that looks like a nightmare
for me easiest t4 is pleasure, and morality (they just happen naturally even if they fuck one of your tries sometimes) drain is a drag , and I cant trigger t4 dignity consistently for some reason
Java Corrupted Saviors [Release 58] [CSDev]
for me easiest t4 is pleasure, and morality (they just happen naturally even if they fuck one of your tries sometimes) drain is a drag , and I cant trigger t4 dignity consistently for some reason
Glad I could help! I've just been playing around it because I thought it was the intended behavior.
I don't think it's a lot, actually. At Loop 15, I've fought close to the minimum number of Chosen (I went into Loop 9 to pick up a few more despite being able to skip it, knowing I would soon need... extras).
3 in Loop 1 (standard)
3 in Loop 3 (2 standard 1 Superior)
3 in Loop 5 (1 Undead 2 Standard)
3 in Loop 7 (I think this was Undead--Superior--Standard)
3 in Loop 9 (Animalistic--Undead--Superior, I think)
3 in Loop 10 (Splendor boss fight so 2 Undead)
3 in Loop 11 (Devil, Undead, Standard I think)
3 in Loop 14 (Devil, Animalistic, Superior I believe)
So that means I got a total of 24 from minimal loops, which means I've sacrificed 9. Most of those were after Splendor joined the team. I usually keep a minimum of two "worthless" Forsaken around to dance for the amusement of their sisterhood (Grand Concert) but Splendor has eaten all of them.
The 15 I have are all for specific purposes. I have 3 for basic Circumstance damage (since Tempted can switch all 4 are covered). I have 8 for applying the most useful Punisher effects to others. (All 4 Circumstance bonuses, Trauma bonus, Motivation bonus, +Stamina bonus, -EE cost bonus, +Stamina regen bonus, +Training Consent bonus, some applying multiples of these). The other 2 are Devil Forsaken, which I have kept because I haven't used them before and want to test their effectiveness, but loops quickly get so short that I don't often get the chance.
I remember the first contest we had someone commented a bit incredulously at how many Forsaken I sacrificed. I think most players don't like giving them up like that. Each one represents at least some level of effort. Personally I accept which ones are going to be useful and which aren't right after I get Psychic Reading and all 3 Chosen join the battle. I give the ones I keep flavorful names and I give the ones I'm not keeping shit names.
I have not--the only time I was really motivated to examine the code was for Downtimes because everyone kept asking how they worked, and for items to get a convenient list of all of them for the wiki. Knowing the code for Downtimes is how I was able to point out the error noted above.
The changes you mentioned would go a long way towards making it more fun for me personally. I agree on the boss fight and might add something extra: if the next loop is a boss fight, the only offers she'll give will all strengthen that loop. It would be an excellent opportunity for some flavour text as well and give players a chance to fight double-buffed bosses (if they take one offer during the combat portion and one offer during the training portion of the loop). It would also be sensible as she really wants to help Victory (and, eventually, the other Boss Chosen).
Consider also mainly for ease of conveyance making all offers expire after the Final Battle (with effects on the next Loop remaining), with the possible exception of Next Loop Difficulty.
I honestly have no point of comparison since she only ever offers the Species Damage bargain. The last time I posted "hey I can't beat this Devil plase halp" resulted in the whole Bargain system because she was always doing both. Testing what it'd be like without Motivation drain and with the Species Damage penalty off would require a totally new run that I don't have the energy or time to do.
For now, I'm just going to cheat my way past Loop 15 as I want to try some Angel Chosen and I don't feel like giving up my game progress to do so. I'll look forward to after the changes mentioned above giving Victory an honest shot with a refreshed team next release.
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Yeah I had a lot of trouble with that fight, even after the changes to Splendor. Have you beaten at least one Animalistic Chosen for the achievement, or gotten the Silver Collar? You might be able to get by without either of these but one or both will be very helpful.
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I havent warped (if that is the abandoned lab and so, when the game tells you that there is an alternative way for a city wi no chosen? I have taken none of those)
tip 1: done ( I usually take the bargain if she asks for the loop to be 1 loop harder)
tip 2: my last strategy
tip 3: Havent done that yet
tip 4: I tried to do that with a Forsaken at 30 or so EE , the numbers werent high enough
I dont have silver collar nor that many forsaken but I have 1 animalistic demon knight( I just sacrificed a bunch after getting splendor because they were almost useless to me and tantrum all the time)
one of the problems is that I can only deploy hate/expo and the devil has core hate/core inju -_-
I dont have a reliable strategy for orgy what is yours? (mostly I useforsaken with high damage hate/plea/inju but withsplendor I only have hate/expo deployable)
edit: thanks for answering
So there are a bunch of guides for days 1-15 but there aren't as many for the later stages. I keep getting stuck or having my progress grind to halt which leads to me potentially not having fully corrupted anything by the end battle. Are there any tips or guides for the later mid to endgame? I'm aware that because of the various personalities and vulnerabilities its difficult to give a play-by-play, but I've experimented with a bunch of stuff and feel like I'm hitting my head against the wall. Even when I get everyone's t3 done by like day 30 and I have the newspaper item to give me a boost, I just make bad decisions around my next actions.
I think I only had one Animalistic as well before this fight, which brings your minimum damage up to 15 so that you can make some progress at the beginning of fights.
I gather the following upgrades before Orgy: Networked Consciousness, Passion Release
My strategy for the first Orgy depends on what T2 breaks I want the Chosen to have. The most reliable one starts off with a Tempted Forsaken (I use an Undead) who does enough EXPO damage to be 1000% EXPO, but still has some expertise in PLEA. I send her out. Her cost is 4EE. She can pretty reliably do 999 EXPO damage turn 1, so I have her capture for 2 rounds to bring EXPO to level 2. Then I use her Tempt command to switch to PLEA damage, which she isn't as good at but gets a modifier to make up for. She can bring most any chosen to Level 2 PLEA in 2 turns as well, so I have her build that up until the turn before the second Chosen arrives, then Release.
Then I capture the second Chosen so she can build up EXPO damage on her. Next I surround the first Chosen with Pummel using Networked Consciousness. This may start out low damage but will grow because the second Chosen is definitely getting 999 EXPO first turn, and probably up to level 3 EXPO by the third turn of Capture. Still on the first Chosen, I issue the Grind command, which has two things building its multipliers. Somewhere in here is usually where the third Chosen comes in, I ignore her and issue another command to the first Chosen of whichever Circumstance I'm planning to Orgy (this method can use PLEA or EXPO, but EXPO is easier). By this time the second Chosen should be at 10K EXPO, so I spend a turn switching the Forsaken over to Tempt for her. Third Chosen will not remain unmolested for long--I issue the last Surround command to the first Chosen.
When the second Chosen has >10K PLEA, I use Release on her if she's got more than 1 turn remaining so she can capture the third Chosen next turn. This should be around Turn 9-10 depending on when the second Chosen enters. I then Surround the second Chosen and start raising her INJU, then HATE, then whichever I'm wanting to use for the Orgy. The third Chosen starts building off the base of the second Chosen's EXPO, so hers goes up quite fast. At this point it's easy to get her to Level 3 EXPO or, if I switch the action of the Forsaken to Tempt, I can get Level 3 PLEA instead. At some point I do have to go back and surround the first and second Chosen again.
I have different methods and Forsaken for INJU and HATE as well. They aren't quite as reliable but if I mess around with them a bit I can usually get something that works.
You're right, there's not much for later. Here's some suggestions for midgame that will get you some T3 Vulnerability Breaks in the low 20s or earlier. I'm going to assume you can reliably generate T2 breaks and not try to hand-hold too much. I'm also not going to talk about Distortions and assume you can do all breaks to all Chosen.
Grab all the 2-cost upgrades.
You need some 5EE upgrades: Intelligence, Nursery Hives, the one that increases Evacuation requirements.
Your eventual goals are Networked Consciousness, Passion Release, Determination, and possibly Genius so that you can get a long Orgy off, which will open up all available T3 breaks.
Since this section of the game is really limited by energy, another goal is to get all the Chosen doing 5EE Downtimes so that you gain 15EE per day. The best way to accomplish this is either with Defiler+ Actions or long Inseminate actions. Inseminate is the best at building up Trauma as it hits both the Circumstances that raise Trauma damage.
You'll be using standard Commanders for most of this with no Suppressors or Defilers. Use two captures and as many turns as you can (up to 6 turns if you have Tomorrow's Newspaper or Genius unlocked).
Your combats will be focused on building up long Insemination or Inseminate+ Actions. This can be accomplished by the following:
First turn--start Pummel.
Second turn--start Grind
Third turn--start Caress
Fourth turn--start Humiliate.
When the second Chosen arrives, Capture them and:
Start Pummel
Start Humiliate
Start Caress or Grind (depending on which hits harder)
At some point during this the third Chosen will probably come in and the first Chosen will leave their capture--ignore this for now.
It should now be turn 8. Go back to the first Chosen and Surround them. You're looking to first target any Circumstances below 1000 (level 2). This is necessary to avoid an unbalanced Circumstance penalty. When the second Chosen is free, Surround her again immediately and target whatever Circumstance you didn't target the first time, and any others below 1000. If you've got all upgrades above, you should be able to still get a third Surround against her as long as Extermination isn't finished.
Pile on your Surround actions aiming to build HATE (or the Circumstance you're targeting for a Defiler+) over 10K on one or both. If you notice that they will come free on the same turn or you find yourself with a free turn, spend a turn hitting the third Chosen with a basic attack so that you can Surround her the final turn and prevent the end of Combat. If one of the Chosen gets above 10k Circ during this second Surround, go ahead and take the action offered if you've got more than 2 turns of Surround remaining as it will help you build up Trauma for a longer final Surround.
Watch the two Chosen that you've Surrounded and see--they should be coming free somewhere around the same turn. If you've managed to get them up to where you can hit them both with a long Defiler+, do that. Otherwise the first Chosen should be ready for a long time Inseminate, or nearly so.
Sometimes you can use standard attacks on the second Chosen while the first is finishing up the second Surround (or vice versa) to build them up to a similar number of Surround turns. Just don't let any of them that are free Regenerate to below 10K Circumstance damage or you'll undo your hard work.
These kinds of Surrounds will generally be what you need to bring you into +5EE Downtimes from each Chosen. Sometimes it can also bring you to T3 breaks, which provide bonus Evil Energy that can really help with these expensive purchases. Either way, these total purchases and prerequisites run around 80EE so you may need to save up for a few days once they're all at 15EE.
Then, once you have all upgrades above, you'll need to send out a 6-turn 3-capture standard Commander and get the Orgy, which requires basically the same tactics but also Capturing the third Chosen when she enters. If you don't have Genius or Tomorrow's Newspaper, adjust the below for 5 turns. This situation varies too much to give a turn-by-turn like above, but some general tips:
Try to start with a Chosen who doesn't have any of her teammates joining Turn 7 (earlier or later is fine), as that's when your Demon will release her.
Here's one possible map through the first 8 turns assuming the second Chosen comes in Turn 5 and doesn't have Core DIG, and the third shows up Turn 6. For Under 1K, pick a Circumstance under 1k. If none are under 1k, pick whatever Circumstance you're targeting for the Orgy.
Code:
1st--Pummel--Grind--Caress--Humiliate-------------------Under 1K--------------------
2nd------------------------------------Humiliate-----------------Pummel-------------
3rd-----------------------------------------------Pummel----------------Grind-CaressYour second Surrounds are focused on getting all Circumstances (possible exception, EXPO on third Chosen may be unnecessary) above 1000 and whatever your targeted Circumstance is above 10K. Surround each one as soon as they're free, unless that would create a situation where all 3 are free at once. Take whatever Defiler actions raise the correct Circumstances.
Your goal is to start the Orgy around the third Surrounds after Extermination finishes. It might last for 6 or more turns if you're careful--this should bring some circumstances to 100M and unlock the first Tier 3 Vulnerability Breaks if they were all still locked.
The above is what I use for Loop 1 and 3. After that point I have at least one good Forsaken that's better at opening up at least one Circumstance than a standard Demon Commander.
Game's hard, man. I don't know how beatable a Devil is without solidly built Forsaken to be honest. Try playing some of the Clash scenarios if you want to get good at winning without your Forsaken. Please note that you basically have to use Forsaken at some point because the Devil's T3 moves are all based around you using them.
I think Devils are a noticeable step in difficulty. I don't know how many players get to that point (I think it's a small percentage but don't have much data for that). Splendor also makes this section of the game very hard if you beat her first. When I commented on the difficulty of this section in the latest patch, CSdev basically said that I picked all the options that made the game as difficult as possible: Splendor first, and as my Second-in-Command, with a trimmed roster due to Warping past a lot of earlier levels . So I don't know what to say other than that there are other choices that make the game a bit easier. You can fight Victory first in Loop 10, and then when you get Splendor you can turn her motivation drain off since you've already beaten another Boss. Or you can plan for how difficult things are with Splendor on your roster and have tons of extra Forsaken around to throw into the Pit or put on Grand Concerts. And, the difficulty may need to be adjusted at some point, I don't know. Currently CSdev is most interested in completing the game by adding planned features--maybe after that they will add an easier mode. Or you can always play with cheats enabled.
I posted a guide of sorts to making powerful Forsaken--the kinds of questions to ask, when to ask them, and specific answers based around one possible set of choices here. Kalloi posted a more general guide here. But the basic idea of building them well is pretty simple--you want to stack on bonuses that are helpful for what that Forsaken can do. An ideal lategame Forsaken looks something like this in the later loops:
Code:
Final EXPOdia (formerly known as Returned Saint Memory)
Real name: Fujimori Rin
Stamina: 23.6%
Motivation: 100.0%
Expertise
HATE: 17.8k (x0.947 dmg)
PLEA: 27.8k (x1.049 dmg) (x1.335 dmg from Queen Pleiades Indigo's hypnosis)
INJU: 28.4k (x1.052 dmg)
EXPO: 70.5k (x1.185 dmg)
x8.500 trauma dmg from Ritual's parasitism
Combat Style: Flashy (1000% EXPO)
Focuses on putting on a show for any onlookers, usually by attacking the target's clothes or by sabotaging a stripped target's attempts at modesty. Can be used to demoralize an entire team.
Training Plan: Flashy (1000% EXPO)
Increases EXPO expertise only
Defiler Specialty: Tempt (PLEA)
Can switch mid-battle to a high-PLEA combat style with an extra damage multiplier at low Disgrace, can cause and intensify Morality/Confidence Distortion against valid targets
Trait: Undead Forsaken
One-third motivation gain, 1/4 Evil Energy cost, Distortion trait changed
Trait: Eager Partner (Vitality Addict)
Regardless of Obedience, 1/4 Motivation cost to deploy and +50% PLEA and EXPO damage
Restore 1% Stamina per Trauma level inflicted on targets, can spend 100% Stamina to Capture flying target
Trait: Personal Paradise
Fully restore Motivation every day and deal +10% damage (from wings of EXPOdia)
First Hypnosis: Queen Pleiades Indigo (+33.5% PLEA damage)
First Parasitism: Ritual (+750% trauma damage)
Investigative Hypnotist (+3.9% own PLEA damage per Hypnosis)
Hostility: 11% (Optimistic about humanity)
Deviancy: 73% (Fetishizes aberrant actions)
Obedience: 42% (Obeys out of fear)
Disgrace: 61% (Viewed with contempt)
What would you like to speak to Final EXPOdia about?She was Tempted, which gives her a bonus to PLEA (and EXPO) damage. You can't view this in the above shot, but she's also got a Punisher that buffs her own PLEA. Since I just got her in the last Loop she hasn't used it yet but she'll be able to continually build her PLEA damage as she Breaks more Forsaken as my Hypnotist. And she had her Total INN break from a Forsaken that gave her a bonus to PLEA damage also.
She was also converted with what I generally find to be the most useful Punisher for Total DIG Break, and got a +750% Trauma damage modifier so she can start building up large Surrounds right away.
She's Undead. Her cost is 4EE, so I can send her out Day 1 with my set of items. I would have liked for this to be higher to build her self-buffs more, but Tempted Forsaken start out with high Disgrace so this is unavoidable.
And, the part that makes this an experiment--she was converted along with my first Angel Chosen, who I broke through Temptation to make her restore this Forsaken's Motivation every day.
Now, you can't get all these bonuses right away. You have to build up to them by building your roster of Forsaken. But I get them by taking at every chance the opportunity to build the single most powerful single Forsaken every Loop. You take that one and stack all the bonuses you can on it.
As soon as I get Psychic Reading, I examine the Chosen and do a Forsaken Preview. If any of them have good Punishers I don't already have, I break them through Temptation or Negotiation. If any of them have self buffs to damage (Trauma or a Circumstance), I convert them through whatever Distortion maximizes that buff or those buffs. If I have a Forsaken Punisher that provides buffs to the same thing, I use them to to the Total Break. If the Chosen doesn't have any of these, I designate them as worthless and use them to build up all Total Breaks for both Achievements and self-buffs on my other Forsaken that I'm currently building. And right now I'm interested to see what I can do with Angel and Devil Chosen because I haven't really used them heavily, so I use those to try out new things.
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Well, I'm at Loop 20:
I did cheat past Loop 15 (Victory) so this run is not entirely legitimate. Some of the planned changes, I expect, will enable a more legitimate completion of that Loop. I beat Loop 16, which is actually my first fight against Angel Chosen. I wasn't able to get all T4 breaks vs the Superior chosen there (got 3/4) or defeat her during the Final Battle, but I did pick up the Undead that I posted above and an Angel Forsaken that constantly restores her Motivation.
This is where I'm playing out past planned content. I think Loop 20 is supposed to have the first re-occuring Boss fight eventually, when planned content is implemented.
I defeated Splendor with Megalomania, and did the same to Victory, so she shows up like this:
In addition to the new Forsaken I posted above, who is I feel going to prove her usefulness this Loop, I have several other Forsaken of note.
This is another Tempter with 4EE cost that can switch between EXPO and PLEA. She focuses a bit more on EXPO damage.
My favorite is Metalhead. I've discussed Forsaken like her before. Whenever I'm not sure what to do, I try Deploying her with all my EE and she rarely disappoints. She just does so much Trauma that it's hard not to get something useful out of her once I can put 20EE or so into her deployment. And at the end of the Loop if I've got several hundred extra EE laying around, she can turn that success into larger multipliers for herself through her two self-buffs.
I'm training up several Forsaken that still need to reach their full potential. But let's look at some Devils!
She doesn't have particularly useful Punishers with this exception that may come into play sometimes against Angel Chosen or maybe sometimes Devil Chosen:
If I'm totally lost as to what to do I might try sending her out after her auto-training to see if she can create an opening. I haven't used her yet.
I used her once during the last Loop and she was very effective at starting an Orgy. I can imagine that the Personal Hell ability to capture flying Chosen might be helpful, but I usually plan the Orgy such that they're all Flying afterwards and so recapturing 1 is not actually very helpful. If I re-did my Orgy strategies so that at the end only 1 was flying I could make great use of it, though.
And one more, though I haven't actually sent her out yet:
This is what Victory became. I wouldn't be surprised if she deployed for significant damage but I just haven't found a reason to use her.
Items:
These are very good items but also very standard. Mostly they give me a longer time to do things in Combat or make some accomplishments easier to do. Reign's and Balance's Pantsu change gameplay the most, probably (other than Tomorrow's Newspaper).
CSdev have you done much testing with two Angels? I think that's by far the more interesting of these two Loops. Not sure if it's easier or more difficult as I've only fought one Angel before but I'm more intrigued by it than the 75% Damage reduction in the other Loop.
I'm again pointing out that I'm playing past the end of current new content, so the Loops contain larger Damage Reduction, Luxuries, and shorter Final Battle times than the final game is expected to have.
I did cheat past Loop 15 (Victory) so this run is not entirely legitimate. Some of the planned changes, I expect, will enable a more legitimate completion of that Loop. I beat Loop 16, which is actually my first fight against Angel Chosen. I wasn't able to get all T4 breaks vs the Superior chosen there (got 3/4) or defeat her during the Final Battle, but I did pick up the Undead that I posted above and an Angel Forsaken that constantly restores her Motivation.
This is where I'm playing out past planned content. I think Loop 20 is supposed to have the first re-occuring Boss fight eventually, when planned content is implemented.
I defeated Splendor with Megalomania, and did the same to Victory, so she shows up like this:
In addition to the new Forsaken I posted above, who is I feel going to prove her usefulness this Loop, I have several other Forsaken of note.
This is another Tempter with 4EE cost that can switch between EXPO and PLEA. She focuses a bit more on EXPO damage.
My favorite is Metalhead. I've discussed Forsaken like her before. Whenever I'm not sure what to do, I try Deploying her with all my EE and she rarely disappoints. She just does so much Trauma that it's hard not to get something useful out of her once I can put 20EE or so into her deployment. And at the end of the Loop if I've got several hundred extra EE laying around, she can turn that success into larger multipliers for herself through her two self-buffs.
I'm training up several Forsaken that still need to reach their full potential. But let's look at some Devils!
She doesn't have particularly useful Punishers with this exception that may come into play sometimes against Angel Chosen or maybe sometimes Devil Chosen:
If I'm totally lost as to what to do I might try sending her out after her auto-training to see if she can create an opening. I haven't used her yet.
I used her once during the last Loop and she was very effective at starting an Orgy. I can imagine that the Personal Hell ability to capture flying Chosen might be helpful, but I usually plan the Orgy such that they're all Flying afterwards and so recapturing 1 is not actually very helpful. If I re-did my Orgy strategies so that at the end only 1 was flying I could make great use of it, though.
And one more, though I haven't actually sent her out yet:
This is what Victory became. I wouldn't be surprised if she deployed for significant damage but I just haven't found a reason to use her.
Items:
These are very good items but also very standard. Mostly they give me a longer time to do things in Combat or make some accomplishments easier to do. Reign's and Balance's Pantsu change gameplay the most, probably (other than Tomorrow's Newspaper).
CSdev have you done much testing with two Angels? I think that's by far the more interesting of these two Loops. Not sure if it's easier or more difficult as I've only fought one Angel before but I'm more intrigued by it than the 75% Damage reduction in the other Loop.
I'm again pointing out that I'm playing past the end of current new content, so the Loops contain larger Damage Reduction, Luxuries, and shorter Final Battle times than the final game is expected to have.
- Nov 7, 2019
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Big ask but I started playing again and I've finished loop 1 on Day 42 (not my best, I think I made some poor Distortion choices) and here's what I have to work with and I've read the included training guide and Kalloi's guide and nothing's clicking. Any pointers/explanation on what I should be doing with these gals would be very appreciated.
- Oct 14, 2020
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I understand that most people have a pretty strong instinct against throwing away potentially-useful-later resources in order to overcome the current challenge. It's the whole "save all your big revival items for the final boss" impulse. And if the game is using the "stick" approach rather than the "carrot" approach to make you sacrifice them, then it doesn't feel good to get so little out of it after you've worked so hard to recruit them. I'll have to think about some more ways to solve that.
I am glad that this is coming up now, because it's influencing some of my ideas for lategame items. A couple of them will either make it much easier to keep a large roster, or else give you a bigger bonus for sacrificing. The items aren't guaranteed to show up, though, so I should probably be looking for other solutions as well.
It'd be flavorful, but I'd worry about offering the player too many "trap" options, since the first boss you face after Splendor is already probably a difficulty spike. More types of bargain are always interesting to think about, though.
Yes, absolutely. There'll be several things coming over the next few updates.
1) Fixes to the Splendor's behavior, including the bugs where she wasn't offering an actionable bargain.
2) Better lategame items so you don't have all that Influence burning a hole in your pocket.
3) The midboss which appears every 7 loops - she'll offer some persistent buffs in later loops depending on your progress against her.
4) Rework to Tempted Forsaken - their base bonus right now is both boring and pretty weak, so I have some ideas to fix that.
5) More bosses in general. Right now, the only way to make use of the Megalomaniac Splendor bonus is to face her first and then Victory after. But once Love and Judgment are in, you'll be able to do something like Victory->Splendor->Love so that you aren't getting sabotaged so hard while also dealing with your Second-in-Command spot being occupied.
I still haven't faced two Angels at once in a "legitimate starting from Loop 1" playtest, so that would be new to me too. It's very interesting to see how you're using the new species.
You've got some very good ones, actually.
Miracle's got some very powerful Punisher buffs to Chosen she can T4 break. She can build you a stronger team all on her own in the Breeder, Harvester, and Publicist positions. Like, her buffs will basically be the basis for your second-generation Forsaken and she doesn't require really any training at all to do that.
Honey you have two choices for: she's strong enough that you can leave alone for her Breeder bonus (though weaker than I'd personally like her to be for that), or you can try to bring her EE cost down so that she's a usable Forsaken hitting HATE and PLEA. You'll have a lot of difficulty getting her Disgrace up for that, though, since she can't be set to auto-train Disgrace. You need her Disgrace to go up by 20-30 points and it's possible that there isn't a way to make it go up--you'll have to experiment since she can refuse trainings.
Oracle is probably the most ordinary of them. Set her as your Hypnotist for now for cheap and early T4 breaks. Pick one of her bonus circumstances (I'd recommend EXPO) and have her focus on that damage type. You can let her Disgrace go up a little bit if you want her to be cheaper--personally I wouldn't. She'll be almost immediately useful during your next Loop, allowing you to skip early Commander upgrades and go straight for a Dignity Break. Make sure to do a Grand Concert or Instill Fixation at some point so that she gets her Defiler, which allows her to switch between EXPO and PLEA damage.
Yeah it feels a bit bad. Especially because I know that these Forsaken in particular will be useful later to building a team of Angels/Devils. It's more like cashing in your retirement savings to afford to be able to afford your rent.
My Tempted Forsaken are consistently among my most useful, second only to the one Rampant Forsaken I allow myself to have. So I'm a bit interested to see why you think they need a buff. I build them in a very particular way, though, that takes advantage of their ability to switch damage types. I find the Averted and (especially) Negotiated Forsaken to overall be much more difficult to find the right spot to use them but I'm working on a couple that will eventually be pretty strong. Still my Tempted and Rampant Forsaken will probably be the best general purpose I can build for a while.
Yeah, it's definitely tricky. I'll post some progress later, probably.
- Oct 14, 2020
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The Tempt Defiler is plenty strong when leveraged properly, but the base effect for Tempted Forsaken isn't great: only a x1/4 Motivation deployment cost multiplier, while Rampant Forsaken outright restore Motivation by being deployed. Of course, Rampant Forsaken balance that by losing Motivation over time, but the Tempted Forsaken drawback of needing to stay below 40% Obedience can be pretty annoying too (and while Undead Tempted Forsaken are exempt from that drawback, the Animalistic and regular human Tempted Forsaken still have to deal with it). In general, I want to make sure that it's viable to use Distorted Forsaken even with non-Distortion Defilers.
OK yeah, that's why I don't use Animalistic Tempted, and stop using standard Tempted as soon as possible too. They are also really difficult to train Expertise since they start with high Deviancy, and their naturally low Obedience makes some training actions unusable--I might start with something that modifies their Expertise gain/Consent modifier, especially if you would like to see them being used outside of the Tempt Defiler as even training them out of PLEA/EXPO is a challenge (because of the 10k extra Expertise they start with in those). These Forsaken should really be up for anything that isn't outright painful because of the nature of their conversion--maybe a bonus to Consent for non-Obedience actions, and a bonus to Expertise for all training actions? And/Or a different bonus if you train their Obedience past 40%, like some kind of bonus to gaining Expertise? That might go a bit further to making them more generally useful.
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- Nov 7, 2019
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- 699
Thank you, I didn't even realize one Forsaken could hold multiple positions at the same time.
This helps tremendously. Time to see what I can do on my first Loop 2.
OK so let's dig into this just a bit.
With only 20 days in this Loop I will have to be maximally efficient with how I get breaks and utilize each combat day. I have some very strong Forsaken and I'm up against two Angel Chosen, which means, I think, that they both use their abilities to help the Animalistic, and the one with higher ANGST uses her abilities to help the other one. I'm going to skip ahead to day 2, buy Psychic Reading, get a handle on everything I see, and then go back and decide what I need to break Day 1.
In this first trial combat, the second Chosen joins the fight Turn 6. I know that this depends on the number of days left in the Loop. The first two are Angel Chosen, and the third Chosen, the Animalistic, shows up Round 26 and is weak to CON damage that round.
I can confirm that the second Angel Chosen helps the first Angel Chosen escape using her ability, but the first Angel Chosen doesn't help the second. I'm not able to tell how the two Angels interact with the Animalistic Chosen because she comes in Turn 26 after Extermination is complete.
After Combat, I buy Psychic Reading so that I can get some kind of plan for how to proceed.
I've already got an Angel Eager Partner to try out. The next bonus I'm interested in is Dissassociative Identity (Unleashed Angel) which says it gives a 200% bonus to all damage. That sounds amazing! I want it. I wanted it in Loop 16, but the Angel came pre-broken in a way that didn't allow me to get that Distortion. So, let's try that out on Release. On Testament, those Punishers are in areas I already have. I'd have liked it if I could make her Averted as well with that Trauma self-buff, but alas, she's already got her INN broken. I think I'll have to settle for Negotiated or Tempted here, and Tempted will definitely be easier to get since I have the Item that makes it easier. I want some Negotiated Angels too but I think that will have to wait for another Loop where there's a bit less going on all at once. For Moo, uh--she's kind of not got anything valuable going on. I do need to restock on useless/worthless Forsaken, so maybe she can be Tempted which will make it easier for her to Grand Concert later. That'll at least get me +100EE that I can use to get the breaks I want.
So my plan looks like this:
There's only one Core Vulnerability that's getting fully broken on this whole team, which means that I won't be getting a lot of EE from breaks.
So, this is enough info to try to go back to day 1. It might be possible to get a T2 MOR break on Release or a T2 DIG break on Testament using Metalhead. I could instead guarantee a CON break on Moo but this would be forsaking several +2EE breaks that I feel are more valuable to me.
I send out Metalhead day 1 to build up some Trauma, and she does manage to get the T2 MOR break I expected her to get.
I didn't grab a shot of them after Day 1, whoops!
Day 2 Moo is weak to DIG, so I send out Final Expodia. Expodia might be better, but I want to see how the Motivation restore works.
Here's where they stand after Day 2.
I think this is on track to accomplish what I want.
There's no real notification of what Trauma the Angels absorb and how that works. But it looks like: Release absorbs from Moo, then Testament absorbs from both Moo and Release. EE is 2, 1, 0 and the exponential levels of Trauma that Moo needs will make it difficult to get her beyond this point.
Testament is ready for Temptation and I think I can accomplish this today for the +100 EE. Release can also get a T1 DIG break, I won't push it necessarily, but if I see that I've got an extra Surround on her at the end I'll take it. I'll try Final EXPOdia again. She didn't lose any Motivation from the last deployment.
As for upgrades, I've bought everything 5EE or below. Thanks Tomorrow's Newspaper and Subjective Astrolabe!
After Day 3:
Testament does her Tempt downtime, because she was tempted. I now have 157 EE which I can use to get every major upgrade I need to have. This is important because I'm just not going to get much EE from Downtimes because of the Angel abilities. I go up and grab through: Networked Consciousness, Passion Release, Soul Resonance, and Reality Sealing. MMM that's good EE.
This also makes Testament the lowest-ANGST Angel, so she'll avoid using those abilities to help Release. This means I'll get full surround turns vs Release which may be important for the next combat.
I don't have very important goals for the next Combat. It might be possible to get an Orgy in the combat after that, when Moo is weak to PLEA, and I can start with a Force+ affecting both her and Release and therefore Orgy Testament without breaking her INN. So, I think today I'll send Metalhead out with some significant EE (73) for the first time, to create some major Trauma. I could instead go for the open CON break on Release--that one's not on a timer or anything, though, so I'll wait. Since Testament won't help Release escape, I decide to target Release first.
For Strategic Objectives, I finally have enough for Control Center, which compounds the damage from sending out the same Forsaken each time as I tend to do in the beginning.
After Day 4:
Hey, I'm finally up to 1EE vs Moo! Maybe I'll get to 2EE before the loop ends!
So this is the time I can possibly do an Orgy. I definitely want to at least break Moo's PLEA and get her set up for Tempt.
I also have enough Strategic Advantage to get the Transmission Tower to do a bit more compounding of damage.
With only 20 days in this Loop I will have to be maximally efficient with how I get breaks and utilize each combat day. I have some very strong Forsaken and I'm up against two Angel Chosen, which means, I think, that they both use their abilities to help the Animalistic, and the one with higher ANGST uses her abilities to help the other one. I'm going to skip ahead to day 2, buy Psychic Reading, get a handle on everything I see, and then go back and decide what I need to break Day 1.
In this first trial combat, the second Chosen joins the fight Turn 6. I know that this depends on the number of days left in the Loop. The first two are Angel Chosen, and the third Chosen, the Animalistic, shows up Round 26 and is weak to CON damage that round.
I can confirm that the second Angel Chosen helps the first Angel Chosen escape using her ability, but the first Angel Chosen doesn't help the second. I'm not able to tell how the two Angels interact with the Animalistic Chosen because she comes in Turn 26 after Extermination is complete.
After Combat, I buy Psychic Reading so that I can get some kind of plan for how to proceed.
Code:
Release +2 T1 T2 T3 T4
MOR (min) [ ][ ][ ][ ]
INN (sig) [ ][ ][ ][ ]
CON (core) [X][ ][ ][ ][ ]
DIG (core) [X][ ][ ][ ][ ]
Testament +2 T1 T2 T3 T4
MOR (core) [X][ ][ ][ ][ ]
INN (min) [X][X][ ][ ]
CON (sig) [ ][ ][ ][ ]
DIG (sig) [ ][ ][ ][ ]
Moo +2 T1 T2 T3 T4
MOR (sig) [ ][ ][ ][ ]
INN (core) [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
CON (min) [ ][ ][ ][ ]
DIG (min) [ ][ ][ ][ ] <- current weakness
If they become Forsaken, the current team of Chosen will have access to these abilities which activate when they perform a Total Break against future Chosen. Dignity Break will weaken the effects, but will also make them cheaper to deploy.
Release
Deployment cost: 500 Evil Energy
Scarring Breeder (+45.0% victim HATE damage as Forsaken)
Instructive Hypnotist (+45.0% victim PLEA damage as Forsaken)
Painful Harvester (+45% victim Resolve damage from Attack)
Notorious Publicist (+180% own trauma damage per Parasitism)
Testament
Deployment cost: 287 Evil Energy
Charming Breeder (+41.0% victim max Motivation)
Investigative Hypnotist (+8.2% own PLEA damage per Hypnosis)
Responsible Harvester (+16.4% victim Stamina regeneration)
Practical Publicist (+41.0% victim EXPO damage as Forsaken)
Moo
Deployment cost: 109 Evil Energy
Protective Breeder (+6.8% own max Stamina per Impregnation)
Loyal Hypnotist (+34 victim training consent modifier)
Dutiful Harvester (+109 EE per Drain)
Rising Publicist (-2% own Disgrace per Parasitism)So my plan looks like this:
There's only one Core Vulnerability that's getting fully broken on this whole team, which means that I won't be getting a lot of EE from breaks.
So, this is enough info to try to go back to day 1. It might be possible to get a T2 MOR break on Release or a T2 DIG break on Testament using Metalhead. I could instead guarantee a CON break on Moo but this would be forsaking several +2EE breaks that I feel are more valuable to me.
I send out Metalhead day 1 to build up some Trauma, and she does manage to get the T2 MOR break I expected her to get.
I didn't grab a shot of them after Day 1, whoops!
Day 2 Moo is weak to DIG, so I send out Final Expodia. Expodia might be better, but I want to see how the Motivation restore works.
Here's where they stand after Day 2.
I think this is on track to accomplish what I want.
There's no real notification of what Trauma the Angels absorb and how that works. But it looks like: Release absorbs from Moo, then Testament absorbs from both Moo and Release. EE is 2, 1, 0 and the exponential levels of Trauma that Moo needs will make it difficult to get her beyond this point.
Testament is ready for Temptation and I think I can accomplish this today for the +100 EE. Release can also get a T1 DIG break, I won't push it necessarily, but if I see that I've got an extra Surround on her at the end I'll take it. I'll try Final EXPOdia again. She didn't lose any Motivation from the last deployment.
As for upgrades, I've bought everything 5EE or below. Thanks Tomorrow's Newspaper and Subjective Astrolabe!
After Day 3:
Testament does her Tempt downtime, because she was tempted. I now have 157 EE which I can use to get every major upgrade I need to have. This is important because I'm just not going to get much EE from Downtimes because of the Angel abilities. I go up and grab through: Networked Consciousness, Passion Release, Soul Resonance, and Reality Sealing. MMM that's good EE.
This also makes Testament the lowest-ANGST Angel, so she'll avoid using those abilities to help Release. This means I'll get full surround turns vs Release which may be important for the next combat.
I don't have very important goals for the next Combat. It might be possible to get an Orgy in the combat after that, when Moo is weak to PLEA, and I can start with a Force+ affecting both her and Release and therefore Orgy Testament without breaking her INN. So, I think today I'll send Metalhead out with some significant EE (73) for the first time, to create some major Trauma. I could instead go for the open CON break on Release--that one's not on a timer or anything, though, so I'll wait. Since Testament won't help Release escape, I decide to target Release first.
For Strategic Objectives, I finally have enough for Control Center, which compounds the damage from sending out the same Forsaken each time as I tend to do in the beginning.
After Day 4:
Hey, I'm finally up to 1EE vs Moo! Maybe I'll get to 2EE before the loop ends!
So this is the time I can possibly do an Orgy. I definitely want to at least break Moo's PLEA and get her set up for Tempt.
I also have enough Strategic Advantage to get the Transmission Tower to do a bit more compounding of damage.
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Day 5:
I get +6EE from the scripted radio event. Moo's PLEA wasn't building fast enough because she didn't have the breaks in it yet and it's a moderately strong Core. So I just went ahead and got her to Tempted and got the needed breaks. Downtimes are +2, +1, +15.
This and the 100EE from Tempted brings me back up to 209EE. Seems like a good amount considering that I don't really need any more purchases. I might like to buy Impregnation and send out an Assist Raid Training Action tomorrow, which will increase the EE generation in a way they can't fight from the Trauma reduction. The rest of this will go towards whatever T4 breaks I manage to get. Sure hoping I get some at least.
It's Day 6 and I've got one more Distortion left to do to ensure a victory in the Loop. And I don't know how it interacts with the Angel abilities--can they absorb Trauma if they're catatonic? Hopefully this is the chance to find out.
And because our EE has been growing, let's try a new Forsaken:
She oughta be able to hurt them pretty bad and use Traumatize to build up a nice Orgy.
Day 6:
I succeed in getting the Orgy for 7 turns, which is what I need due to my Item. So, this loop is basically won--I can Distort all of them in the final battle. I only need a 4-turn Orgy due to Achievements.
But do I stop there?
If I can get a T3 break, I can probably get a Total Break. I'm especially interested in any I can get on Release because I'd like to buff her damage dealing on top of the +200% she gets from being Averted Angelic. But building up Trauma will be difficult because any Orgy reduces its duration by 3 per turn because of the Angels. That 7-turn Orgy actually only lasted 3 turns.
Today I'm skipping Combat and seeing what happens if I send out an Assist Raid. I can't make Orgy progress since Moo's weakness is CON and I can only hit one Chosen with that, so today wouldn't accomplish much anyway.
Combat 7: No new breaks
The Assist Raid leaves their Angst at 3G, 189M, and 9.7M. Good thing I wasn't planning on Negotiate.
I suppose I can try Final EXPOdia again and Orgy through DIG. It might work pretty well, since she hits EXPO first.
Combat 8: No new breaks
Release is at 34M Fear. I'd really like to get her Fear to break first, because I don't know if I can get any other T3/T4 breaks. The Angel INJU T3 move looks like it requires other people using T3 Breaks, and yeah honestly that seems pretty unlikely right now. Going to send out Metalhead backed by 185EE and see what kind of chaos she can wreak.
Combat 9:
This is kind of what I didn't want to happen. It looks like Release's CON break requires that I get someone else's T3 break as well, and that's... hard because she's absorbing most of their Trauma/Angst.
Testament is only at 9M DISG, which is kind of a long way away from 100M to get another break. It does get me the High-Rises unlocked. Honestly Entertainment Center may be better, though I think they're about the same. High Rises skips over the 999 threshold because they all hit Level 5 of Circ damage last combat, so it allows me to do everything another turn early. Entertainment District quintuples Trauma (no it doesn't), which is about what I'd expect for one more surround turn at this rate. I've gone with High Rises but I can always try the other one. Edit: Realized that it's not actually quintuple Trauma, just calculates downtimes as if Trauma was quintupled. That's pretty useless to me in this combat.
I'm sending out Bloodlust again, since it seemed to work pretty well last time and now we start with Level 1 EXPO.
OK, either I'm not understanding something or it's a bug. Here's combat, round 24.
Now, if Moo is escaping at triple speed, that means both Release and Testament are using their abilities on her. So far so good.
But then why do I see this at the start of round 25?
If Release is using her ability, shouldn't she still be surrounded for 5 turns and Frozen?
Or does the fact that Testament is using her ability help Release, even though Testament has lower Angst and I see this on her Examine?
Just trying to make sure I understand how it works. If I surrounded Testament right now, I'd expect her Surrounds to be going down at double speed (because Release is helping her escape), Moo to be still ticking down triple speed, and Release would be??? Going down one per turn from Testament helping or frozen? Not sure and would like clarification CSdev.
Also I'm not sure I like this, but maybe it's working the way you want it to:
Thematically, it makes sense that I can't target Release at all if she's giving everything she's got to flee the battlefield. But if she's doing that, she can't really be helping Testament escape, right? Like, she's described in this way:
So, I'm not sure how she's helping Testament escape. This is at least partially a thematic thing more than a mechanical thing of course and you can handle it whatever way keeps it how you feel it should be balanced. It makes sense to me that Angels that are catatonic might not want to absorb the Trauma of their fellows and that a panicked fleeing Angel wouldn't be able to help her comrades escape, but if it needs to be that way for balance then you can write some explanation. Basically if she's still helping with the combat I feel I should be able to target her with at least standard attacks
Anyway I've made negative progress on Testament's T3 break, she's down to 5M Disg from over 9M. It's overall not looking good for T3/T4 breaks happening this Loop.
And that's where I stop for the day. The next day has Moo on CON weakness again, which is very difficult to make progress with. I get 10EE from the vacation scripted event, and maybe I'll have different ideas about how to progress tomorrow.
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- Nov 7, 2019
- 322
- 699
What's the priority system for T1 breaks? I have a Chosen with Core Morality / Minor Dignity and no breaks. I've used Barrier Jammer to start her with 10k Hate but when I go to do an opening action, Grind will always break Dignity and the other three actions won't break anything until I've broken Dignity at which point Pummel will break Morality.
Is it because Dignity is Minor or is there a priority system for the breaks regardless of vulnerabilities?
Is it because Dignity is Minor or is there a priority system for the breaks regardless of vulnerabilities?
- Nov 7, 2019
- 322
- 699
Here's what I'm up against in Loop 2:
If Chaos goes Rampancy, Miracle goes Aversion, and Tyrant goes Aversion or Negotiation; then Chaos and Miracle can be friends and Miracle and Tyrant can be friends and it's just Tyrant and Chaos who won't get along.
But can you even do Negotiation and Rampancy on the same team since Rampancy zeroes out Trauma? And am I just thinking about this all wrong? That's generally how I approach Chosen squads: I look at what distortions hit as many cores and minors as possible but I'm wondering if that's not what I'm supposed to be doing at all.
If Chaos goes Rampancy, Miracle goes Aversion, and Tyrant goes Aversion or Negotiation; then Chaos and Miracle can be friends and Miracle and Tyrant can be friends and it's just Tyrant and Chaos who won't get along.
But can you even do Negotiation and Rampancy on the same team since Rampancy zeroes out Trauma? And am I just thinking about this all wrong? That's generally how I approach Chosen squads: I look at what distortions hit as many cores and minors as possible but I'm wondering if that's not what I'm supposed to be doing at all.