VN Ren'Py Abandoned Angelica's Temptation: From the Beginning [v0.3.1 Patreon] [Saruh]

[rhcp725]

Which will happen, in epic levels of fury. Just realize that there will be parts on other variations that will not go that same way.

 

[italianstallionxxx]

i would be nice if henry turned into a fucking monster. something like sheriff wydell in the devils reject. how far he will go to hurt the people who hurt him

 

[Kassan06969]

I haven't seen any route in the game that doesn't involve BBC, lesbian or the spineless husband. So much for nymphomaniac not with a trite, overdone trope.

 

[rhcp725]

Considering the 4 main characters in the game are the Nympho MC, the black guy, the female bestie that wants her and the loser husband you expect to not have them involved in every path?

 

[Slappy Kinkaid]

Ok first off i never said she was innocent. She has things she's done to attone for. However she was played and used as a weapon against Henry. Do you blame the gun or the guy firing it? Mark lies to her, uses her and treats her like property. He got her hooked on him like a drug by acting like everything she needed. If she didn't do what Mark wanted he wouldn't have had a use for her and would have discarded her like she was nothing. On top of that there are things we know that the general audience is not yet privy to so in interest of avoiding spoiling what's to come i will not fully defend her to my full ability. I'll leave it as it's not black and white with Alice compared to others more deserving of the wrath awaiting them.

Well I agree that it's not as black & white, but there's a lot of different angles to the context here. I mean I do agree, that she was influenced significantly by Mark & Melinda as well as a number of circumstances. But she still has agency & she isn't a mentally addled simpleton. I can accept her judgment being clouded up to a certain point, but the only way we can justify going easy on her would be if we assume that she's THAT incompetent that she can just be manipulated that far, in which case we then also have to ask how she hasn't yet drowned in her own saliva.

I mean let's break it down into segments. Now her sleeping with Mark, in & of itself, that's innocuous. I mean to me, that's hardly any different than Henry fucking Jada. John was a piece of shit, he was cheating too, Was a shitty husband, father & human being, so I have no sympathy for him when she cheats on him. That in of itself is harmless.

Hell, even with her being angry with Henry about the cause of his falling out with Mark, (given the circumstances & the info they had to work with at the time which I won't go into because spoilers), I can't necessarily fault her for that either. After all, Mark was almost like family too at that point & I do agree, when your kids fuck up, you should hold them accountable. But up to a point. Her abject lack of any sympathy or empathy after Mark started working the charm on her, I feel was too much, & I personally feel is telling of the broader issues with her. Even when your kids fuck up, yes, you discipline them, you hold them accountable, but you also still show them empathy. She didn't really do that.

Then there's the issue of Melinda cheating with Mark behind Henry's back. Once Alice discovered that, I can understand her judgment being clouded enough to decide "Well, given Henry's issues, it's probably the closest thing he'll have to a real relationship & it makes him happy, so I guess it's a good thing? Maybe it can help Henry learn what he needs to maybe have a real relationship in the future" . It's a stretch, but I mean I can let that slide to an extent. It would still take a lot of cognitive dissonance, even when accounting for Mark & Melinda's influence, but Ok, I'll allow that. However, why didn't she ever push Mark to be truthful with Henry about what was really going on with him & Melinda? Or try to persuade Mark to find a girl for Henry that actually would like Henry & want a relationship with just him? These would be common sense questions for a mother to ask in this circumstance. So again, there's a deficit there.

However, if that's all there was to it, I'd say you're right. She was an idiot that let herself be manipulated into accepting & turning a blind eye to some fucked up shit they were doing to Henry, which makes her a scumbag & a shitty mother, but also a victim in her own right & all in all, a lesser evil.

However, she also then went on to start fucking Melinda behind Henry's back too without any hesitation or self reflection at all. Then started having 3somes with Mark & Melinda. Then they started doing it while Henry was at home, sometimes in the same room. This is where she not only stepped over the line, but so far over the line that it's irredeemable. But I want to be clear on just how far over the line this is exactly.

You've talked to my wife, You've heard me talking with her, I quit nicotine for her. You remember how much of a nightmare that was. So you know just how head over heels I am for that woman. You also know though, She's Jamaican. They parent a bit differently then they do here. & I've had to have conversations with her about that. If a kid is out of line with them, they aren't against popping them in the mouth to get them in line, (not punching, but a light slap). That came to a SWIFT end when we first started seriously dating. I made it clear that no matter how much I love her, if she ever tries popping my kids in the mouth, She's losing her hand. NO one harms my kids. NO ONE!. & if she pulled any of that shit with my kids that Alice pulled with Henry, we would be beyond done. Out of my life, out of our kids's lives, gone. No second thought about it. You already know how crazy I am about that woman, so for me to irrevocably & swiftly cut her out like that should illustrate just how much more important my kids are, as they should be.

That is the point that I'm driving at. The natural hierarchy of things. My kids are at the top of that hierarchy, my wife & parents comes second, my other partners & other family come third, I come 4th & friends & everyone else comes after that. That's the way most people are.

So, when the idea of Alice fucking Melinda is even presented, it should have be an automatic "no deal", manipulation or not. She was manipulated, not mindless. She wasn't the manchurian candidate. That should have been the line right there, with her saying "I can accept you & Mark being together, considering the circumstances, but I won't be part of that. I'm not going to get involved with my own child's girlfriend that way, What would happen if he found out & I was part of it? I can't do that to him. He's still my son, I love him & I can't be part of that". If she had stayed on the right side of that line, I'd be in full agreement with you. But that not only didn't happen, she didn't even hesitate to cross that line.

Then furthermore, when they were doing it WHILE HENRY WAS HOME! Sure, I can understand getting turned on by the thrill of being caught or seeing how far they could push it, but What if he caught them? Not only would he feel betrayed by both Mark & Melinda, but also by his own mother. What kind of mental & emotional damage would that cause him? How are these questions not firing off in her brain with giant neon lights? Manipulation can't explain or rationalize these away. Sorry, but it can't. Unless she's completely mindless, it just doesn't happen. Either A, She's not just so empty headed, but also so narcissistic & ego centric that she didn't even think of how it would affect Henry, meaning he's so far down on her list of priorities that her own sexual appetite takes priority over his well being, in which case, fuck her, she's irredeemable garbage, or B, she did think of how it would affect Henry, but didn't care, again because her own sexual gratification was more important to her than Henry's well being, in which case, fuck her, she's irredeemable garbage.

Then it went on from there, with Melinda saying all the degrading shit she did about Henry when they were all fucking. First of all, How does Alice not stop & say "Hold on, Listen, I've accepted a lot of things here, but you're supposed to be his girlfriend aren't you? How can you say those kinds of things about him? Especially when I'm right here?" Or better yet, outright telling Melinda "I will not tolerate you trash taking my son like that. Understood?". I mean hell, Look at Pablo Escobar for example. He was a serial cheater & womanizer, & even when he was in the middle of actively cheating & fucking one of his mistresses, if they said anything demeaning about his wife, he stopped & made it aggressively clear that he will not tolerate any insults against his wife. Granted, he also was a complete scumbag & a shit human in his own right, but at least he had enough respect for his wife to stand up for her, even while he was disrespecting her with his infidelity. & That was his wife. Henry is Alice's SON, which should be many orders of magnitude more important. No questions about it. But nope. She was perfectly fine with her own son being trash talked like that by his girlfriend while she & her son's best friend all fucked behind her son's back. & nothing gin her mind said "What kind of shit mother are you?" REALLY? She didn't even bother to ask Melinda afterwards "Why do you say that kind of stuff about Henry?" Or maybe "Could you stop with that? At least while I'm around?"

Not only that, but the fact that Mark & Melinda were SO into trash talking Henry when they fucked should have clued her in that something wasn't right. How is it she never stopped & thought "Wait, why are they saying this shit? I mean, I know that she's fucking Mark too, but I thought she liked Henry & I thought Mark & him were cool again. So why are they saying this kind of stuff about him?" I mean even if we accept the pretense of Alice knowing that they didn't care about Henry at all & were only doing it for her, why isn't she asking "Hey, they know I still love & care about Henry, Why can't they not trash talk him when I'm around at least out of respect for me?" How is she not asking Mark to end the farce between Henry & Melinda & instead help him to figure out how to get his own girlfriend, if nothing else, then to mitigate the trauma if he caught them? How does their behavior not clue her in that things aren't quite as she's been led to believe? The only way we can rationalize anything past that line I mentioned earlier is if we presume that she's irredeemably stupid. & I'm sorry, but I've worked with non verbal clients that can't even wipe their own ass & have the mental acuity of a 3 year old that were more perceptive than that.

Then beyond that, again, not going into spoilers, but the things she discovered about Melinda afterwards & what not, there's absolutely no way she wouldn't realize that something was up & at least be asking questions, But she never EVER did. She's still super chummy with both Mark AND Melinda over a decade later & didn't even bat an eye when Mark tells her that he's going to wreck Henry's marriage.

& the key take away from all that isn't just what she did, but the fact that she willingly did it & her mental state about it ALL those years later. What we're left with is a woman that is either A, so fucking clueless that if she took an IQ test, the results would be sandwich, making her irredeemably stupid, B, She's almost that stupid, but eventually put the pieces together, but did so so late that she mentally walled it all off to protect herself from having to face the results of her role in her own son's abuse, in which case, fuck her. I mean if it was a friend she did it to, ok, fair enough, she's a shitty person & a shitty friend. But to her own son? Unacceptable. Full stop. Or C, She was fully aware of how shitty she was being in her role in it all, in which fuck her, she's a trash human & each breath that she takes is an atrocity & a waste of valuable oxygen.

Now I already agreed, I won't kill her.. On most routes, (depends on what happens with some other characters I suppose). But Yes, she is just as irredeemable, if not more so than Mark & Melinda. True, Mark & Melinda did more direct harm, they were more malevolent & intentional with their roles, but they were his fake friend & girlfriend. Scumbags are gonna scumbag. But the fact that Alice crossed that line, then continued further & further past that line without even pausing to ask herself why or to even think about what she was doing & allowing to happen, PLUS the fact that the victim of all of this was her own flesh && blood, THAT is what makes her role in it so intolerable.

Again, As I said, I'll let her live in most routes. But you & I both know that she absolutely does not deserve to. Nor does she have any right to call herself a mother or anything less than the disgusting wretch of a failure that she is. Even if she sacrificed everything & spent the rest of her life being the perfect mother for Henry, she MIGHT earn her way back up to scumbag. But the reality is, the damage is done. It's like closing the barn door after the horse already is long gone.

 

[Slappy Kinkaid]

i would be nice if henry turned into a fucking monster. something like sheriff wydell in the devils reject. how far he will go to hurt the people who hurt him

I was always more of a Captain Spaulding guy myself. Apparently, so is my 4 year old. I shit you not, but the other day he got in a fight with one of the neighbor kids & he yelled "Fuck your mom, fuck your sister, Fuck your grandma & most of all fuck you". That said, he also introduced himself to the neighbors by braining their 6 year old with a stone fish lawn statue.... I'm pretty sure I'm raising a psycho. Either that or a real badass.

Anyway, Henry won't on most routes, but trust me, there's worse than Sheriff Wydell coming into the game, & he will be the one doing most of the damage.

I haven't seen any route in the game that doesn't involve BBC, lesbian or the spineless husband. So much for nymphomaniac not with a trite, overdone trope.

There's 2 distinct routes where she fucks other guys. in one, she fucks Henry's poker buddies, in the other she starts cheating with random strangers. So clearly you haven't played through all of the game. That's a you issue man.

 

[Zara Scarlet]

There will be a few different ones, though the catalyst for a lot of them will come through Stumpy & his crew.

I appreciate where you're coming from. If it's any consolation, The slutty friends route has a bit more that I can fluff out to provide that same kind of effect. Though I think it is important to keep something in mind. Many of the fans made the error of thinking that this was your typical western female protag NTR piece, where the hot wife is corrupted over the course of the story, in most of the endings, we have a fully corrupted, morally bankrupt slut in different scenarios, but otherwise happy & content with her lot in life, as are the antagonist characters, with the husband being the main loser. Kinda like Good girl gone bad or something like that. That's not what this is.

This isn't a happy, fun ride into the depths of moral depravity. I know Saruh ended up leaning into that some to appease the fans because, Well.. he needed their money. I think that's one of the reasons why he picked me to finish it because he knew that I don't care about your money. The Patreon could dry completely up & I wouldn't care. I mean as it is, it's dropped from what, $600 some odd a month down to less than $200 & I haven't batted an eye. That's because, while the support is appreciated, I don't rely on it. I mean when the story is done, I hope the fans like it, if not, hey it is what it is.

The point is, from it's inception, this game was intended to be more like a heroin addict's journey through addiction. That is what he meant when he said he was going to take NTR to the next level. He didn't mean he was going to dial up the same tropes to 11, he meant that he was going to take the characters up through the euphoric heavenly highs, then drop them screaming into the subsequent hell that ensues. Just ask any junkie, they will tell you that's exactly what it's like. They might start out dabbling with dope seeking pleasure & fun, but after that addiction takes hold, it's not fun anymore. At that point, they don't want to get high anymore, but they have to to silence the constant jet roar in their mind screaming to get some dope. They have to so they won't get violently sick from withdrawal. They have to to escape in any way they can the hell that has become their life due to their addiction. My buddy Rob was a huge addict. He was a full blown alcoholic by 11, & popped his first Vicodin in his 20s. HE didn't finally get clean until about 2007, stayed clean for about 10 years, then relapsed hard, developed a 4+ gram per day Fentanyl habit for a few months, then got clean again. Despite being a successful musician in like 3 different bands, good relationships, etc... his addiction & co-related mental issues brought him to the brink of offing himself on more than a few occasions.

Now I know that was a bit of a walk into what seems like an unrelated topic, but the point is, much like my buddy Rob's journey through heroin addiction, so is the same with Angelica's life & her nymphomania. I mean that's one the main reasons why she wasn't the typical pure, naive, innocent housewife we see in most NTR pieces, but instead a hypersexual nymphomaniac with an already checkered history with her own addiction leading to harrowing outcomes. She, like Rob is an addict. That's the parallel. Therefore, the journey she has with that addiction takes the same trajectory to similar outcomes depending on the choices she makes. This is why she was trying to escape her disorder in the first place. Because she knows that no matter how much fun & pleasurable it is in the beginning, it will eventually destroy her & become her nightmare.

To quote Rob, from one of Ramallah's songs, titled "Just 1 shot", (good tune, you should check it out):
You can fly to it
& climb so high to it
& in a Dunkin Donuts bathroom you can die to it
& you can burn to it
yeah you can burn to it
burn
burn
& then there will be no more.

As is the same with Angelica's nymphomania. It's not a tale of morally depraved fun, where she lives happily ever after in her wickedness, nor a tale of her becoming a mindless but blissfully happy cumdump. It's a tale of self immolation.

Now in most of the endings, there will be fan appeasement endings where she lives happily ever after with Mark, or Aria on those respective paths, but those are just that. Fan service. The tale that Saruh wanted to tell is the one that aligns with what I just laid out. So I mean, on some routes, you will see that descent, but I'm telling you now man, it's not going to be quite the descent you might have been expecting & after a certain point, not quite sure what the fap value would be either.

There will be a few different ones, though the catalyst for a lot of them will come through Stumpy & his crew.

I appreciate where you're coming from. If it's any consolation, The slutty friends route has a bit more that I can fluff out to provide that same kind of effect. Though I think it is important to keep something in mind. Many of the fans made the error of thinking that this was your typical western female protag NTR piece, where the hot wife is corrupted over the course of the story, in most of the endings, we have a fully corrupted, morally bankrupt slut in different scenarios, but otherwise happy & content with her lot in life, as are the antagonist characters, with the husband being the main loser. Kinda like Good girl gone bad or something like that. That's not what this is.

This isn't a happy, fun ride into the depths of moral depravity. I know Saruh ended up leaning into that some to appease the fans because, Well.. he needed their money. I think that's one of the reasons why he picked me to finish it because he knew that I don't care about your money. The Patreon could dry completely up & I wouldn't care. I mean as it is, it's dropped from what, $600 some odd a month down to less than $200 & I haven't batted an eye. That's because, while the support is appreciated, I don't rely on it. I mean when the story is done, I hope the fans like it, if not, hey it is what it is.

The point is, from it's inception, this game was intended to be more like a heroin addict's journey through addiction. That is what he meant when he said he was going to take NTR to the next level. He didn't mean he was going to dial up the same tropes to 11, he meant that he was going to take the characters up through the euphoric heavenly highs, then drop them screaming into the subsequent hell that ensues. Just ask any junkie, they will tell you that's exactly what it's like. They might start out dabbling with dope seeking pleasure & fun, but after that addiction takes hold, it's not fun anymore. At that point, they don't want to get high anymore, but they have to to silence the constant jet roar in their mind screaming to get some dope. They have to so they won't get violently sick from withdrawal. They have to to escape in any way they can the hell that has become their life due to their addiction. My buddy Rob was a huge addict. He was a full blown alcoholic by 11, & popped his first Vicodin in his 20s. HE didn't finally get clean until about 2007, stayed clean for about 10 years, then relapsed hard, developed a 4+ gram per day Fentanyl habit for a few months, then got clean again. Despite being a successful musician in like 3 different bands, good relationships, etc... his addiction & co-related mental issues brought him to the brink of offing himself on more than a few occasions.

Now I know that was a bit of a walk into what seems like an unrelated topic, but the point is, much like my buddy Rob's journey through heroin addiction, so is the same with Angelica's life & her nymphomania. I mean that's one the main reasons why she wasn't the typical pure, naive, innocent housewife we see in most NTR pieces, but instead a hypersexual nymphomaniac with an already checkered history with her own addiction leading to harrowing outcomes. She, like Rob is an addict. That's the parallel. Therefore, the journey she has with that addiction takes the same trajectory to similar outcomes depending on the choices she makes. This is why she was trying to escape her disorder in the first place. Because she knows that no matter how much fun & pleasurable it is in the beginning, it will eventually destroy her & become her nightmare.

To quote Rob, from one of Ramallah's songs, titled "Just 1 shot", (good tune, you should check it out):
You can fly to it
& climb so high to it
& in a Dunkin Donuts bathroom you can die to it
& you can burn to it
yeah you can burn to it
burn
burn
& then there will be no more.

As is the same with Angelica's nymphomania. It's not a tale of morally depraved fun, where she lives happily ever after in her wickedness, nor a tale of her becoming a mindless but blissfully happy cumdump. It's a tale of self immolation.

Now in most of the endings, there will be fan appeasement endings where she lives happily ever after with Mark, or Aria on those respective paths, but those are just that. Fan service. The tale that Saruh wanted to tell is the one that aligns with what I just laid out. So I mean, on some routes, you will see that descent, but I'm telling you now man, it's not going to be quite the descent you might have been expecting & after a certain point, not quite sure what the fap value would be either.

Well in some of the bad endings, it's already been shown the kind of future that awaits Angelica, if she allows her nymphomania to get the better of her. And I wasn't really expecting a happy ending, after some of the comments that Saruh made in the past. And to be absolutely honest I don't really need one, cos I kind of get that being a total slut rarely leads to a life of bliss. I have personal experience of where extreme promiscuity can lead people in real life. But that doesn't mean they can't have a lot of fun on the way there. Plus people in that situation often delude themselves into believing, that what they're doing is a lot of fun, even when it's not. Because people with low self esteem can often get a perverse satisfaction, from performing acts that would be extremely degrading to anyone else.

So your comments suggest, that her descent will actually turn out to be exactly what I hoped it would be. But that wouldn't happen after one weekend of being a slut. It would probably take years, during which she would have sex with a lot of people. And probably either love a lot it, or make herself believe that she was loving it

Like you say, on the slutwife route Angelica already knows what the ending is going to be. But she does it anyway. Because she's given up on the possibility of love, and just wants to revel in pleasure until it consumes her. Women who are enormous sluts are not normal. Many of them have issues, but they just don't care anymore. Because why would you risk having unprotected sex with a load of men you don't know, if you actually cared about your long term health? The chances of catching HIV in RL, are very very high with that lifestyle, but yet so many women ( and men for that matter) still do it. All they care about is the thrill of being incredibly promiscous, and thinking about the possible negative consequences, just isn't part of the equation.

 

[Kassan06969]

Considering the 4 main characters in the game are the Nympho MC, the black guy, the female bestie that wants her and the loser husband you expect to not have them involved in every path?

How about find someone else? Can't make a white guy for her? All lesbian is boring and BBCis very overdone and also boring due to being so overdone.

 

[Kassan06969]

I was always more of a Captain Spaulding guy myself. Apparently, so is my 4 year old. I shit you not, but the other day he got in a fight with one of the neighbor kids & he yelled "Fuck your mom, fuck your sister, Fuck your grandma & most of all fuck you". That said, he also introduced himself to the neighbors by braining their 6 year old with a stone fish lawn statue.... I'm pretty sure I'm raising a psycho. Either that or a real badass.

Anyway, Henry won't on most routes, but trust me, there's worse than Sheriff Wydell coming into the game, & he will be the one doing most of the damage.
There's 2 distinct routes where she fucks other guys. in one, she fucks Henry's poker buddies, in the other she starts cheating with random strangers. So clearly you haven't played through all of the game. That's a you issue man.

Didn't see ability. Didn't do the Henry route because I don't like that BBC shit.

 

[Zara Scarlet]

There's 2 distinct routes where she fucks other guys. in one, she fucks Henry's poker buddies, in the other she starts cheating with random strangers.

Don't both those events take place on the slutwife route? On the Saturday night of that route, Julia joins her for the second poker night, and they fuck all Henry's buddies, whilst forcing him to watch. On Friday or Sunday, you get the option to either meet up and have a threesome with the guys who delivered Mark's Gym equipment, or go to a bar and end up having sex with multiple guys in the Bar's glory hole.

 

[Slappy Kinkaid]

Didn't see ability. Didn't do the Henry route because I don't like that BBC shit.

Dude, so you admit that you didn't even bother playing large chunks of the game, then you're complaining about the game lacking content that is there, you just didn't bother playing the parts that contain it? I mean, do you see why I said it's a you issue? The content you're complaining about is there, you just have to play the parts with it.

 

[Slappy Kinkaid]

Don't both those events take place on the slutwife route? On the Saturday night of that route, Julia joins her for the second poker night, and they fuck all Henry's buddies, whilst forcing him to watch. On Friday or Sunday, you get the option to either meet up and have a threesome with the guys who delivered Mark's Gym equipment, or go to a bar and end up having sex with multiple guys in the Bar's glory hole.

yeah that's one of them.

 

[SevenCostanza]

Hey Slappy Kinkaid will you add/continue the scene replay gallery option in the game?
I hope so and also make it so it's easily unlockable

 

[rhcp725]

It is easily unlockable, play the content scene unlocks.

 

[SevenCostanza]

Yea but with like 10 routes and sub branching paths it gets hard to keep track of everything.
I think previously the patreon versions included unlocked scene gallery for each route under the Extra's section.
At least the last version I have does but I can't remember if I downloaded a gallery mod of some kind.

 

[italianstallionxxx]

Again, As I said, I'll let her live in most routes.

maybe not straight up killing her but that woman doesnt deserve any happiness. or hernrys father

 

[damocles15]

What I love about this, is has android version.

 

[italianstallionxxx]

im giving this game a chance and holy fuck there isnt a single person who isnt a piece of shit.
henry is legit with ptsd

 

[italianstallionxxx]

can you get the cuckquean route without cheating?

 

[SevenCostanza]

Well I agree that it's not as black & white, but there's a lot of different angles to the context here. I mean I do agree, that she was influenced significantly by Mark & Melinda as well as a number of circumstances. But she still has agency & she isn't a mentally addled simpleton. I can accept her judgment being clouded up to a certain point, but the only way we can justify going easy on her would be if we assume that she's THAT incompetent that she can just be manipulated that far, in which case we then also have to ask how she hasn't yet drowned in her own saliva.

I mean let's break it down into segments. Now her sleeping with Mark, in & of itself, that's innocuous. I mean to me, that's hardly any different than Henry fucking Jada. John was a piece of shit, he was cheating too, Was a shitty husband, father & human being, so I have no sympathy for him when she cheats on him. That in of itself is harmless.

Hell, even with her being angry with Henry about the cause of his falling out with Mark, (given the circumstances & the info they had to work with at the time which I won't go into because spoilers), I can't necessarily fault her for that either. After all, Mark was almost like family too at that point & I do agree, when your kids fuck up, you should hold them accountable. But up to a point. Her abject lack of any sympathy or empathy after Mark started working the charm on her, I feel was too much, & I personally feel is telling of the broader issues with her. Even when your kids fuck up, yes, you discipline them, you hold them accountable, but you also still show them empathy. She didn't really do that.

Then there's the issue of Melinda cheating with Mark behind Henry's back. Once Alice discovered that, I can understand her judgment being clouded enough to decide "Well, given Henry's issues, it's probably the closest thing he'll have to a real relationship & it makes him happy, so I guess it's a good thing? Maybe it can help Henry learn what he needs to maybe have a real relationship in the future" . It's a stretch, but I mean I can let that slide to an extent. It would still take a lot of cognitive dissonance, even when accounting for Mark & Melinda's influence, but Ok, I'll allow that. However, why didn't she ever push Mark to be truthful with Henry about what was really going on with him & Melinda? Or try to persuade Mark to find a girl for Henry that actually would like Henry & want a relationship with just him? These would be common sense questions for a mother to ask in this circumstance. So again, there's a deficit there.

However, if that's all there was to it, I'd say you're right. She was an idiot that let herself be manipulated into accepting & turning a blind eye to some fucked up shit they were doing to Henry, which makes her a scumbag & a shitty mother, but also a victim in her own right & all in all, a lesser evil.

However, she also then went on to start fucking Melinda behind Henry's back too without any hesitation or self reflection at all. Then started having 3somes with Mark & Melinda. Then they started doing it while Henry was at home, sometimes in the same room. This is where she not only stepped over the line, but so far over the line that it's irredeemable. But I want to be clear on just how far over the line this is exactly.

You've talked to my wife, You've heard me talking with her, I quit nicotine for her. You remember how much of a nightmare that was. So you know just how head over heels I am for that woman. You also know though, She's Jamaican. They parent a bit differently then they do here. & I've had to have conversations with her about that. If a kid is out of line with them, they aren't against popping them in the mouth to get them in line, (not punching, but a light slap). That came to a SWIFT end when we first started seriously dating. I made it clear that no matter how much I love her, if she ever tries popping my kids in the mouth, She's losing her hand. NO one harms my kids. NO ONE!. & if she pulled any of that shit with my kids that Alice pulled with Henry, we would be beyond done. Out of my life, out of our kids's lives, gone. No second thought about it. You already know how crazy I am about that woman, so for me to irrevocably & swiftly cut her out like that should illustrate just how much more important my kids are, as they should be.

That is the point that I'm driving at. The natural hierarchy of things. My kids are at the top of that hierarchy, my wife & parents comes second, my other partners & other family come third, I come 4th & friends & everyone else comes after that. That's the way most people are.

So, when the idea of Alice fucking Melinda is even presented, it should have be an automatic "no deal", manipulation or not. She was manipulated, not mindless. She wasn't the manchurian candidate. That should have been the line right there, with her saying "I can accept you & Mark being together, considering the circumstances, but I won't be part of that. I'm not going to get involved with my own child's girlfriend that way, What would happen if he found out & I was part of it? I can't do that to him. He's still my son, I love him & I can't be part of that". If she had stayed on the right side of that line, I'd be in full agreement with you. But that not only didn't happen, she didn't even hesitate to cross that line.

Then furthermore, when they were doing it WHILE HENRY WAS HOME! Sure, I can understand getting turned on by the thrill of being caught or seeing how far they could push it, but What if he caught them? Not only would he feel betrayed by both Mark & Melinda, but also by his own mother. What kind of mental & emotional damage would that cause him? How are these questions not firing off in her brain with giant neon lights? Manipulation can't explain or rationalize these away. Sorry, but it can't. Unless she's completely mindless, it just doesn't happen. Either A, She's not just so empty headed, but also so narcissistic & ego centric that she didn't even think of how it would affect Henry, meaning he's so far down on her list of priorities that her own sexual appetite takes priority over his well being, in which case, fuck her, she's irredeemable garbage, or B, she did think of how it would affect Henry, but didn't care, again because her own sexual gratification was more important to her than Henry's well being, in which case, fuck her, she's irredeemable garbage.

Then it went on from there, with Melinda saying all the degrading shit she did about Henry when they were all fucking. First of all, How does Alice not stop & say "Hold on, Listen, I've accepted a lot of things here, but you're supposed to be his girlfriend aren't you? How can you say those kinds of things about him? Especially when I'm right here?" Or better yet, outright telling Melinda "I will not tolerate you trash taking my son like that. Understood?". I mean hell, Look at Pablo Escobar for example. He was a serial cheater & womanizer, & even when he was in the middle of actively cheating & fucking one of his mistresses, if they said anything demeaning about his wife, he stopped & made it aggressively clear that he will not tolerate any insults against his wife. Granted, he also was a complete scumbag & a shit human in his own right, but at least he had enough respect for his wife to stand up for her, even while he was disrespecting her with his infidelity. & That was his wife. Henry is Alice's SON, which should be many orders of magnitude more important. No questions about it. But nope. She was perfectly fine with her own son being trash talked like that by his girlfriend while she & her son's best friend all fucked behind her son's back. & nothing gin her mind said "What kind of shit mother are you?" REALLY? She didn't even bother to ask Melinda afterwards "Why do you say that kind of stuff about Henry?" Or maybe "Could you stop with that? At least while I'm around?"

Not only that, but the fact that Mark & Melinda were SO into trash talking Henry when they fucked should have clued her in that something wasn't right. How is it she never stopped & thought "Wait, why are they saying this shit? I mean, I know that she's fucking Mark too, but I thought she liked Henry & I thought Mark & him were cool again. So why are they saying this kind of stuff about him?" I mean even if we accept the pretense of Alice knowing that they didn't care about Henry at all & were only doing it for her, why isn't she asking "Hey, they know I still love & care about Henry, Why can't they not trash talk him when I'm around at least out of respect for me?" How is she not asking Mark to end the farce between Henry & Melinda & instead help him to figure out how to get his own girlfriend, if nothing else, then to mitigate the trauma if he caught them? How does their behavior not clue her in that things aren't quite as she's been led to believe? The only way we can rationalize anything past that line I mentioned earlier is if we presume that she's irredeemably stupid. & I'm sorry, but I've worked with non verbal clients that can't even wipe their own ass & have the mental acuity of a 3 year old that were more perceptive than that.

Then beyond that, again, not going into spoilers, but the things she discovered about Melinda afterwards & what not, there's absolutely no way she wouldn't realize that something was up & at least be asking questions, But she never EVER did. She's still super chummy with both Mark AND Melinda over a decade later & didn't even bat an eye when Mark tells her that he's going to wreck Henry's marriage.

& the key take away from all that isn't just what she did, but the fact that she willingly did it & her mental state about it ALL those years later. What we're left with is a woman that is either A, so fucking clueless that if she took an IQ test, the results would be sandwich, making her irredeemably stupid, B, She's almost that stupid, but eventually put the pieces together, but did so so late that she mentally walled it all off to protect herself from having to face the results of her role in her own son's abuse, in which case, fuck her. I mean if it was a friend she did it to, ok, fair enough, she's a shitty person & a shitty friend. But to her own son? Unacceptable. Full stop. Or C, She was fully aware of how shitty she was being in her role in it all, in which fuck her, she's a trash human & each breath that she takes is an atrocity & a waste of valuable oxygen.

Now I already agreed, I won't kill her.. On most routes, (depends on what happens with some other characters I suppose). But Yes, she is just as irredeemable, if not more so than Mark & Melinda. True, Mark & Melinda did more direct harm, they were more malevolent & intentional with their roles, but they were his fake friend & girlfriend. Scumbags are gonna scumbag. But the fact that Alice crossed that line, then continued further & further past that line without even pausing to ask herself why or to even think about what she was doing & allowing to happen, PLUS the fact that the victim of all of this was her own flesh && blood, THAT is what makes her role in it so intolerable.

Again, As I said, I'll let her live in most routes. But you & I both know that she absolutely does not deserve to. Nor does she have any right to call herself a mother or anything less than the disgusting wretch of a failure that she is. Even if she sacrificed everything & spent the rest of her life being the perfect mother for Henry, she MIGHT earn her way back up to scumbag. But the reality is, the damage is done. It's like closing the barn door after the horse already is long gone.

Well put. This is basically where I stand on her as well. Sure she may not have done as much to actively screw over Henry then Mark and Melinda but the fact that she's his mother makes every betrayal that much worse. The one person in his life who should have prioritized protecting him did the opposite at basically every step of the way. Probably the last person anyone would ever expect to completely screw them over or allow them to be screwed over. Neither her circumstances nor what others did to influence her are valid excuses imo.
If she doesn't get killed off when karma comes knocking, she should at least end herself once the cognitive dissonance starts to fade and she realizes what a monster she was.