VN Ren'Py WVM [S2 Ch. 1 Ep. 13 B3] [Braindrop]

[moskyx]

I know games are important, and thats why i think you as person playing the VN should have ZERO weight on wether the game is won or lost.

It automatically adds a lot of workload to the Dev for the added complexity because, as you said, he knows have to create two branches of the story, one where your team is winning and one where your team is not.

The game is working in part because its linear and streamlined, and because 100% of the Devs workload is appreciated. As soon as his time is split in branches that half the people wont see, then it creates new problems.

I think the Dev should decide if you are a winner or not, and how the story unfolds, and keep the game without alternate branches that add unnecesary workload.

You make some valid points. Having 2 paths (winner vs loser) with different outcomes regarding girls seem a bad choice (double the work, half the fun). That's why I think MC won't have a crucial impact on whether WVM wins or not, just in the way the games are played. Will he go for 50+ points per game or try to get 5 players of his team with 10+ppg? Like we saw in those few practices, he can score himself or pass the ball, and in that case the others will step up. There won't be wrong choices, girls will love you either way, maybe some teammates will be more or less friendly depending on your style but nothing major, I guess.

 

[Alma_Elma]

You make some valid points. Having 2 paths (winner vs loser) with different outcomes regarding girls seem a bad choice (double the work, half the fun). That's why I think MC won't have a crucial impact on whether WVM wins or not, just in the way the games are played. Will he go for 50+ points per game or try to get 5 players of his team with 10+ppg? Like we saw in those few practices, he can score himself or pass the ball, and in that case the others will step up. There won't be wrong choices, girls will love you either way, maybe some teammates will be more or less friendly depending on your style but nothing major, I guess.

The only way I can see it being major is if it affects the end of the game only, like the last few updates of the game itself, it's pretty much the only point where you can do pretty big branching with the lzss effort, since each branch wont need that much work each.

 

[iroll1s]

The game is working in part because its linear and streamlined, and because 100% of the Devs workload is appreciated. As soon as his time is split in branches that half the people wont see, then it creates new problems.
I think the Dev should decide if you are a winner or not, and how the story unfolds, and keep the game without alternate branches that add unnecesary workload.

Good point. Although once you take agency away from the players, they’ll revolt no matter what. This is also the driving force behind the illusion of choice: In some video games we get to pick between meaningless dialogue options, where others will just prompt us to push a specific button on our controller to move the story along, effectively “playing” a cutscene.

The game works, I think, because so far, we are all winners here. Don’t want a girl? Don’t pursue her. There are no other serious predators around. No big deal.

But at the same time our other choices still matter and create minor deviations in the story (though not exactly branches).

Spoiler: mild spoilery examples

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While a “Game Over” screen in case of a lost game seems highly unlikely, it could simply result in changed dialogues to maybe one missed scene with a potential love interest.

…because let’s face it: The team sucks. It is highly unlikely they will win every game, even in this beautiful world of wholesome harems and supertall, faceless basketball players.

 

[juan palote]

Good point. Although once you take agency away from the players, they’ll revolt no matter what. This is also the driving force behind the illusion of choice: In some video games we get to pick between meaningless dialogue options, where others will just prompt us to push a specific button on our controller to move the story along, effectively “playing” a cutscene.

The game works, I think, because so far, we are all winners here. Don’t want a girl? Don’t pursue her. There are no other serious predators around. No big deal.

But at the same time our other choices still matter and create minor deviations in the story (though not exactly branches).

Spoiler: mild spoilery examples

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While a “Game Over” screen in case of a lost game seems highly unlikely, it could simply result in changed dialogues to maybe one missed scene with a potential love interest.

…because let’s face it: The team sucks. It is highly unlikely they will win every game, even in this beautiful world of wholesome harems and supertall, faceless basketball players.

But we are not talking about taking away agency from players, we are talking about not giving agency they never had.

The game is a huge success without players having that agency, and it is my opinion that the work that comes from giving that agency will not be worth.

Again, no one here is playing WVM to play a basjetball game, the basketball scenery is the background story, not the main purpose of the game

 

[juan palote]

You make some valid points. Having 2 paths (winner vs loser) with different outcomes regarding girls seem a bad choice (double the work, half the fun). That's why I think MC won't have a crucial impact on whether WVM wins or not, just in the way the games are played. Will he go for 50+ points per game or try to get 5 players of his team with 10+ppg? Like we saw in those few practices, he can score himself or pass the ball, and in that case the others will step up. There won't be wrong choices, girls will love you either way, maybe some teammates will be more or less friendly depending on your style but nothing major, I guess.

What would be the point of it then? If it changes nothing, why do it?

I still think the profit is not worth the cost.

The risk of changing the game like that is too high and i dont think WVM will get any more successful than it is currently for having that.

People dont come here to play a basketball simulator game, and the Dev spending his valuable time into doing it in my humble opinion will only hurt the game more than help it

 

[TundraLupus]

What would be the point of it then? If it changes nothing, why do it?

I still think the profit is not worth the cost.

The risk of changing the game like that is too high and i dont think WVM will get any more successful than it is currently for having that.

People dont come here to play a basketball simulator game, and the Dev spending his valuable time into doing it in my humble opinion will only hurt the game more than help it

So far every time the Mc had a basketball in his hands we were controlling it, it would be extremely weird if in an actual game we had zero input

 

[iroll1s]

People dont come here to play a basketball simulator game, and the Dev spending his valuable time into doing it in my humble opinion will only hurt the game more than help it

It's exactly not about making the game another EA sportstitel. The discussion is: in what way and to what degree should choices lead to a possible outcome. Those choices may very well include dialogues, as well as "pass the ball to X" options.

 

[I'm Not Thea Lundgren!]

Or like 99.9% of the premier league football players drop like a sack of shit and try for a foul

Spoiler: World's best actor and Jason Statham ;)

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[juan palote]

It's exactly not about making the game another EA sportstitel. The discussion is: in what way and to what degree should choices lead to a possible outcome. Those choices may very well include dialogues, as well as "pass the ball to X" options.

Its not what the Dev said

His exact words were

Choice based. Pre game choices and in game choices will determine the outcome.

 

[Alma_Elma]

If I remember, I just need to talk about the cult and I can summon them ?

 

[iroll1s]

Its not what the Dev said

Sorry, I don't follow. (Cue the usual "English isn't my first language" excuse).
Those two paragraphes are pretty much interchangeable, minus the discussion part, because it solely relates to the ongoing thread and not BD's quote.

I accept and even applaud that there will be no virtual sports or simulation type (mini-)games involved. I have this whole aversion to sportsgames (except blood bowl - that's a heck of fun). But talking with your teammates, propping up Harp's self esteem and some basic RPG prompts do not constitute e-sports. That is stuff even a geek like me can manage.

You surely are right in your assumption, a variable outcome of the sportsball matches mean more work and more stress for the Dev (and eventually more time between updates). But even then BD has only to steer us towards certain outcomes. (Winning certainly seems favorable, or are you inclined to work with Ryker?)

 

[UnrealLimits]

If I remember, I just need to talk about the cult and I can summon them ?

What is it you need?

 

[Alma_Elma]

What is it you need?

I just felt like the presence of you guys was lacking in the last few pages

 

[UnrealLimits]

I just felt like the presence of you guys was lacking in the last few pages

Well I usually just lurk and let everyone else reply. Ive hovering around since page one just watching and posting on a few pages.

 

[juan palote]

Sorry, I don't follow. (Cue the usual "English isn't my first language" excuse).
Those two paragraphes are pretty much interchangeable, minus the discussion part, because it solely relates to the ongoing thread and not BD's quote.

I accept and even applaud that there will be no virtual sports or simulation type (mini-)games involved. I have this whole aversion to sportsgames (except blood bowl - that's a heck of fun). But talking with your teammates, propping up Harp's self esteem and some basic RPG prompts do not constitute e-sports. That is stuff even a geek like me can manage.

You surely are right in your assumption, a variable outcome of the sportsball matches mean more work and more stress for the Dev (and eventually more time between updates). But even then BD has only to steer us towards certain outcomes. (Winning certainly seems favorable, or are you inclined to work with Ryker?)

The Dev stated that pre match decisions and decisions within the match will affect the outcome of it.

That means you can potentially win all the matches or lose all the matches, with any combination of them.

It would be virtually impossible for that to not have a BIG impact on the story and develop a minimum of two branches, which i think its a mistake in this particular game, since its clear that by being linear and being streamlined its already a huge success.

Honestly, i see a lot of risk and very little reward in making choices that can affect the outcome of the matches

 

[Krynh]

But even then BD has only to steer us towards certain outcomes. (Winning certainly seems favorable, or are you inclined to work with Ryker?)

Can't imagine wanting to help Ryker. He tried to take my stacy away

 

[iroll1s]

The Dev stated that pre match decisions and decisions within the match will affect the outcome of it.

That means you can potentially win all the matches or lose all the matches, with any combination of them.

It would be virtually impossible for that to not have a BIG impact on the story and develop a minimum of two branches, which i think its a mistake in this particular game, since its clear that by being linear and being streamlined its already a huge success.

Honestly, i see a lot of risk and very little reward in making choices that can affect the outcome of the matches

Ah, yes. Now it is more clear. By, again, paraphrasing what I just said in agreeing with you, you have once again made a point which I totally agree with.

Would you be okay with extending the "illusion of choice" mechanic, which the player is already partly subjected to? This would mean a fixed story progression. You could maybe still have options like "Boink coed " or "Do not boink coed " and "Add female to harem ", I guess. So, no complex branching, no multiple endings, only "missable" content?

Can't imagine wanting to help Ryker. He tried to take my stacy away

Don't Rachel and the main character both agree at some point, that Ryker's plan can't be as simple as that? By revealing his evil betting scheme he cleary only wants to make sure the MC does the exact opposite. So we should probably help him? Except, he probably wants us to think that!
By the way: Not so long ago, somebody even tried to sell me on the idea of Stacy being a plant, send by Ryker to spy on the inner workings of the family.

 

[possibilities4774]

Just my two cents being thrown in here, but I don't see the basketball games being as big of a dilemma as other people seem to make it out to be. For starters, assuming that we're going to play through every single game in the season seems a little ridiculous, I'm hoping and somewhat expecting that BD won't go that route. We'll certainly "play" a handful of games, but if we do play *every* game, we open ourselves to this problem people are having where "oh no we lost every game and this means either the story won't make sense because Harper definitely shouldn't keep her job or BD will have to create two separate routes."

So, simple solution there - play only certain games within the season, gloss over some others. If I were BD I would count most of these skipped events as wins, just enough so that Harp can reasonably keep her job without the player feeling the need to worry about their own game choices resulting in major storyline issues. Even if you lose all the games you do play, Harp doesn't get fired, you still make the playoffs/championship game at the end of the game (or wherever the story goes), etc. If BD feels up for it, they could just have the games that the players actually decide to win/lose impact the overall ending of the game, where winning more games --> better ending somehow, but honestly, the MC seems locked into having a great future either way so the harem will be provided for no matter what happens, imo.

As for the games themselves, easy - make winning the game an incentive, but not necessary. Win the game? Congrats, have extra sex scenes! Fuck Bailey, or Nat, or Emiko, or any of the cheerleaders after winning a game! Have a threesome or an orgy or whatever after a particularly important win! Make progress with Harp, potentially even have some one-off encounters with opposing cheerleaders or random fans or whatever. The point is, these scenes shouldn't be vital to the plot. Win the games and be rewarded. Lose the games and continue on as though nothing happened. Or hell, even if you lose the games, you can have alternate sex scenes - tough loss? Don't worry, Jamie and Shauna will be there to lift your spirits. But again, these scenes should just be bonuses, not story-altering, at least in my humble opinion.

 

[Hordragg]

Bah, fuck it, I give up. I'm just too slow a typer (why yes, maybe also too slow a thinker, thank you for reminding me).

Would you be okay with the "illusion of choice" mechanic, which the player is already partly subjected to? This would mean a fixed story progression. You could still have options like "Boink coed " or "Do not boink coed " and "Add female to harem ", I guess. So, no complex branching, no multiple endings, only "missable" content?

This.

As for the games themselves, easy - make winning the game an incentive, but not necessary. Win the game? Congrats, have extra sex scenes! Fuck Bailey, or Nat, or Emiko, or any of the cheerleaders after winning a game! Have a threesome or an orgy or whatever after a particularly important win! Make progress with Harp, potentially even have some one-off encounters with opposing cheerleaders or random fans or whatever. The point is, these scenes shouldn't be vital to the plot. Win the games and be rewarded. Lose the games and continue on as though nothing happened. Or hell, even if you lose the games, you can have alternate sex scenes - tough loss? Don't worry, Jamie and Shauna will be there to lift your spirits. But again, these scenes should just be bonuses, not story-altering, at least in my humble opinion.

Also this.

 

[iroll1s]

Bah, fuck it, I give up. I'm just too slow a typer (why yes, maybe also too slow a thinker, thank you for reminding me).


This.


Also this.

Not your fault, friend. Some of us are just hot-headed and motivated (or have mutliple instances of OCD and ADHD).
Cheers to you and the person before you. You both pretty much said rather efficiently what I was cleary not able to convey the whole time.
Is anyone else dizzy from running around in circles? Me needs to lie down a bit.