Ok, my Johny fighted fog everyday and managed to become a S++ Fighter.
Another question, the Lord Specture disappeared, any clues or hints?
Another question, the Lord Specture disappeared, any clues or hints?
So I took out loans and completed two D+ class slaves in the slums with Johnny. After that I completed a C+ slave without the need for a loan, also in the slums. Then I trained a gladiator champion for the bull ring. Next I trained a B+ class slave with loans. At that point I had about 3000 sparks and moved into the outcasts house. I took on Isabella and followed your advice to not focus on her. We trained two A+ slaves, the first with loans and the second without. Now I'm working on my first S+ slave and then I will focus on getting the cow and egg layer setup. After that I will start training two slaves at a time but I'm holding off for the moment because it takes alot of energy to do. With the bull ring Johnny can push pretty hard but Isabella is a bit weak. She has moved up to A- on her own with a few tweaks from me. I just let her train as much as she can and I train her sexually and she has been rising up pretty nice.
I did run into another impossible slave that I had to ditch and you asked me to upload it if it did it again. She has great stats and no negative traits when I bought her however, she has multiple negative traits that show up over time and I couldn't find a way to work around them. She is basically incapable of being affected by shame or pain. I can improve her mood but her obedience is very stubborn. I managed to get her down to 6 globes of resistance before I just stopped messing with her. It was taking way too long and would have bankrupted me for sure.
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Disappeared or was never there? Need to have 15k sparks, B+ guild rep, B+ brand rep and patrician status.
Not wearing a collar so got her a steel one and crown of thowns for taming.
Disabled deny toileting and maid rules since she won't follow them without enforcement and punishments don't work.
Cast magna magnifika daily to help with taming. Encourage daily (if needed) to raise her mood.
Cast Sententia Veritas daily to increase her merit and use school/tutor for lessons.
Reward with restaurant or golden cage for 5 merit to raise devotion. Reward with perfume for first 4 merit, then theater/beach for devotion.
Because she is spoiled, tutor for other subjects produces enough merit for a second daily reward so devotion rises faster than spoiling.
Making progress...
Wow. Thanks. Not immediately obvious how this is happening. Will investigate...
Well. I may find the reason. She is pregnant. I am not sure how this happened.
I just found her too thin, so I decided take her as a pig then fed her into voluptuous. Then I found this problem.
Buy the way, the Calorie data is extremely unbalanced since it only takes 6 sparks to take a pig from pony to volupous and it costs me 110 sparks every decade to only raise 20 in her physique (2 everyday).
Here are the saves. If you want, you can search to find what happened.
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After I solved this problem, I found her calorie become normal but then it became strange again. I can not think of any reason now.
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In day 1070, her is not pregnant. In day 1075, pregnant. In 1103, her aborted and this problem seemed to be solved, but it will appear for no reason later. You just need to pass some days.
Alright after putting it off for a while i'm returning to this site and thread to read and address the responses.
Augustus i have little to object to in your latest response, most of what you've said is very reasonable. Also in retrospect i directed a good amount of vitriol at you and while you'd have been justified to respond in kind you didn't. I've probably misjudged you in many ways and a lot of my anger is coming from other places, that's not fair and i apologise for it. I do stand by that you have a tendency to be massively autistic about some things but i do the same in different ways so glass houses and all that. I'll address what i have issues with otherwise i largely agree.
Also hard disagree that it doesn't matter if the time taken or actions required are different, it absolutely does. With anything turn based that's about all that matters in terms of difficulty.
Qwerty your post is cleanly split between things i agree with 100% and vehemently disagree with. Same rules, if i don't address it agreement is implied. This is too long already and will be longer still otherwise.
I agree i'm going to have trouble persuading most people of anything with this approach but oh well, i know how my brain is wired and don't have much of a choice. Charisma is a dump stat anyway.
This game is cursed, there's a clear established pattern of development going down a bad path, player feedback not being listened to, the game being abandoned and picked up again by someone else with a different vision - repeat forever. I care about the future and preservation of the game so if i'm seeing the same pattern emerge again then naturally i'm going to try and course correct and get frustrated when my efforts seemingly fail. I'm probably entirely unqualified for the task though with the sole exception that it pisses me off so much. The "just go along with whatever state it's in until it dies again who cares lmao" crowd will never understand.
Years of time where i played your versions on and off, had issues and yet never commented at all. When i finally did comment it was brief and then i left again for a year. When i returned to raise issues again i started to regret it near immediately, have stopped mentioning any other issues i have and left the entire site several times without checking for responses to do other things i care about more. When the changes i apparently care so much about were implemented i still didn't touch the game and my only interaction with anything jont related now is occasionally returning here begrudgingly out of obligation to correct misrepresentations which continue to pop up. All i want at this stage is to be done here so i can have my time and mental energy back and i've made that crystal clear many times.
So no, i call bullshit. You're arguing in bad faith and there's no way you genuinely think that's my goal. Speaking of bad faith arguments, that's exactly what the vast majority of debate techniques and regular debaters are which is a major reason why i refuse to participate in them. They're just an evolution of chimp shit-flinging to own the other guy hidden behind a transparent veil of civility. I respect the former more because while it's still disgusting and pointless it's at least honest.
First off I can beat this version on normal, i've done it twice with 2 of the hardest characters in the game and my own challenge conduct on top of that. I've stated this multiple times too, here's one of many quotes addressing it.
Secondly i'm looking at this from a new player's perspective. I'm as far removed from new as you're ever going to get so whether i can cope with it or not doesn't matter much. We need new players to keep this going and they need to be catered to more than any other demographic in my opinion. I'll remind you it was exceptionally common for new players to bounce off 1.2.1 (the absolute easiest the game has ever been) with how much you need to frontload learning just to be halfway competent and even then get blindsided by unforeseen problems. Contracts that version thinks will take 3 decades take me 3 days when i'm barely trying (no i'm not saying we need to go back to this but keep it in mind if you want to avoid this game becoming just for veterans).
The rest i'll decide on later.
I understand you'll probably want to respond to some of the points i've raised and continue the discussion but please don't. If i see any responses to what i've said that i think I need to comment on i probably will and then wind up even more pissed off. I need a break from this thread and everything jont related for a good while. Unless the game or myself are truly dead the chance of me not returning in some capacity is near 0 so if you feel the need to ream my asshole over something i said do it after i've chilled out and gathered my thoughts.
Augustus i have little to object to in your latest response, most of what you've said is very reasonable. Also in retrospect i directed a good amount of vitriol at you and while you'd have been justified to respond in kind you didn't. I've probably misjudged you in many ways and a lot of my anger is coming from other places, that's not fair and i apologise for it. I do stand by that you have a tendency to be massively autistic about some things but i do the same in different ways so glass houses and all that. I'll address what i have issues with otherwise i largely agree.
I don't like dishonesty so I wish you'd just said you don't want to rather than you can't. You did admit it when called out though so points for accountability. Respect for time is a big deal for me as well so understandable. However you have to pick between either spending the time making sure the gameplay is in line with old versions or stop making that claim and dismissing players that say your version is off target. That's more qwerty's thing though so i'll address it properly in his section.
Definitely not true but you're realising that so little to comment on. Manageable for you doesn't mean manageable for others. Also need to make the distinction between manageable and enjoyable, there are things i could do to achieve success on even harsher conditions than i already play under but the methods needed to do so are tedious and unenjoyable to me so i simply refuse to play that way.
How did you ever come to that conclusion? Never said anything about ignoring rules, i have no idea where that assertion came from, even with these tests she still had simple rules to follow most of the time (may have forgotten to enable them for a few days at times to manageable levels of detriment however). No, i'm stating that in both prior versions i tested this is often possible with a fully naked slave but it isn't anymore so difficulty being in line with prior versions is way off. Also it's stupid and an active handicap to go that far but still works if you know what you're doing (mood in particular nosedives without careful management), just showing the polar opposite for comparison. Never said always either but as a general trend yeah absolutely, lessons rewards and punishments should be king. School and tutors are fine too but i see them as a plan b if player lessons aren't an option for whatever reason, often the case early on or with low energy. As far as equipment goes the "sane default" imo would be clothes of any variety so she isn't miserable being naked all the time, usually a collar as well and maybe shoes, specifics don't matter that much though sundress is the usual default since this is primarily for mood management, all other slots empty until wanted/needed on reaction to problems that arise (i'd like to point out that the sundress and slippers are available as gift rewards so leaving her fully naked until she's obedient enough to deserve clothes as a reward is designed to be a viable route). Also yes to all drugs and spells being optional, did many playthroughs where i never used either with the sole exception of auspex. Going beyond that should be viable, probably optimal, but optional. You already have a grade given when the game is beaten so players who want to optimise and get there faster have something to shoot for. If that's not enough there's always self imposed challenge conduct, haven't seen anyone mention that except me. Anyway, having several entire equipment sets to swap between each stacking bonuses for one thing plus assuming regular drug and spell use being the new "sane default" is blowing way past the point of being comparable and i think that should be obvious.
I'd hope so too but is it really though? You clearly like having more things to optimise and micromanage as well as stricter margins for both in order to get by. There can be many factors pulling in conflicting directions and qwerty's comment reveals that suspicion at least to be correct. The implication was you turned up the heat too much too quick and had to walk it back and make concessions in order to keep your players. I am convinced at this point the motive behind it was internal conflict rather than malice at least.
Already have the code so probably pointless unless there's a difference between 1.7.5 and 1.7.5.1 other than the latter being russian and you have an english version of it. If there's a chance you have the image pack please check and preserve it somewhere. We've lost too many versions of the game already, let's keep this one as decently preserved as possible while we can at least. The russian 1.7.5.1 version on the wiki mostly or entirely uses the same images from what i remember but they don't work properly just copied over. Probably have to be renamed.
The problem is not that you didn't remember what i requested over a year ago, it's that raising the issue politely and making short to the point cases for it back then got nowhere in all this time even with other people wanting the same. It only changed after a lot of time investment on testing and text wall posts by myself and others. And as stated earlier i think that level of effort expected from players just to have raised issues listened to is unreasonable. If you want your time respected then respect mine too, that's fair isn't it?
That's not the way it was presented to me;
And that's what i've been checking and commenting on. A smaller set of viable playstyles and a more complex series of events for what's left is inarguably harder and less balanced. There's a huge gap between 2.whatever and 1.7.5 and an even bigger one between it and 1.2.1. To me both legacy versions are incredibly easy but this isn't just about me, even in 1.2.1 new players regularly found the learning cliff insurmountable and it gets taller with every change of dev hands. The thing i personally like about them isn't the easiness, although it's partially a result of it, it's the lower amount of tedium.
Also hard disagree that it doesn't matter if the time taken or actions required are different, it absolutely does. With anything turn based that's about all that matters in terms of difficulty.
Qwerty your post is cleanly split between things i agree with 100% and vehemently disagree with. Same rules, if i don't address it agreement is implied. This is too long already and will be longer still otherwise.
The bulk of your response is hinging on the assumption that i'm just mad my changes weren't implemented fast enough, which sure is one of the issues, a year is a long time to wait and the points i'd raised were never even addressed. However they'd become background issues at this point to just how much time and effort needs to be put into communicating them. They've been implemented already but i haven't downloaded the latest version much less played it, after both prior messages i'd entirely left the site for several days and stopped playing any version of the game so clearly not a priority or major source of frustration on its own. If this was really the core issue that wouldn't be the case. More than anything i'm mad about my time not being respected and being baited back here with some contentious remark that i feel i have to address over and over again. I regret commenting here in the first place and get more angry every time i feel compelled to respond again, i want to be done with this already. Which leads to the next point.
I will never do this. What's here is the closest you'll get and i'm determined to make this a once off. I mentioned earlier that i hate arguing and that won't change. Sure it's a more fair style of debate compared to some cherry picked alternatives but it's a debate nonetheless so i'll be angry at the end regardless of result. Even if i win this game i lose in more important ways, never worth it to me. If i can't condense my message to "this is the problem, this is why, this is what i want done about it, bye" then i simply won't express my opinions. No i am not implying you must incorporate everything i say but i do expect you to take it seriously and not drag me into a blog post battle again. If you want the silent majority to stay silent you need to honestly evaluate your reason for it.
I agree i'm going to have trouble persuading most people of anything with this approach but oh well, i know how my brain is wired and don't have much of a choice. Charisma is a dump stat anyway.
A lot of my frustration probably stems from this which goes back to when the game was first released (over a decade ago??). In fairness to current devs that isn't your fault and i was a retarded asshole for not realising what i'm mad about before hitting send. That much was irrational of me and uncalled for, i'm sorry for that.
This game is cursed, there's a clear established pattern of development going down a bad path, player feedback not being listened to, the game being abandoned and picked up again by someone else with a different vision - repeat forever. I care about the future and preservation of the game so if i'm seeing the same pattern emerge again then naturally i'm going to try and course correct and get frustrated when my efforts seemingly fail. I'm probably entirely unqualified for the task though with the sole exception that it pisses me off so much. The "just go along with whatever state it's in until it dies again who cares lmao" crowd will never understand.
There are many negative things you could reasonably accuse me of being that i won't contest but disingenuous isn't one of them. It'll be a 2.2.2 johnny extreme difficulty no savescumming tier challenge to find a single statement of mine that isn't genuine unfiltered brutal honesty, it's the only communication mode i've got. I think this is projection and if anyone's being disingenuous it's you, here's a few examples;
Reductive - the game is worse for taking away information the player used to have while simultaneously making it more important than ever to know it.
Pedantry - it was correct about the vast majority of things. Yeah sure, tiamat's page may have said she wants a singer but she actually wants a painter but be realistic here, this is a minor issue almost none of the playerbase will ever encounter. Fenris is the only player character that starts in the outcasts quarter and for the long period of the game's history where he didn't exist there were none. Most players don't change house affiliation from what they start in or at least didn't until the game was changed here so moving districts is needed to maintain stats and mood. Before that it was about preferred location for local utilities, a background element of low concern, or just roleplay. If there was ever anything important majorly wrong on the wiki for past versions i never found it.
It was in order to know a lot of things, yes. And as i already said earlier knowing those things is more important than ever so its absence is a bigger blow. I really don't think you can argue otherwise.
And something i admitted was always an issue from the start and have reiterated many times, here's a quote from me;
This isn't athens, we aren't philosophers and most people have no interest in joining the debate club. Expecting lengthy exhausting argument chains like that will absolutely chase most people away from ever raising concerns, the only question is whether that's intentional. I will assume not at this stage.
This statement i agree with somewhat, an effort is being made and it's sometimes productive. I can think of many previous JONT devs alone where that wasn't the case so sure, much better by comparison.
Yeah we all do which is why this approach is a problem. I think you're implying i don't have any other goals or interests than to demand changes for your version which is a blatant misrepresentation of myself and also very easily proven false, here's my mountain of evidence why;
Years of time where i played your versions on and off, had issues and yet never commented at all. When i finally did comment it was brief and then i left again for a year. When i returned to raise issues again i started to regret it near immediately, have stopped mentioning any other issues i have and left the entire site several times without checking for responses to do other things i care about more. When the changes i apparently care so much about were implemented i still didn't touch the game and my only interaction with anything jont related now is occasionally returning here begrudgingly out of obligation to correct misrepresentations which continue to pop up. All i want at this stage is to be done here so i can have my time and mental energy back and i've made that crystal clear many times.
So no, i call bullshit. You're arguing in bad faith and there's no way you genuinely think that's my goal. Speaking of bad faith arguments, that's exactly what the vast majority of debate techniques and regular debaters are which is a major reason why i refuse to participate in them. They're just an evolution of chimp shit-flinging to own the other guy hidden behind a transparent veil of civility. I respect the former more because while it's still disgusting and pointless it's at least honest.
Goalpost shifting - This all started because i believed you were insinuating anyone who thinks the new normal is too hard should just play on easy. That was denied and the claim was made that you're making an effort to keep normal in line with 1.7.5 and 1.2.1. I went back to check if this is true and reported it not only isn't true for either version but can't be because difficulty between those two is in no way comparable. Now you admit you aren't even checking and won't, and that you don't think anyone else should check because it's not important. Also that isn't the goal anymore and actually yes, anyone who doesn't like the new normal should just play on easy XD. This is so insulting and disingenuous holy shit.
First off I can beat this version on normal, i've done it twice with 2 of the hardest characters in the game and my own challenge conduct on top of that. I've stated this multiple times too, here's one of many quotes addressing it.
My gameplay gripes personally are more to do with tedium, grind and unclear mechanical changes than difficulty itself, easy obedience wouldn't solve those problems or be more fun so i can't interpret that as anything other than an insult. Changelog indicates most of the issues i mentioned are probably resolved already, which again i do genuinely appreciate, but i'm still burnt out from all of this so not going to check anytime soon.
Secondly i'm looking at this from a new player's perspective. I'm as far removed from new as you're ever going to get so whether i can cope with it or not doesn't matter much. We need new players to keep this going and they need to be catered to more than any other demographic in my opinion. I'll remind you it was exceptionally common for new players to bounce off 1.2.1 (the absolute easiest the game has ever been) with how much you need to frontload learning just to be halfway competent and even then get blindsided by unforeseen problems. Contracts that version thinks will take 3 decades take me 3 days when i'm barely trying (no i'm not saying we need to go back to this but keep it in mind if you want to avoid this game becoming just for veterans).
Starting to believe it, think this is probably heading in a positive direction again. I'm going to need the issues i raised here resolved before i'll be willing to take an active role again though.
Some of that i believe and for the cases where i buy it;
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I understand you'll probably want to respond to some of the points i've raised and continue the discussion but please don't. If i see any responses to what i've said that i think I need to comment on i probably will and then wind up even more pissed off. I need a break from this thread and everything jont related for a good while. Unless the game or myself are truly dead the chance of me not returning in some capacity is near 0 so if you feel the need to ream my asshole over something i said do it after i've chilled out and gathered my thoughts.
- Apr 16, 2024
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Aside from high-tier combat, domination increases when obtaining compliance from a slave whose willpower is at least as high as the slaver's dominance. So rises faster early, slower later, assuming periods where interactions with slaves with high nature or engaging in difficult combat are not occurring daily.Does domination increases? It says 360/999 all the time. (Bump) Edit: So I loaded a few saves before and I am confused, sometimes it increases, sometimes its not. I cannot cross reference anything even. And getting a new start with A+ domination getting Isabella telling her to strip easily gets 1 point. Its ether display calculation bug so it doesn't compute changes and just stuck at the initial calc, or I dont understand how domination raises at all. Please clarify, thx.
Thanks. I found the pregnancy loophole. I've made some changes on the dev branch. It won't abort existing pregnancy so you'll still have to resolve that at the technosphere but it shouldn't be possible to get into that condition in future games. I also made some adjustments for calories/endurance and doubled the endurance cost for pig feed to compensate somewhat for the lower cost.
bumped dev version to 2.2.7.0 (still fully backwards compatible) -> https://f95zone.to/threads/jack-o-n...tsman-community-development.390/post-13549085
Thanks for clarifying what you see as the "safe default" path. More questions on that:
Do we expect the same approach to work for any slave irrespective of attributes/traits?
Do we allow use of explain/threaten/put in place to increase obedience?
Do we allow use of encourage/alcohol/spa to raise mood?
Do we put on a collar and brand from day 1?
Do we move into an apartment from day 1?
Do we force her to wear what she refuses?
Do we change sleep rule or diet?
Do we obtain tools from the Steel Rose and use them to enforce rules?
Do we respond to despair by backing off on rule enforcement?
Do we follow tutorial advice not to exceed 2 rewards / 2 punishments daily?
Do we send the slave to arena battles?
Do we rape the slave if she refuses sex?
Unfortunately not.
Development was mostly paused for the past year. What's being worked on now is a mix of what qwerty put on the roadmap and what's come up in play testing and recent discussions. What was posted a year ago is unlikely to be top of mind, so pinging qwerty with a polite reminder/request to add a note to the roadmap (even if under "future" category) would be the most effective way to ensure that your idea stays on our radar.
No one is expected to spend hours/days of time testing the game to prove a point. But, if something does require hours/days of time to observe then it will probably take a long time for us to act on it, since we don't have that much free time.
Recent example, your spending a day raising a fiend to leviathan to test the raven crown isn't something you were forced to do, and just asking on the forum would've been a more efficient way to get that answer. I try to answer all questions if someone else doesn't get to them first.
If we increase time to train a slave non-optimally but also increase starting sparks, as we did, is the game actually harder? We've made it "more realistic" in the sense that obedience/skill/attribute progression is either slower or requires more efficiency to match the previous rate of progression. But we've also made other adjustments to balance for those changes.
I think agreeing what "safe default" gameplay looks like will help us align on balance.
Would you consider the game balanced if whatever we decide qualifies as a minimally-viable play style leads to successful outcomes with most slaves?
In my view, exceptions requiring a different approach due to traits or high attributes are balanced provided starting resources on difficulties labeled "normal" or "simple" are sufficient to cover at least one failure for players who can't figure out how to adapt. I don't think we need to extend this "enough resources to cover one mistake" allowance to normal starts labeled with higher difficulty.
Moody.Why is my assistant occasionally cooks C- meals even then ingredients are available for A+?
fine. I found the reason why my Johny's dominance increased so quickly. He fighted almost everyday.
By the way, will this factor decrease like others?
Are you sure that the loss of calorie is only because of pregnancy? In later case, several days after day 1103, her everyday calorie increase decreased to 0 again, but the test result do not show she is pregnant. Is she not pregnant? Or this is just because pregnancy test has some delay and it needs time to show pregnancy?
Moreover I found the endurance of my cow stabled at healthy instead of weakened. Is this intended?
Due to my own taste I never feed pig before, so I am not sure what you said. This is the first time I use it, to increase slave's weight quickly. I just want to say more attention should be paid to data calculation and related balance settings. These cost and efficiency between cow food and pig food shocked me.
Here I have another question. How to create B+ food? Is there any reliable way to make B+ food? I only know how to make C+ and A+. By the way, I seldom cook meat so I know little about them.
Dominance will not decrease.
Yes, cow endurance stabilizes at healthy with a farmhand. The farmhand exercises the cow to maintain this, which consumes some calories. Unless you feed her a fattening diet or she is losing weight, she will have zero extra calories on some days. With a very good metabolism, on those days she will lose a bit of endurance and weight which will cause her to be hungrier the following day.
I don't use pigs usually so they haven't received as much attention as other parts of the game. Last I checked they were unprofitable, so I increased their weight gain in exchange for endurance loss. Pig food is described as fattening but very unhealthy.
Why aim for B+ if you can make better? A+ and S+ give an energy bonus now. If the cook has only B+ skill then that limits the meal quality. Alternatively, if you leave cooking to end of day rules, the mood of the slave/assistant will limit the meal quality.
Just out of curiosity, 1 ingredient makes D-,2 ingredients make C+, 4 ingredients makes A+, but 3 ingredients do not make B+.
I do not know how this happened.
There are a collection of recipes for each level. The number of ingredients varies per recipe. Average cost increases from one level to the next.
For details look in #food_base.qsrc