VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[BobTheDuck]

I really don't know. Possibly ? Is hard because I can't forget what I know, so I can't really truthfully answer the question. I think that even if I could forget what I know and Ocean changes the script, there still would be a hole in the story. Maybe it is a Theseus Ship situation, how much can a story change and still be the same story ? Remove Leia as a LI, completely changes her as a character and the story, at least from my perspective. So if Ocean decides to go this route, this interactions will not be simply
recontextualized, they will be out of place, comments like: " how does she dare takes what is mine" and others, even the frame of the scenes... I don't know if is my knowledge is tainting my view or not. As the game currently is thought, I would argue that there is plenty of sexual tension between the two, about how it will be tomorrow, only Ocean can say. And maybe not even him.

But those dialogues and interactions would not exist, the dialogues will change, maybe some scenes will change. What we mean is, it's too easy to rewrite the story so that it only seems that Leia is angry with her brother for abandoning her, and not for anything else. Anyway, we have to wait, nothing is written yet, maybe by January or February we will have the answers.

This is what I'm getting at, because historically I remember old WiaB too much, so there's always a part of me that assumes William and Leia's relationship is the same as that. Take all of that away though, and we have a couple of flashbacks of William being self interested, and past Leia was the one pushing him into a relationship, while current Leia is pushing him away. There's coldness and resentment from her as her main attitude. Compare that to Katie where there is playfulness in the flirting, sometimes coldness or anger, but sometimes there are charming moments. There are no charming moments with Leia right now, nothing like that one flashback in current time. She is basically antagonistic and adversarial, always confrontational. In the scene by the pool, it feels like Leia is more trying to hurt William for his infidelities than seduce him, and that's the tension I'm finding.

The other thing at play, is that WIlliam has reverted to what he last knew of each character, and is reminding them of their previous frame of reference - ie Sven the bibi, Dana/Jabba, Katie/fish etc. He's trying to re-establish where he left off, but remember what he says at the farm about Leia seeing him as just a dumb meathead - he's got to make sure she thinks he's only chasing tail and can't think. His whole attitude with Miru is to find out, push Leia's buttons and manipulate her so he's not the one being played.

As sorco is saying, everything is early days and changing. We have to find out if Ocean is keeping Leia as a LI, what the new dynamic is. We really need chapter 4 to work these things out.

 

[LHDLLB]

This is what I'm getting at, because historically I remember old WiaB too much, so there's always a part of me that assumes William and Leia's relationship is the same as that. Take all of that away though, and we have a couple of flashbacks of William being self interested, and past Leia was the one pushing him into a relationship, while current Leia is pushing him away. There's coldness and resentment from her as her main attitude. Compare that to Katie where there is playfulness in the flirting, sometimes coldness or anger, but sometimes there are charming moments. There are no charming moments with Leia right now, nothing like that one flashback in current time. She is basically antagonistic and adversarial, always confrontational. In the scene by the pool, it feels like Leia is more trying to hurt William for his infidelities than seduce him, and that's the tension I'm finding.

I understand you, but I don't think that aggressiveness excludes sexual tension. Not uncommon they are side by side, that is why BDSM is a thing, now I am not arguing that this is what that scene entails. But Leia wanting to punishing him does not excludes a sexual tension, she pushes him away but later initiates contact. I don't know what Ocean will do, maybe remove Leia as a LI is a lot simpler than I assume. My point is that, there is plenty of sexual tension in the game, not only that but references to what they did as children, the first 3 chapters leads to the confrontation of the Twins. Now if the sexual tension existis only in my eyes because I have prior knowledge, I can't say, I don't think so. But is not a question that I am able to answer.

 

[BobTheDuck]

I understand you, but I don't think that aggressiveness excludes sexual tension. Not uncommon they are side by side, that is why BDSM is a thing, now I am not arguing that this is what that scene entails. But Leia wanting to punishing him does not excludes a sexual tension, she pushes him away but later initiates contact. I don't know what Ocean will do, maybe remove Leia as a LI is a lot simpler than I assume. My point is that, there is plenty of sexual tension in the game, not only that but references to what they did as children, the first 3 chapters leads to the confrontation of the Twins. Now if the sexual tension existis only in my eyes because I have prior knowledge, I can't say, I don't think so. But is not a question that I am able to answer.

I understand what you're saying also, but if I phrase it like this, the important relationship dynamic for the plot currently is that Leia is antagonistic to William. Katie is going between flirty and antagonistic, and this isn't really central to the plot, although it will affect it. When Katie forgets to be angry, she tries pushing William's buttons just for the hell of it, plenty of teasing both ways. With Leia, William is on guard trying to find out where he stands and Leia is a porcupine, every time she gets close I'm waiting for her to strike. Their dynamic is potentially more important to the plot than the trigger of Helen's accident.

The story implies there is unresolved business between them, 100%, but the tension can be Leia wanting to punish him, using his male 'weakness' against him (as Vanessa would say), but she could be completely uninterested in a sexual aspect of punishment, and solely interested in revenge. She says "how dare Monica take what's mine" but then tries to push William into seducing Monica. This is far more a cold strategy. The emotional outbusts at the police station and at the club feel as likely a response from an abandoned twin sister (who had a mental issue that destroyed her physical health over he twin's absence) as an abandoned LI.

There's nothing that really confirms Leia sees William as an LI right now, and from William's side, is he trying to fix his percieved guilt, or rekindle the flame? Either reading makes sense, each has its own peculiarities. I'd say that when William is talking with Dylan or on his own, and in the scene with Katie in the kitchen after the pooljob, we see calculating William, who is not an idiot. That William is there the whole time, the asshole buffoon is partially a mask (although, yes he is still an asshole at plenty of times).

 

[LHDLLB]

I understand what you're saying also, but if I phrase it like this, the important relationship dynamic for the plot currently is that Leia is antagonistic to William. Katie is going between flirty and antagonistic, and this isn't really central to the plot, although it will affect it. When Katie forgets to be angry, she tries pushing William's buttons just for the hell of it, plenty of teasing both ways. With Leia, William is on guard trying to find out where he stands and Leia is a porcupine, every time she gets close I'm waiting for her to strike. Their dynamic is potentially more important to the plot than the trigger of Helen's accident.

The story implies there is unresolved business between them, 100%, but the tension can be Leia wanting to punish him, using his male 'weakness' against him (as Vanessa would say), but she could be completely uninterested in a sexual aspect of punishment, and solely interested in revenge. She says "how dare Monica take what's mine" but then tries to push William into seducing Monica. This is far more a cold strategy. The emotional outbusts at the police station and at the club feel as likely a response from an abandoned twin sister (who had a mental issue that destroyed her physical health over he twin's absence) as an abandoned LI.

There's nothing that really confirms Leia sees William as an LI right now, and from William's side, is he trying to fix his percieved guilt, or rekindle the flame? Either reading makes sense, each has its own peculiarities. I'd say that when William is talking with Dylan or on his own, and in the scene with Katie in the kitchen after the pooljob, we see calculating William, who is not an idiot. That William is there the whole time, the asshole buffoon is partially a mask (although, yes he is still an asshole at plenty of times).

I am in a hard position because I don't disagree with you, I can understand your point of view, but I can't forget what I know to engage with it. Maybe to someone who has no knowledge, it will work just fine, maybe even better. For me thought, I can't make sense of it, none of the Leia actions from the pool scene, to Katie comments, to the exchanges between Leia and William, to Monica, to the breakingdowns none of this can work for me if Leia is not a LI with a past with William. If Ocean retcon it, I will be sad, but is his story in the end of day. I just can't say it will be the story that captivated me, because will be a different story It can be even a better one, I don't know, it just can't be the same.

 

[Turret]

I am in a hard position because I don't disagree with you, I can understand your point of view, but I can't forget what I know to engage with it. Maybe to someone who has no knowledge, it will work just fine, maybe even better. For me thought, I can't make sense of it, none of the Leia actions from the pool scene, to Katie comments, to the exchanges between Leia and William, to Monica, to the breakingdowns none of this can work for me if Leia is not a LI with a past with William. If Ocean retcon it, I will be sad, but is his story in the end of day. I just can't say it will be the story that captivated me, because will be a different story It can be even a better one, I don't know, it just can't be the same.

I agree with you 100%, that another major retcon would be a mistake. The rectcons so far are already openening up the seams of the story. Making the twins the only ones related and now possibly taking Leia of the list of LIs would transform Wiab in a dime a dozen story about a runaway returning home to his "tenants".
Wiab´s major pull are the action in the shadows, the crime story elements and yes, the relationship of Willi and Leia, where it was more the question of when and which way it happens, than if they finally come together, find a way to include Miru and have some hushed up kids for SG to explore.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

I understand what you're saying also, but if I phrase it like this, the important relationship dynamic for the plot currently is that Leia is antagonistic to William. Katie is going between flirty and antagonistic, and this isn't really central to the plot, although it will affect it. When Katie forgets to be angry, she tries pushing William's buttons just for the hell of it, plenty of teasing both ways. With Leia, William is on guard trying to find out where he stands and Leia is a porcupine, every time she gets close I'm waiting for her to strike. Their dynamic is potentially more important to the plot than the trigger of Helen's accident.

The story implies there is unresolved business between them, 100%, but the tension can be Leia wanting to punish him, using his male 'weakness' against him (as Vanessa would say), but she could be completely uninterested in a sexual aspect of punishment, and solely interested in revenge. She says "how dare Monica take what's mine" but then tries to push William into seducing Monica. This is far more a cold strategy. The emotional outbusts at the police station and at the club feel as likely a response from an abandoned twin sister (who had a mental issue that destroyed her physical health over he twin's absence) as an abandoned LI.

There's nothing that really confirms Leia sees William as an LI right now, and from William's side, is he trying to fix his percieved guilt, or rekindle the flame? Either reading makes sense, each has its own peculiarities. I'd say that when William is talking with Dylan or on his own, and in the scene with Katie in the kitchen after the pooljob, we see calculating William, who is not an idiot. That William is there the whole time, the asshole buffoon is partially a mask (although, yes he is still an asshole at plenty of times).

Wait a minute, are we assuming that Ocean wants to totally change the relationship with Leia? But wouldn't this drastically change the whole story?

 

[BobTheDuck]

Wait a minute, are we assuming that Ocean wants to totally change his relationship with Leia? But wouldn't this drastically change the whole story?

No, I'm just pointing out that there is far more sexual tension between William and Katie than there is between William and Leia, because most of the tension from Leia is her holding a grudge, not her wanting sex. And there is no clear indication that William is doing anything other than trying to make peace, and trying to fit in with his previous role. At least currently. Mon probably trusts William more than Leia does right now.

If Ocean does change the nature of Willi and Leia's relationship and future story that drastically (removing Leia as a LI), he'd better have an even more compelling plot, as very few people will be happy. But right, everything is up in the air until CH4 gives us some clarity. William's on route to Leia's house, I'm sure they'll have a heart to heart regarding why he has been absent, and we'll find out a lot about the future roadmap from that discussion I'm sure.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

No, I'm just pointing out that there is far more sexual tension between William and Katie than there is between William and Leia, because most of the tension from Leia is her holding a grudge, not her wanting sex. And there is no clear indication that William is doing anything other than trying to make peace, and trying to fit in with his previous role. At least currently. Mon probably trusts William more than Leia does right now.

If Ocean does change the nature of Willi and Leia's relationship and future story that drastically (removing Leia as a LI), he'd better have an even more compelling plot, as very few people will be happy. But right, everything is up in the air until CH4 gives us some clarity. William's on route to Leia's house, I'm sure they'll have a heart to heart regarding why he has been absent, and we'll find out a lot about the future roadmap from that discussion I'm sure.

As usual when it comes to Ocean we can only hope XD

 

[sorco2003]

I am in a hard position because I don't disagree with you, I can understand your point of view, but I can't forget what I know to engage with it. Maybe to someone who has no knowledge, it will work just fine, maybe even better. For me thought, I can't make sense of it, none of the Leia actions from the pool scene, to Katie comments, to the exchanges between Leia and William, to Monica, to the breakingdowns none of this can work for me if Leia is not a LI with a past with William. If Ocean retcon it, I will be sad, but is his story in the end of day. I just can't say it will be the story that captivated me, because will be a different story It can be even a better one, I don't know, it just can't be the same.

I totally understand and agree with you. Wiab is no longer what attracted me, and the changes will take it even further away from what attracted my attention so many years ago. Although the mental exercises we do are on sand (and shifting sand at that) they are necessary exercises for those of us who "want" to continue with the story, and who are seeing how it mutates in favor of SG. The changes do not come from the creative need, but from the need to protect the source of money. Normally these things do not end well, that is why we choose to do this mental gymnastics to sustain hope. If it manages to reach new generations, maybe it will even be a success, for the same old ones it is just a sum of frustrations.

 

[Maviarab]

I understand you, but I don't think that aggressiveness excludes sexual tension. Not uncommon they are side by side, that is why BDSM is a thing,

Sorry...but it really isn't.

 

[LHDLLB]

The changes do not come from the creative need, but from the need to protect the source of money. Normally these things do not end well, that is why we choose to do this mental gymnastics to sustain hope. If it manages to reach new generations, maybe it will even be a success, for the same old ones it is just a sum of frustrations.

honestly I find easy to cope if it is a pragmatic decision than Ocean changing the story once again. At least he still has the same vision and ate circumstances out of his control that obliged him to do it, the man got eat. I find the alternative, that Ocean change the story every time he finds himself in a tight spot, much more damaging, more so as the script is supposed already written.

Sorry...but it really isn't.

I know. My point was that from someone from the outside, it is aggressive. Maybe I did not used the best example as I was tired, but I did not intend to say BDSM= aggression.

 

[Chut12]

Question why they use patreon can't they hire a developer to make a site where people can subscribe or give money using cards or other payment sources?

 

[sorco2003]

Question why they use patreon can't they hire a developer to make a site where people can subscribe or give money using cards or other payment sources?

There are many reasons why...
Convenience
Simplicity in the operation
Confidence in the platform
Time to deal with payment methods administration
etc
etc
etc

 

[AnimeHentaiGamer]

any news on this? or steam update release?

 

[sorco2003]

any news on this? or steam update release?

A lot of news, but zero release date.

 

[AnimeHentaiGamer]

funny thing is Oceanlab loves ntr and all his games have it but people keep crying over it so he removes them and keeps them as non cannon easter egg renders you can find their games.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

(besides praising Katie)

I thought that was the only purpose of this topic

 

[sorco2003]

funny thing is Oceanlab loves ntr and all his games have it but people keep crying over it so he removes them and keeps them as non cannon easter egg renders you can find their games.

eh?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[lova lia]

next update ??

 

[Tremonia]

next update ??

When it's ready.