VN Ren'Py WVM [S2 Ch. 1 Ep. 13 B3] [Braindrop]

[PhazeUFO]

Just edited my post with a bigger font instead just bold text.

This still doesn't dispute my claim though. I am only saying what he posted was that he had to take a break from this site for his own mental health. I am not claiming it was or wasn't an excuse or that effected his productivity, just that it was what happened. At one point at least he did care about what the thread thought.

 

[moskyx]

This is the main issue, isnt it. The constant posts to say the next big update is just days away. Most other devs would never dream of making such an announcement unless it really was true, because they understand the reputational damage that would come if they didn't follow through.

The fact that there has still been nothing, and the big 2k update which was nearly finished 6 months ago still hasn't been posted, and whatever hes worked on up to now still hasn't been posted, the only logical answer is that... there isn't anything? Or yknow, not nearly anything as much as has been claimed - maybe he has a few hundred renders and some ideas scribbled down in a notepad... He has been making stuff up to generate hype and keep the patreons paying. Its the only logical answer. I'm sure his intentions are true, he intends to do the things he says but just hasn't and can't bring himself to admit it.

I wonder why he makes the claim that the update is ready to go, even when it isn't? Is it really just a spiral of perfectionism? A spiral of editing and re-editing and never being happy with the product? But if so, why claim its basically ready if hes still planning to rework it?

Its got to be about the money, I'm sorry but it just has to be. No one is this naive.

He has been saying he had mental issues basically since day 1, with his impostor syndrome, ADHD, and so on. He said that when he was delivering like a clockwork, it's nothing new, no bullshit invented to justify these recent delays. Unless, of course, you go full paranoid and think he was just paving the ground to 'start milking' more than two years later, which honestly seems like a stretch. When mental issues come into scene I think we should be at least a bit more cautious with our assumptions and take into account that what we consider 'normal' simply doesn't work like that anymore, not even when you are perfectly aware of your issues. You simply can't function.

Let's imagine just for a second he is saying the truth: he renders like mad, thinks he got everything ready to go, then takes another look at it, self-doubt creeps in and he thinks he can improve this a little and that other thing a bit more... and two days later everything is upside down, and people start whining and not only complaining about his delay but accusing him of milking when he is positive he's not doing that, he simply can't deliver what he promised. That is toxic even if unintendedly so.

 

[Ozzfest]

This still doesn't dispute my claim though. I am only saying what he posted was that he had to take a break from this site for his own mental health. I am not claiming it was or wasn't an excuse or that effected his productivity, just that it was what happened. At one point at least he did care about what the thread thought.

And I have said that I'm not sure if that's the true reason why he is "less active here for his own mental health". What part you didn't understand?

 

[PhazeUFO]

And I have said that I'm not sure if that's the true reason why he is "less active here for his own mental health". What part you didn't understand?

I understood it, but it was answering something I never said. I don't know if it's the true reason, just what he said. You can call him a liar all you want, but don't try to put words in my mouth.

He has been saying he had mental issues basically since day 1, with his impostor syndrome, ADHD, and so on. He said that when he was delivering like a clockwork, it's nothing new, no bullshit invented to justify these recent delays. Unless, of course, you go full paranoid and think he was just paving the ground to 'start milking' more than two years later, which honestly seems like a stretch. When mental issues come into scene I think we should be at least a bit more cautious with our assumptions and take into account that what we consider 'normal' simply doesn't work like that anymore, not even when you are perfectly aware of your issues. You simply can't function.

Let's imagine just for a second he is saying the truth: he renders like mad, thinks he got everything ready to go, then takes another look at it, self-doubt creeps in and he thinks he can improve this a little and that other thing a bit more... and two days later everything is upside down, and people start whining and not only complaining about his delay but accusing him of milking when he is positive he's not doing that, he simply can't deliver what he promised. That is toxic even if unintendedly so.

This is what does make the claim more believable though.

 

[bluetack_man]

Let's imagine just for a second he is saying the truth: he renders like mad, thinks he got everything ready to go, then takes another look at it, self-doubt creeps in and he thinks he can improve this a little and that other thing a bit more... and two days later everything is upside down, and people start whining and not only complaining about his delay but accusing him of milking when he is positive he's not doing that, he simply can't deliver what he promised. That is toxic even if unintendedly so.

This is a really good point of course and yeah maybe you are right! Ultimately we'll never know but I don't really buy it myself... if that was true and he was rendering his balls off and had everything ready to go, but tweeked something here and something there... how did 2k turn into 200 renders? He said that he had to rework a locker scene or something, how does that invalidate 2k ready-to-go renders which I assume also includes a few hours worth of gameplay and code?

Unless, of course, you go full paranoid and think he was just paving the ground to 'start milking' more than two years later, which honestly seems like a stretch.

Yep that would be a stretch! And definitely not what I'm suggesting. What I am suggesting is that he was, say, 50% of the way towards his target, and prematurely annouced the big update before it was ready (to generate hype and money) with the intention of delivering, of course. This would also tie in nicely with the ADHD... Then, oh crap, something happened and he can't deliver on the announcement but he also can't take it back... so another excuse is needed, and then another, and another.

And here we are.

 

[jonnyd901]

This is the main issue, isnt it. The constant posts to say the next big update is just days away. Most other devs would never dream of making such an announcement unless it really was true, because they understand the reputational damage that would come if they didn't follow through.

The fact that there has still been nothing, and the big 2k update which was nearly finished 6 months ago still hasn't been posted, and whatever hes worked on up to now still hasn't been posted, the only logical answer is that... there isn't anything? Or yknow, not nearly anything as much as has been claimed - maybe he has a few hundred renders and some ideas scribbled down in a notepad... He has been making stuff up to generate hype and keep the patreons paying. Its the only logical answer. I'm sure his intentions are true, he intends to do the things he says but just hasn't and can't bring himself to admit it.

I wonder why he makes the claim that the update is ready to go, even when it isn't? Is it really just a spiral of perfectionism? A spiral of editing and re-editing and never being happy with the product? But if so, why claim its basically ready if hes still planning to rework it?

Its got to be about the money, I'm sorry but it just has to be. No one is this naive.

This is why I'm putting money into Artemis instead of here I did in the past but until he can get up to other devs standards. Just looking at Artemis now it dropped in January looking like the next update could be in August so that's 7 months. At the moment it's at 2300 renders with 9 scenes to finish but dig.b along with others I've had their problems. He's changed the menu, had to get rid of soundtracks and get new ones composed, altered old scenes even made a substory for one of the characters.
Thinking of this game along with the others with different pathing,soundtracks ect,ect 2k renders should be easily achieved since it ain't as complex as them. Drifty dropped his video last week his update came out the last time this did he's been plagued with problems sorting out L.O.F. but got it there in the end WVM should have easily surpassed these if the 2k renders were done 6 months ago

BD has really got to pull something special together now because there is no damage control to sort it out in the future

 

[Ozzfest]

I understood it, but it was answering something I never said. I don't know if it's the true reason, just what he said. You can call him a liar all you want, but don't try to put words in my mouth.

Are you dense? Calm down and pay attention.
You were saying DB posted here (we all know that) related to him not being active here because his reasons, right? I just quoted your post saying that I doubt the real reason was that. That has nothing to do with you and no one is putting words in your mouth.

 

[Riggnarock]

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Yo

So it's been quite a few days of turmoil.
If it can go wrong it has recently... which tends to be the case when I let myself get into these crunch time scenarios.

I've been awake for about 25 hours now.
I have been stressing to finish these changes before the end of the month because I fucking want to live up to something I set out to do for once but luck isn't on my side right now.
I take adderall for my ADHD and it's been amazing for me 99% of the time but yesterday when I took it, it led me to an all day long panic attack that I did my best to fight through but it was a losing battle.
Anyway, that's not the important bit.

You guys have asked for more transparency so let me explain what exactly has been happening.
I feel like an idiot right now but I'm also happy to have finally fixed one of the issues that have plagued my animations forever.
So keep in mind that WVM is my first game ever and first time ever working on something like this. I've taught myself everything for the most part and I've just figured out a way to do things that work for me.
I've always been someone to try and get things to work on my own... whether it be shit that would break around the house or electronics or whatever.

And I've encountered thousands of issues while making WVM and for 99% of them I just found a way to make it work.
The main problem that has stopped me from being finished with the redone animations is a thing I like to call the "Royal wave".
For example, let's say the MC is "Hugging" a girl from behind and he needs to grab her hips for some extra stability. As he is going in for it he needs to pull himself or her and for that to happen his hands and arms need to stay mostly locked while the rest of his body moves.
To animate that isn't too tough, just put the hands where they need to go right?
Well, in doing so... all of the frames in-between the keyframes have to figure out how exactly to move the arms and hands to make it from point A to point B.
What sucks is that the interpolation always would end up doing something that looked like a royal wave. Where instead of staying locked on it would roll or slide down and then back up into place because that's just how the arm had to move to go between the points.
It was awful and looks awful, I made it work in the past by either just removing the arms from the shot or going frame by frame and posing the hand for each and every single render. Which takes hours and is super easy to fuck up.

This is something I've always struggled with and since I technically could fix it I never really tried to find a better solution.
Like I said, I've been awake for 25 hours now. 20 of those have been spent working on fixing this and another thing that I got fixed as well.
And the solution was so simple that it hurts.
There's a built in tool that lets you lock limbs and such in place and they wont move... and I just didn't know it existed... turning an 8 hour job into a 20 minute job.
I definitely feel foolish but I'm also happy to have learned something new that will help tremendously in the future.


Okay, long explanation just to say that I don't think the 700 render update will be ready by June 29th or 30th. But it won't be much longer at all. There is a 300 render update that's pretty much ready to go though.
I've been stressing super fucking hard about getting out a solid update before the month's end.
I tried to tweak too much. I've definitely been feeling the pressure to have to put out something good so I tried to add stuff or make something look better but it mainly led to just more frustration and stress. Not my best play.
I'm human, I've been through a fuck ton recently so I'm not gonna beat myself up.

I know a lot of you are frustrated as well and just know that I've never once tried to dupe any of you or anything.
WVM is my hobby and I do this for fun. Stressing this hard about updates and all that is the complete opposite of fun and I'll be honest when I say that I'm feeling pretty jaded about a lot of things and I desperately want to get past this. I want it out more than you do... is what I'm trying to say.
and if you aren't comfortable supporting me right now I completely understand. You owe me nothing. You've played and enjoyed my game and that's all I could ever ask for.
If you're feeling any sort of doubt then please remove your pledge but please join the discord first so you can still play the chunks as they come out.
You can always rejoin when I'm back on my shit.


Okay, so main point of this post time.
I've spent a lot of time stressing about how to deliver this update right now. I was trying to think of what the majority would want and then it hit me that I literally have the ability to poll that.
I'll admit I'm reluctant to since the last poll didn't go very well but fuck it.


So the two options are.

A:
"Release them in smaller chunks. The first one (300-ish renders) on the 29th and the other (400-ish renders) the moment it is finished (Likely July 1st-3rd)"

or

B:
"Wait and release them together (700-ish renders) the moment it is finished. (July 1st-3rd)"


As far as my personal opinion goes: I do believe the two chunks together make for a better update. But I also have no issues splitting it up especially given the circumstances. I'm cool with either.
I know my word doesn't mean a whole lot right now when it comes to release times... but these are being stuck to.
If A is chosen it will likely be released toward 8-9pm EST as I have things I have to do during that day.
Either way, something is being released soon or I'll pause pledges until 2024.

Poll ends at 4am EST. Whichever has majority vote will be the one I go with.
And this post will self destruct after whichever vote is picked gets released.


And as always, thank you all so much for everything.

A - 26 %

B - 73 %

233 votes

Or: C - Release it as it is currently, you will eventualy find things to tweak/modify/fix later on anyway, even if its the improved version you're releasing in a few days.
i guess that option was there, for the A+B=99% and the 1% voted for the as it is currently

 

[PhazeUFO]

Are you dense? Calm down and pay attention.
You were saying DB posted here (we all know that) related to him not being active here because his reasons, right? I just quoted your post saying that I doubt the real reason was that. That has nothing to do with you and no one is putting words in your mouth.

I was not denying that it could have been a lie. I stated that I can neither confirm nor deny. However, you were not direct and then refused to explicitly state this when I mentioned it. You bolded a part of my post, but that looks more like you are attacking my claim rather than his.

 

[moskyx]

This is a really good point of course and yeah maybe you are right! Ultimately we'll never know but I don't really buy it myself... if that was true and he was rendering his balls off and had everything ready to go, but tweeked something here and something there... how did 2k turn into 200 renders? He said that he had to rework a locker scene or something, how does that invalidate 2k ready-to-go renders which I assume also includes a few hours worth of gameplay and code?



Yep that would be a stretch! And definitely not what I'm suggesting. What I am suggesting is that he was, say, 50% of the way towards his target, and prematurely annouced the big update before it was ready (to generate hype and money) with the intention of delivering, of course. This would also tie in nicely with the ADHD... Then, oh crap, something happened and he can't deliver on the announcement but he also can't take it back... so another excuse is needed, and then another, and another.

And here we are.

That's exactly my point. We won't ever know for sure what happened because we don't have access to his computer. So I can think of a few reasons why he can be saying the truth (I made a couple of posts the other day explaining how I was in a somewhat similar situation with a project I was working on, and how those minor tweaks ended up destroying the whole thing to a point it couldn't be even launched despite being working perfectly before), and you can only think of the milking reason. Of course you are free to think that but just be aware that, if for some reason, I'm right, your attitude is really hurtful. So, even if I can not disregard the milking thing at all, I choose to be cautious about it because, in the end, all you can win with this is bragging rights for calling someone out first -which isn't really a big prize- but if I'm right we are talking about a real person's mental health. And that is a serious thing.

 

[Krynh]

Honestly the whole pirate site arguement is a double edged sword.

Yes, it may be a pirate site but it is also the best way of advertising for AVN's

 

[Ozzfest]

I was not denying that it could have been a lie. I stated that I can neither confirm nor deny. However, you were not direct and then refused to explicitly state this when I mentioned it. You bolded a part of my post, but that looks more like you are attacking my claim rather than his.

That's the part you misunderstood. I was not attacking your claim, not even close. I'm sorry if that's how you felt. Your post just popped and I've said what I believe about his post. Nothing more.

 

[GingerbreadMan]

how did 2k turn into 200 renders?

BD said he had 2000+ renders, but due to the reworks changed timeline, and his self-doubt they all underwent his adjustments and rearranging that resulted in more rework, additional renders, and stuff.
He then aimed for instead of releasing a multiple k render update, to do this in chunks, like 3-4 chunks of 700 each. The first chunk got split in those 2-3 small update bits in June with 200-300 renders each.

So, if you believe him, there are still 2000+ renders, but due to everything going on in a less ready state than when he started to readjust them and could be released in chunks of several hundred renders when refitted again, resulting in a potentially pretty steady stream of updates over the next weeks/months.

Depending on how many new renders he might be able to produce besides that or not, it might be difficult to identify them as legitly produced that long ago or created along the way now to cover up though. So even with releasing everything now, in the end, it will come down to how much benefit of the doubt everyone is willing to give him.

 

[bluetack_man]

Of course you are free to think that but just be aware that, if for some reason, I'm right, your attitude is really hurtful.

This is a really good point and to that end I retract my previous statement.

I don't think its right to not be able to challenge BD's statements simply because it could be hurtful if you're wrong, but.... like most people I'm kind of exhausting my ability to care at this point. In the end I guess it doesn't matter if he was telling the truth or not. So I'll shut up about it lol

So, if you believe him, there are still 2000+ renders, but due to everything going on in a less ready state than when he started to readjust them and could be released in chunks of several hundred renders when refitted again, resulting in a potentially pretty steady stream of updates over the next weeks/months.

Whatever happened, moving forward he needs to rethink his work ethic/strategy. I don't think he can continue this game of "its ready, no its not, its ready, no its not". And you say that there could be a "potentially pretty steady stream of updates over the next weeks/months" yeah I'll hold my comments on this too... lol.

 

[GingerbreadMan]

And you say that there could be a "potentially pretty steady stream of updates over the next weeks/months" yeah I'll hold my comments on this too... lol.

I tried to summarize what we were told as neutrally as possible.

Like I wrote before, for now, I think he didn't lie but got himself into shit because of his mental health and some 'suboptimal' decisions.
When he first announced he had the first 200 renders refitted and thought that was a strategy to go forward, I hoped he got himself back on his feet and might start that stream of updates.
With the latest shared posts, that might or might not be the case.
And like I also said before, while I think he is honest in his posts, and I do sympathize with him and was willing to keep supporting him while he was battling his issues in a kind of sick-leave, this can't be an infinite state and has to turn around at some point.
In my mind, VN developers should be able to get sick or have some vacation without having all support removed immediately.
But this is his job right now - and there is a point where you have to come back to your job - or face the consequences of not doing so. I will stop my support in case that stream of updates doesn't come.
Then, if I am right and he gets back on his feet, I will most likely at some point start supporting him again.
If not, I'll be either deeply sorry for him or deeply disappointed in him.

 

[jamdan]

I believe BD when he talks about his personal issues. I think he has always overshared way too much though. This leads to a lot of toxicity around here. People either dismiss or attack him on those issues, which makes it worse for him. Sometimes it's hard to tell if his posts are game development updates or his personal blog. He has had these issues since the very beginning. He needs to have a barrier between his personal and professional life. I know BD's issues better than I know my own neighbors.

But I don't believe the stuff he says about the updates or delays. I don't think a 2k render exists. I don't think he'll release 2 updates this month. If they do exist, he needs to force himself to relase them and then take a break. Literally don't even look at the comments. Pause patreon for a month or two or three. Don't go on discord. Don't look on here. Unplug and sort out your personal issues, and in a few months come back and hopefully see people talking about how good the latest update is.

He has to break the cycle. Whether it's the cycle of personal issues or the cycle of lies. If not, he's totally screwed.

 

[hbppppah]

I love when BD doesnt release anything. The thread gets so much more entertaining.

 

[PhazeUFO]

I g

That's the part you misunderstood. I was not attacking your claim, not even close. I'm sorry if that's how you felt. Your post just popped and I've said what I believe about his post. Nothing more.

I get that. I was just concerned that it was what you thought I was saying. With that misunderstanding settled, I too wonder if it was mental health issues, or just not wanting to be called out since it is much harder for devs to censor on this platform than discord/patreon.

 

[monk_56]

Wonder if the narrative style will change at all based on these big events in BD life.

It was a bit aimless before. Maybe it'll be a shake-up.

 

[Rindarion]

So what the odds he actually releases an update on July 1st-3rd as stated? Thread should run a betting pool at this rate.

Yeah, i call bullshit on the July 1st-3rd fantasy date. Somewhere around there he will make ANOTHER post with yet ANOTHER bullshit sobstory/excuse as to why he cant release the fucking update and his white knight defenders will just bend over and take it up the ass as they always do.