Lolicon Kami

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Nov 3, 2019
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What VNs have you played that have similar writing quality to LiL? I've always felt like it was leaps and bounds ahead of anything I've played as far as dialogue goes and how human the characters feel. I had thought part of that might be that some writing quality just gets lost when you translate things to english. If there are games out there with writing on par with LiL, I'd love to play them.
1) Originial Grisaia series (Caution: Lots of horror/LSD-infused nightmare material. Makes LiL happy scenes look tame in comparision)
2) . :) (Kinda dark, but way less so that LiL. Made in English by English-speaking devs, so you can enjoy the original game :))
 
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alex2011

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Feb 28, 2017
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Nah, this is probably the best time for it.

The game has found its voice, Selebus has settled into a flow for the pacing. While there will still be some quality improvements, the rate of improvement will slow down now that the big stuff has been settled, and it feels like we're coming to the end of Chapter 2, which means it'll also be a good time to pause the current story.

Waiting to the end presents a number of problems:
1) Interest in the revised beginning will drop dramatically once everyone knows how it ends.
2) If the creator hates that part of the game, it will just keep gnawing at him
3) Relevant details may be added in the revision that set up events in chapter 3, and stalling the revamp project might force a redraft of already outlined content.
4) The beginning in its current state sets false expectations for the level of sexual content in the game. The sooner that's fixed, the sooner the game does the proper job of setting expectations for new players.
I'm not so worried about interest in the revised beginning dropping considering we're looking at a game that will require replaying.

Sure, it will gnaw at him until he gets it done, but so will the next time this happens because, as it is now, the game will continue to improve until the very end and older content will once again need to be revised to meet the standard of new content. The game has NOT plateaued in quality, which is what I'm suggesting waiting for, but I just don't see a plateau happening any time before the end. In general, that's a good thing, but not so much with this situation because that lack of quality plateau will cause this to just happen again in the future.

That third point is a valid concern, but this same redraft is likely to happen in reverse as outlined in the previous section. He will continually end up having to redo content that went untouched in previous revisions as quality increases further and he may even need to touch the revised sections because of this as well.

The fourth is even more valid and is my main reason for agreeing this rework does eventually need to happen. This may be a contributing factor in why people are expecting more sex content than they are getting. Yes, the majority of that expectation here is due to a certain false notion of the nature of the site, but some of the events do sort of rush things. Yes, this includes the same Ayane scene that gives us a little peek at the real Ayane instead of the facade we came to know at first once we learn it actually is a facade. The same can be said of a bunch of the early scenes that do rush things, they all set up the characters quite nicely and, with the correct amount of progress being made after that, can become the first signs in the game that a character is a certain way like Ayane's facade or Ami's trauma.

You say that nearing the end of chapter 2 will slow down quality increase, but that's not necessarily true seeing as chapter 2 is nowhere near the end of the game.


You think? I've felt that Selebus kinda already hit a wall and the game's gonna stay at the current-level (uber-high) quality.

I mean, the images/animations have been consistently beautiful for a koikatsu game. His plot and writing rivals some of the best Japanese visual novels I've read. Sure, some updates are better than others, but Selebus would naturally have his ups and downs considering he's human.

So I feel that once Selebus reworks his game once, it won't need further reworks. Again, this is just my opinion and I don't mean to criticize you :)
Yes, I fully believe that this game has not stopped improving not to mention the old adage about what practice does. As they say "practice makes perfect," which, while not entirely true at face value, that does apply here. With every scene he writes, he will improve bit by bit and, given how much longer the game has for development yet, he's going to get in A LOT of practice. With this practice will come further quality increases that, I fear, will just end Selebus right back in the beginning of a cycle that only the end of development can break because only the end of development will be a point where he doesn't keep improving during this game's development. Yes, he will again improve bit by bit in his next game, assuming he goes into a new one, but at that point it is of no consequence to this project.

What VNs have you played that have similar writing quality to LiL? I've always felt like it was leaps and bounds ahead of anything I've played as far as dialogue goes and how human the characters feel. I had thought part of that might be that some writing quality just gets lost when you translate things to english. If there are games out there with writing on par with LiL, I'd love to play them.
1) Originial Grisaia series (Caution: Lots of horror/LSD-infused nightmare material. Makes LiL happy scenes look tame in comparision)
2) . :) (Kinda dark, but way less so that LiL. Made in English by English-speaking devs, so you can enjoy the original game :))
Some of the Japanese ones, especially ones that have specifically been mentioned as inspirations for this game, are extremely high quality. The one mentioned by VNDB as an example of the Denpa genre is also extremely good, though I forgot the name since it has been a while since I've had to go back to that page.

EDIT: "Shizuku" by Leaf is the one in the VNDB example I mentioned, that one is extremely good.

Writing is a skill, and skills naturally improve with practice, so in a very technical sense, there will be improvement over time.

But that improvement is typically incremental. The big quality jumps happen when you figure out a character's voice, the narrative tone, the proper way to pace your action, etc, and for the most part all that has been done, so we shouldn't see any major quality leaps in the future.
That's exactly what I'm getting at, he's been improving pretty consistently even if slowly, but that all adds up over time and we still have multiple years to go. That's a long time to incrementally improve.

I'm just concerned this will end up a long term cycle that will lead to burn out in a way Selebus wasn't expecting and didn't prepare for like he did with the events per update.
 

barglenarglezous

Engaged Member
Sep 5, 2020
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That's exactly what I'm getting at, he's been improving pretty consistently even if slowly, but that all adds up over time and we still have multiple years to go. That's a long time to incrementally improve.
Not really. The plateau actually happens pretty early. Most creatives do their best work in the first part of their careers, even though they keep writing/creating for decades afterwards, you don't really see their late work being substantially better -- and in all honesty, it's usually worse.

Then you have project impatience. When you get towards the end of your current project, your brain starts working on whatever you're going to do after, and the closer you get to the end of THIS project, the more interested you get in the next one. The prospect of doing a clean up at that point is no longer compelling. That's the old project, the new one is more important, interesting, and exciting.

There's also the economic factor. This is the developer's source of income. When the game ends, his income is going to fall off.If a new project enters development, or has already started development, that won't happen. If he then announces going back to the beginning to revise it, it most definitely will.

Also, telling a creative that YOUR ideas for his project are better than his is an actively shitty thing to do.
 

alex2011

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Feb 28, 2017
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Not really. The plateau actually happens pretty early. Most creatives do their best work in the first part of their careers, even though they keep writing/creating for decades afterwards, you don't really see their late work being substantially better -- and in all honesty, it's usually worse.

Then you have project impatience. When you get towards the end of your current project, your brain starts working on whatever you're going to do after, and the closer you get to the end of THIS project, the more interested you get in the next one. The prospect of doing a clean up at that point is no longer compelling. That's the old project, the new one is more important, interesting, and exciting.

There's also the economic factor. This is the developer's source of income. When the game ends, his income is going to fall off.If a new project enters development, or has already started development, that won't happen. If he then announces going back to the beginning to revise it, it most definitely will.

Also, telling a creative that YOUR ideas for his project are better than his is an actively shitty thing to do.
It can happen pretty early in most cases and usually does even if only temporarily, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. As gradual as the increase has been, it hasn't stopped even temporarily.

We don't have project impatience to worry about any time soon, that's near the end and we aren't even close to the end of this project. He doesn't have a new main project to draw interest, either. He has, admittedly, a side project, but those never get the same focus as a main project like this nor should they, that's why they fall into the side project category.

With this game, I don't see it really mattering, as far as his income stream, when he announces the rework. People are either going to stick with it or they aren't. We've already seen multiple cases of both new and existing players here drop off due to content, not the amount or the quality, but the type of content he's writing, and we aren't even up to the full extent of the game's Denpa element yet. I, for one, plan to stick with it no matter what he throws at us, but there are things that can cause me to drop the game outside of the content, thankfully none of which he has done.

I have no ideas for this project nor was I telling him to do anything, I tend to give developers the wheel so to speak even if it is a development I happen to be on. It was simply a suggestion in when to do it, not how to do it, and he can take it or leave it.

Either way, unless he does something crappy like, I don't know, implementing DRM and focusing on that for months on end instead of actual content or manipulating reviews like a certain other game developer who got caught not too long ago by the admins of F95, not dropping actual developer names for the above examples, I don't see myself going anywhere. All I did was express concerns, nothing more and nothing less.
 
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moodle

Member
Nov 26, 2016
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There's a lot of early installment weirdness with characterization and setting stuff, so I'm looking forward to the rework, if for no other reason than that it will mean that if stuff is still weird after the rework, it's a clue and not a mistake.

If he gets on a "gotta keep revamping things" treadmill, then I'll worry, but for now I'm not concerned: it's not a general pass over the entire game, it's an update to the part of the game before he was full-time on it and doing full-time levels of quality. He's got a defined scope. I think this is fine.
I've recently started playing, I wish we would have a better indication of what is going to be the consequence of our choice. Like the game mentions that taking Ayane's virginity will change the story... (I assume in not a good way, since she's basically a yandere?) or when the game asks you if you want to fuck Sana's mom.
Keep multiple saves, that's the best advice I can give.
 

Papa Is My Name

New Member
Aug 19, 2018
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What VNs have you played that have similar writing quality to LiL? I've always felt like it was leaps and bounds ahead of anything I've played as far as dialogue goes and how human the characters feel. I had thought part of that might be that some writing quality just gets lost when you translate things to english. If there are games out there with writing on par with LiL, I'd love to play them.

wonderful everyday is best thing to play if you want something similar,
Selebus himself said that he took inspiration from that VN

https://f95zone.to/threads/subarash...zai-wonderful-everyday-final-front-wing.4690/
 

Lolicon Kami

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2019
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who's got bets on how long it's gonna take the new release to come in here?
hopefully not very long.
already requested an update.
You're in luck.

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Happy belated halloween, everyone :) Remember: Digital piracy is not a victimless crime. Let's support our beloved dev; next public update will likely be around November 28.
 

Essecks

Newbie
Sep 1, 2018
37
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New update is amazing, even if it didn't advance the overarching story much. I'm interested in seeing whether the people who have been hating on Kirin feel differently about her after this update, or if they come away feeling vindicated, because I feel like it could honestly go either way depending on what you choose to focus on. Personally, she's quickly becoming one of my favorites and I would not have predicted that a few updates ago.
 
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alex2011

Conversation Conqueror
Feb 28, 2017
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There's a lot of early installment weirdness with characterization and setting stuff, so I'm looking forward to the rework, if for no other reason than that it will mean that if stuff is still weird after the rework, it's a clue and not a mistake.

If he gets on a "gotta keep revamping things" treadmill, then I'll worry, but for now I'm not concerned: it's not a general pass over the entire game, it's an update to the part of the game before he was full-time on it and doing full-time levels of quality. He's got a defined scope. I think this is fine.

Keep multiple saves, that's the best advice I can give.
That "treadmill" is exactly what I'm worried about. I've seen that before and it isn't pretty when it happens and usually ends up in the developer getting burnt out because they are just going in circles of 'improve the game, make more content at higher quality partly achieved by the practice that resulted from the rework, do another rework because the new content is now on a higher level than both untouched and previously reworked content, rinse and repeat either until the developer gives up and keeps the quality of the latest rework at that point, leaving a potentially severe quality discrepancy, or the developer gets frustrated that they seemingly aren't getting anywhere with more reworks due to the constant reworks causing an effect of further increases in quality that make it seem like the developer is going nowhere' and gives up entirely.

New update is amazing, even if it didn't advance the overarching story much. I'm interested in seeing whether the people who have been hating on Kirin feel differently about her after this update, or if they come away feeling vindicated, because I feel like it could honestly go either way depending on what you choose to focus on. Personally, she's quickly becoming one of my favorites and I would not have predicted that a few updates ago.
I mean, I'm not hating on her and actually kind of liked her from the start, at least more than Yumi, but she's been a real bitch at times, the first beach event for example, and new events where she isn't won't change that she already was in the past.
 
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