VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

[PervySageKem]

Hahaha I understand very well that it is your opinion. I never meant to imply otherwise as it is always assumed that what you say is your opinion, as well as mine.

But your comment was "I believe this is a porn story, so I don't think there is need for anything like that". Your argument is as follows. By definition of porn story, stories are simple. So because you state as assumption that this is a porn story, you reach the conclusion that the story should be simple. Therefore, your argument is a tautology. The problem lies in that your assumption is not necessarily true, not in your conclusion.

My point was telling you that your opinion is precisely not truth so no, these are not necessarily simple porn stories (even if as I said I agree with you about your statement about Haley). In fact, if you have not, I strongly recommend you to read Acting Lessons. You will see that there is more to the story than simple porn (to the point in which I say with confidence that you could remove all sex and the story would be considered equally good).

However, once again, you are assuming that the reader should be foreshadowed about any kind of potential plot, even if slightly. That is in my opinion very wrong. That is why I mentioned genre shift. And any other setting in which surprise effect is intended and/or needed.

No, not at all. What you just did is named a "Strawman argument". You intentionally misrepresented my own opinion in order to make it easier for you to combat it, instead of actually addressing the argument.

You simplified it ad ridiculum like I just said "because porn simple, this porn, therefore simple". No.

Like I said in my bigger comment "anyone can write a story however they want". I just find that whenever someone writes a simple, easy-going game like "Haley's Story", trying to make a big deal out of it a make it bigger and more complex than it should be is a detriment to its own cause. And when I say "should be" I am not saying that stories shouldn't be complex, I'm saying that if the mission statement and objective is to make a simples story, adding complex elements to it shouldn't be done.

Once again: Berserk always presented itself has a complex story, so having complex themes is par for the course.

If a game presents itself as a simple romance and the author doesnt want to think a lot of how to face and overcome trauma, don't add the trauma in the first place. It's pretty clear in this game that the dev naively thought it was going to be a simple story elementa that could be glossed over and ignored, not realizing what a complex theme it is.

Another thing regarding logical fallcies: just because there exist complex Adult Visual Novels that are good, it doesn't mean that all AVN's should be complex. Neither that every AVN that is complex is good.

The devs must respect their mission statement: if they want to make a simple game, dont fall into the trap of introducing complex themes expecting the audience will ignore them and fast-forward them.

 

[Ayhsel]

No, not at all. What you just did is named a "Strawman argument". You intentionally misrepresented my own opinion in order to make it easier for you to combat it, instead of actually addressing the argument.

You simplified it ad ridiculum like I just said "because porn simple, this porn, therefore simple". No.

Actually, the one that is doing that is you. You can phrase is as complex as you want, but I explained your argument as it is. And here is a quote, from you, saying exactly what your argument is. Because it is porn, it should be simple. That follows by definition.

At the end of the day, it's porn. I think people tend to forget that, acting like this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual.

Another thing regarding logical fallcies: just because there exist complex Adult Visual Novels that are good, it doesn't mean that all AVN's should be complex. Neither that every AVN that is complex is good.

I agree with this statement, although I have never said it neither suggested it. If it appears I did, it was a language mistake.

Like I said in my bigger comment "anyone can write a story however they want". I just find that whenever someone writes a simple, easy-going game like "Haley's Story", trying to make a big deal out of it a make it bigger and more complex than it should be is a detriment to its own cause. And when I say "should be" I am not saying that stories shouldn't be complex, I'm saying that if the mission statement and objective is to make a simples story, adding complex elements to it shouldn't be done.

Once again: Berserk always presented itself has a complex story, so having complex themes is par for the course.

If a game presents itself as a simple romance and the author doesnt want to think a lot of how to face and overcome trauma, don't add the trauma in the first place. It's pretty clear in this game that the dev naively thought it was going to be a simple story elementa that could be glossed over and ignored, not realizing what a complex theme it is.

The devs must respect their mission statement: if they want to make a simple game, dont fall into the trap of introducing complex themes expecting the audience will ignore them and fast-forward them.

First, here is a fallacy of you. Claiming that something is "pretty clear" is no proof. And in fact you are making two underlying assumptions that not only are not necessarily correct, but there is no reason to make.

The first one I got tired several times of explaining it to you. Stories evolve and there is no need to keep the mood and setting as it is. What you argue that is obvious could have been planned from the get to (I am confident it was not, but what we believe is irrelevant from the point of view of logic). Neither is any need for foreshadowing. If you need to be foreshadowed of any potential possible trauma, the problem lies in you. Moreover, there is the problem of how the define trauma by itself.

Second, and more important, you claim that authors must respect their mission statement. This is more complex so I divide it steps.

First and foremost, there was not mission statement, so you cannot claim that statement is false if it does not exist. After all, the empty set satisfy all logical statements (except being non empty, of course). To say that the statement would be violated logically you need to show the following: there exist element $x$ in the set of statements of the mission statement that is false in the novel. The problem is that as there is no statement $x$ because the set is empty, you cannot find any element $x$ to claim that it is false. Therefore, no violation.

Second, even if there was such thing, you are assuming that plans and statements do not change. Unless there was a written contract between parts and one of the parts is unhappy, there is no reason why not to change plans.

 

[PervySageKem]

I'll try to go in parts.

"Actually, the one that is doing that is you. You can phrase is as complex as you want, but I explained your argument as it is. And here is a quote, from you, saying exactly what your argument is. Because it is porn, it should be simple. That follows by definition. "

In the quote you presented I said " At the end of the day, it's porn. I think people tend to forget that, acting like this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual. ". Read it again and again. Where in that statement do I say what you atribute to be my opinion? You claimed that my opinion was:

"But your comment was "I believe this is a porn story, so I don't think there is need for anything like that". That is what you said my opinion was. And the quote you presented in which I "affirmed that opinion" I was saying "at the end of the day this is porn, people tend to forget that and act like this needs to be super deep." How are these two phrases even remotely similar? I literally never said "Because it's porn, it should be simple". I said "because it's porn, people don't need to act like it needs to be complex". Completely different.

This shows you are misinterpetting on purpose what I distinctly wrote in order to present my opinion incorrectly.

" My point was telling you that your opinion is precisely not truth so no, these are not necessarily simple porn stories " → My opinion is not truth? How can an opinion even be the truth. That phrase in itself is so moronic I don't even know what you were even implying with it.

" I agree with this statement, although I have never said never suggested it. " → I shall demonstrate how you made it look like you had this opinion in a simplified form of this argument you made: "Because Acting Lessons was a good complex AVN, these aren't simple porn stories".

You said that here: "My point was telling you that your opinion is precisely not truth so no, these are not necessarily simple porn stories (even if as I said I agree with you about your statement about Haley). In fact, if you have not, I strongly recommend you to read Acting Lessons. You will see that there is more to the story than simple porn "

Just because one game was complex and good, other do not need to be complex to be good nor does attempting to turn them complex in the middle make them good.

"First and foremost, there was not mission statement" → Yes, you are correct there never is a literal mission statement. English is not my first language so I literally do not know how the best expression to say what I meant with this. It's not a literal mission statement, more like "the idea that spawned the game and brought life to it and it's development". Not "respecting a literal mission statement". But respecting what they tried to do with the game. They made a simple game with a simple setting and simple premise and suddenly they changed it.

You can talk about "genre shift", and how it adds value to certain movies and books. This isn't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about mood, setting, feel of the story. If The Lord of the Rings turned into the Wizard of Oz or the Muppets during the Two Towers, it would be a genre shift... But it wouldn't add value to the story, would it?

I understand you will never agree with me because you feel like stories should always be allowed to change in the middle. I argue they should change for the better, not for the worse, and if they change the story shouldn't do a completely 180º.

 

[UncleFredo]

...

I understand you will never agree with me because you feel like stories should always be allowed to change in the middle. I argue they should change for the better, not for the worse, and if they change the story shouldn't do a completely 180º.

Until the VN is finished, all of us are watching a development process. Which means that NONE of us, unless informed by the author, know when we've hit the "middle" of the story nor any other milestone along the way.

Further while we each have an opinion about how we'd prefer each subplot and the over all plot to evolve, NONE of us are in the position to dictate to the author what change is for the better. All we have is our opinion and the option to opt out if we decide the story is moving in a direction we find unpleasant.

If you really want a story that evolves as you think it should, write your own VN. Otherwise, while debates about possible plot shifts can be entertaining, and we can all express our opinion about the story's evolution, we need to recognize we're arguing about opinion, which has NO weight.

 

[Ayhsel]

I'll try to go in parts.

"Actually, the one that is doing that is you. You can phrase is as complex as you want, but I explained your argument as it is. And here is a quote, from you, saying exactly what your argument is. Because it is porn, it should be simple. That follows by definition. "

In the quote you presented I said " At the end of the day, it's porn. I think people tend to forget that, acting like this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual. ". Read it again and again. Where in that statement do I say what you atribute to be my opinion? You claimed that my opinion was:

"But your comment was "I believe this is a porn story, so I don't think there is need for anything like that". That is what you said my opinion was. And the quote you presented in which I "affirmed that opinion" I was saying "at the end of the day this is porn, people tend to forget that and act like this needs to be super deep." How are these two phrases even remotely similar?

This shows you are misinterpetting on purpose what I distinctly wrote in order to present my opinion incorrectly.

" My point was telling you that your opinion is precisely not truth so no, these are not necessarily simple porn stories " → My opinion is not truth? How can an opinion even be the truth. That phrase in itself is so moronic I don't even know what you were even implying with it.

" I agree with this statement, although I have never said never suggested it. " → I shall demonstrate how you made it look like you had this opinion in a simplified form of this argument you made: "Because Acting Lessons was a good complex AVN, these aren't simple porn stories".

You said that here: "My point was telling you that your opinion is precisely not truth so no, these are not necessarily simple porn stories (even if as I said I agree with you about your statement about Haley). In fact, if you have not, I strongly recommend you to read Acting Lessons. You will see that there is more to the story than simple porn "

Just because one game was complex and good, other do not need to be complex to be good nor does attempting to turn them complex in the middle make them good.

"First and foremost, there was not mission statement" → Yes, you are correct there never is a literal mission statement. English is not my first language so I literally do not know how the best expression to say what I meant with this. It's not a literal mission statement, more like "the idea that spawned the game and brought life to it and it's development". Not "respecting a literal mission statement". But respecting what they tried to do with the game. They made a simple game with a simple setting and simple premise and suddenly they changed it.

You can talk about "genre shift", and how it adds value to certain movies and books. This isn't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about mood, setting, feel of the story. If The Lord of the Rings turned into the Wizard of Oz or the Muppets during the Two Towers, it would be a genre shift... But it wouldn't add value to the story, would it?

I understand you will never agree with me because you feel like stories should always be allowed to change in the middle. I argue they should change for the better, not for the worse, and if they change the story shouldn't do a completely 180º.

We can disagree about what is or should not be. But simply to point to your question. This is the way your statement is read (as well as the other of your comments.. I simply call the most straighforward)

Your statement is " At the end of the day, it's porn. I think people tend to forget that, acting like this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual "
The way this is read is as follows. It could be an language problem, English is not my main language either. But all communication is a sender sending a message that is noisy trying to convey an idea, hoping the receiver will get it.

*At the end of the day" which can be read as "ultimately, in the argument", implying that this is essentially the core of your claim.

The rest of the statement is as follows.

"Because people forget its porn, they act as if this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual."

Logically, it is A then B statement.

A: Because people forget its porn.
B: They act as if this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual.

Negate B to get "People don't act as if this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual"

Negate A to get "They don't forget its porn"

Therefore, people are not acting as if this is some deep novel, therefore they remember its porn. So people treat porn as if it the stories are not deep. This is precisely because this is the difference between porn and adult novels in general. Making the argument tautologic.

Anyway, the points are made. I need to actually work on other productive things.

 

[PervySageKem]

Until the VN is finished, all of us are watching a development process. Which means that NONE of us, unless informed by the author, know when we've hit the "middle" of the story nor any other milestone along the way.

Further while we each have an opinion about how we'd prefer each subplot and the over all plot to evolve, NONE of us are in the position to dictate to the author what change is for the better. All we have is our opinion and the option to opt out if we decide the story is moving in a direction we find unpleasant.

If you really want a story that evolves as you think it should, write your own VN. Otherwise, while debates about possible plot shifts can be entertaining, and we can all express our opinion about the story's evolution, we need to recognize we're arguing about opinion, which has NO weight.

I know that. I've stated in my bigger comment how I do not want to barrage the author to change things, I merely post my opinion for two reasons: First reason, I can't keep my mouth shut and I always comment with a positive review or a negative review. Second reason, I always have a little hope that someone that will make a VN reads my comment and the little seedling of my opinon might in the future help the creation of a game with my opinion.

Regarding the middle of development or whatnot, I don't really know where you were going with that so I don't know what to respond. I try to play games that are finished.

 

[PervySageKem]

We can disagree about what is or should not be. But simply to point to your question. This is the way your statement is read (as well as the other of your comments.. I simply call the most straighforward)

Your statement is " At the end of the day, it's porn. I think people tend to forget that, acting like this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual "
The way this is read is as follows: I will decompose it to you. It could be an language problem, English is not my main language either. But all communication is a sender sending a message that is noisy trying to convey an idea, hoping the receiver will get it.

*At the end of the day" which can be read as "ultimately, in the argument", implying that this is essentially the core of your claim.

The rest of the statement is as follows.

"Because people forget its porn, they act as if this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual."

Logically, it is A then B statement.

A: Because people forget its porn.
B: They act as if this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual.

Negate B to get "People don't act as if this is some novel that must be super deep and intellectual"

Negate A to get "They don't forget its porn"

Therefore, people are not acting as if this is some deep novel, therefore they remember its porn. So people treat porn as if it the stories are not deep. This is precisely because this is the difference between porn and adult novels in general. Making the argument tautologic.

Anyway, the points are made. I need to actually work on other productive things.

Ok, I'll leave you to work but I really don't understand what the hell you took from that phrase since it is so simple.

People were acting in the comments like every story needs to be really complex and can't be simple. I was reminding them "this is porn, it doesn't need to be complex".

I don't know how you can take that sentence and attribute so many different things that I never said and were never my opinion.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Ok, I'll leave you to work but I really don't understand what the hell you took from that phrase since it is so simple.

People were acting in the comments like every story needs to be really complex and can't be simple. I was reminding them "this is porn, it doesn't need to be complex".

I don't know how you can take that sentence and attribute so many different things that I never said and were never my opinion.

You not old enough to remember porn movies from before internet are you? I mean, these days porn is just wham baam thank you maam. Raw fucking with little to no context, story or depth. There was a time when full feature porn movies was a thing. Cheesy stories and plots? Shallow characters? Could be, but there was those that was more complex and tried to be more than just porn as well.

Your reasoning porn doesn't need to be complex.... yet the creator is presenting this as an "adult themed novel".... adult doesn't equal porn. It just mean material not suitable for minors. Does it contain lewd scenes and sex? Yeah, but that is not the focus of the story. Take Game of thrones, nudity, sex, incest. Is it porn? I referenced "Fifty Shades Of Gray" earlier. It contains spicy lewdness and sex.. Is it porn? Is the paperback romance books/novels aimed at a female audience porn because they contain spicy and lewd stuff? If you don't like more complex stories (even the story doesn't need to), then just don't get involved in them? And for the love of god, I hope you never watched "LOST" and never will, because the complexity and loose ends would kill you...

 

[PervySageKem]

You not old enough to remember porn movies from before internet are you? I mean, these days porn is just wham baam thank you maam. Raw fucking with little to no context, story or depth. There was a time when full feature porn movies was a thing. Cheesy stories and plots? Shallow characters? Could be, but there was those that was more complex and tried to be more than just porn as well.

Your reasoning porn doesn't need to be complex.... yet the creator is presenting this as an "adult themed novel".... adult doesn't equal porn. It just mean material not suitable for minors. Does it contain lewd scenes and sex? Yeah, but that is not the focus of the story. Take Game of thrones, nudity, sex, incest. Is it porn? I referenced "Fifty Shades Of Gray" earlier. It contains spicy lewdness and sex.. Is it porn? Is the paperback romance books/novels aimed at a female audience porn because they contain spicy and lewd stuff? If you don't like more complex stories (even the story doesn't need to), then just don't get involved in them? And for the love of god, I hope you never watched "LOST" and never will, because the complexity and loose ends would kill you...

I haven't been responding to you and that clearly hurt your feelings so you are still lashing out even when I'm ignoring you.

Look, your grammar is really poor in your writting so I just assume you misread some of my comments and I just don't want to engage in conversation with you. It's an exercise in futility, you won't understand what I'm saying and I'll be barking at the wind.

I'll try to give you my final say to you:

Porn or Adult Novels don't need to be complex to be good. They can be simple and be good, they can be simple and be bad, they can be complex and be good, they can be complex and be bad.

I've never said I don't like complex stories, I've watched Lost and I liked it, don't act like a kid.

I just stated the opinion "These stories don't need to be complex to be good". And I'll add this: adding a simple rape mcguffin that gets ignored doesn't make them more complex!

 

[Joshua Tree]

I haven't been responding to you and that clearly hurt your feelings so you are still lashing out even when I'm ignoring you.

Look, your grammar is really poor in your writting so I just assume you misread some of my comments and I just don't want to engage in conversation with you. It's an exercise in futility, you won't understand what I'm saying and I'll be barking at the wind.

I'll try to give you my final say to you:

Porn or Adult Novels don't need to be complex to be good. They can be simple and be good, they can be simple and be bad, they can be complex and be good, they can be complex and be bad.

I've never said I don't like complex stories, I've watched Lost and I liked it, don't act like a kid.

I just stated the opinion "These stories don't need to be complex to be good". And I'll add this: adding a simple rape mcguffin that gets ignored doesn't make them more complex!

I could change to my native language, and then see how well you did understand that if you prefer? For someone that started to accuse people of "like rape" because they didn't protest of how it was used as background ploy in this game, you hold no merit calling someone a kid...

oh btw... at least I know "writing" is spelled with ONE t... regardless of how bad my grammar is..

 

[PervySageKem]

I could change to my native language, and then see how well you did understand that if you prefer? For someone that started to accuse people of "like rape" because they didn't protest of how it was used as background ploy in this game, you hold no merit calling someone a kid...

oh btw... at least I know "writing" is spelled with ONE t... regardless of how bad my grammar is..

Yes, one little typo. You don't conjugate phrases correctly and you think that little typo is the same thing.

You still didn't address the issue regarding my final opinion. My final opinion "Porn and Adult Novels don't need to be complex to be good, they can be simple and still be good". Do you disagree with it?

 

[Joshua Tree]

Yes, one little typo. You don't conjugate phrases correctly and you think that little typo is the same thing.

You still didn't address the issue regarding my final opinion. My final opinion "Porn and Adult Novels don't need to be complex to be good, they can be simple and still be good". Do you disagree with it?

It doesn't need to, no, but we are not the judge to decide on what a creators creation is, or isn't. It's the creator. If you don't agree with it, that is on you, not them. In this case the creator present it as an "adult themed novel", and you insist it should be simple porn and doesn't require x & y to make the story. That is not your decision to make, you are not the creator. A writer of a story can put in as many mcguffins and ploys into a story as he/she want. They can leave loose ends, pink unicorns, aliens, whatever that doesn't need to be wrapped up to complete the story they set out to make, they just there to drive things forward. You as a reader can decide if you like it or not. You can write a review and critique it if you want. But you hold no ownership/claim over the creation to decide what it should be. It's like go watch some action flick and then bitch about it's not a romance.

You still didn't respond to what is porn or just content intended for adults either..

 

[PhoenixFireeye]

Is there a download for just the bugfix? I don't want to redownload the entire game just for the bugfix.

 

[Cartageno]

People were acting in the comments like every story needs to be really complex and can't be simple. I was reminding them "this is porn, it doesn't need to be complex".

I understand it exactly the other way round. You were saying that it shouldn't include more - let's say - controversial and "unhappy" themes because it was intended to be a light story and there was no need for that. However it is to me and apparently others not at all clear that this was ever intended just to be a fun romp getting jiggy with the twin for the Big I kink and that's it. True, the game starts off innocently enough (given the basic premise which lured us all into here), but having a harmless and fun setting suddenly be more than it appears really is one of the oldest tricks in the book. So this default line doesn't exist for me.

You argued that porn/AVNs do not work exactly as other media (books, movies, etc.), and that is generally true, but they can still draw from the same pool of storytelling resources. And as the U2 album correctly stated there are quite a few (a minority, sure, but still quite a few) movies from olden times, which do feature porn (as in explicit sex seen uncensored and in detail onscreen) but are also movies with actual plots and actual main themes which are only aided or expanded by the explicit stuff but you can just watch them for the story and ignore the fucking every 30 minutes or so.

In the end I think (but of course may be wrong) most of your argument hinges on your impression that this was intended to be "just another bro-sis spectacle" which got stuffed with stuff because it would be too short otherwise. We've all seen those games which droned (and in some cases still drone) on for too long even though nothing noteworthy is happening anymore. Is this one of them? Well, we don't know unless the dev tells us (and then they could be an unreliable narrator as well). But I do not share this impression.

 

[HornyyPussy]

It doesn't need to, no, but we are not the judge to decide on what a creators creation is, or isn't. It's the creator. If you don't agree with it, that is on you, not them. In this case the creator present it as an "adult themed novel", and you insist it should be simple porn and doesn't require x & y to make the story. That is not your decision to make, you are not the creator. A writer of a story can put in as many mcguffins and ploys into a story as he/she want. They can leave loose ends, pink unicorns, aliens, whatever that doesn't need to be wrapped up to complete the story they set out to make, they just there to drive things forward. You as a reader can decide if you like it or not. You can write a review and critique it if you want. But you hold no ownership/claim over the creation to decide what it should be. It's like go watch some action flick and then bitch about it's not a romance.

You still didn't respond to what is porn or just content intended for adults either..

You , Carta and Ayhsel need to stop interacting with this guy, you'll just give yourselves headaches! He has no interest in anyone elses opinion other than his own no matter how eloquently he try to phrase it.

And when he starts belittling people because they don't use correct grammatical structures he just tosses any kind of credibility he might have out the window.

 

[Walter Victor]

Tell me something: this game as an excellent romance between two characters. That's the main thing that makes these games better than regular porn, it's the romance and the relationships. Does the rape really enhance the experience?

And once again I ask you: if you start feeling something toward a character because you are immersed in the story and the character is raped/was raped, do you enjoy the story more or less? Because I, for one, do not wish for my loved ones to be raped and I feel anguish when I am immersed in these stories and the characters I like are raped.

I can only speak for my own experience with this particular plot line. From the first release, I enjoyed this game for the brilliant character development and the engaging interplay between the MC and Haley. Then the 'rape' revelation hit us. I was dismayed... appalled. Who wouldn't be when I found out that one of my favorite characters had been so mistreated? However, I reacted differently than some people. I was drawn closer to Haley and the game. I became even more involved in how this drama would be resolved. In other words, I liked the game even more than before. Certainly not because Haley had been raped, but because I became even more immersed in the plot and wanted to see her overcome her past.

You obviously had a different reaction. That's okay. People react differently to any given stimulus. But, I don't see a right or wrong in this discussion. Just different reactions and opinions.

So, this is STILL my favorite game of all time on F95. I don't consider it the best, but it's my favorite.

 

[Walter Victor]

Another Patreon preview post of the new game:

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Progress report

Hi

Still working on the demo. I don't have a lot to say yet. You'll mostly have to experience for yourself.

But we're making good progress. And it should be ready on the 20'th.

Not much else to report so far.

Viit

 

[MayJames]

"I am a lawyer... and you are dating my son" .... first adult game to make me laugh...thx for that
Looove the story and visuals.
if i had a wish free for this game... when an animation loads cjange to a more dark audio theme or none, but than ad some moans or screams or similar. claps should be easy for the ... spanking

 

[Zoey Raven]

The walkthrough doesn't explain how to get each ending, is there an ending guide anywhere? Sorry for the spam.

It's all based on what variables you choose way before. All of the games Ptolemy works on are like this. So, you would have to go WAY back to close to mid game to change those outcomes. That or use the dev console to change variables. It's brilliant coding if you ask me. Simple, but really effective.

 

[Darth Whisper]

the variables change slightly the more you make choices on the {route} dialogue options.