Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.41.0] [Selebus]

[barglenarglezous]

That.... is a really interesting point. I was assuming the puzzles were awful out of Sel's general disdain for casual players, but it's entirely likely that was more of an enabling factor than a driving one. And I certainly like it better, since I don't really want to think ill of Sel-- if the guy flames out before finishing this incredible story I'm going to be a sad camper.

The first "puzzle" isn't an obviously a puzzle, but it generates a lot of questions.

The event titled "Reset"

It's just a matter of figuring out where to go, what to do, and doing it enough times, and most of us that solve it without assistance managed to brute force it without realizing it. The second puzzle (There is Nothing) is more complex, depending on a couple of called-out data points.

Since then, every single reset has had this, and ONLY the reset events. It doesn't happen in the other happy scenes. And Sensei spells out in this update that if he doesn't make it to the rooftop, he loses his memories. So now we have a failure state (we technically already had it, but now we have a concrete chain of events that causes it)

And we know that failure state has happened before, repeatedly, and this is the first version of Sensei to make it past the third reset intact. This implies progressive difficulty.

I think there is a degree of trolling, because Sensei has always trolled his critics in-game. But these puzzles aren't in the game because of the critics, they actually fit naturally within the flow of the narrative structure, and have been in the game longer than we've been complaining about them.

 

[EllisL4D2]

Could've Sensei saved the German Reich during 1945?

 

[alex2011]

It wouldn't really delay anything, as the court proceedings are independent of the DMCA process.

This appears to be a fraudulent filing, which opens the filer up to civil liability.

There is exactly one scenario where this filing isn't fraudulent, and that would be if this group were operating under contract to Illusion to manage their DMCA rights in certain markets. If that's the case, then none of the struck games would be getting restored. Since those games are getting restored, that's clearly not the case.

I mean, would Selebus not have to be there in person and therefore not working on the game? I was going more for that angle than for the actual proceedings being the issue.

That.... is a really interesting point. I was assuming the puzzles were awful out of Sel's general disdain for casual players, but it's entirely likely that was more of an enabling factor than a driving one. And I certainly like it better, since I don't really want to think ill of Sel-- if the guy flames out before finishing this incredible story I'm going to be a sad camper.


Yeah, been much discussion about that. I don't think we really have enough information (or more likely, have not figured out enough from the information we have) to make many assumptions about the relationships between Hope, Wire, Callous/Calm/Concerned, the various Users, etc. All I'm really sure of is that User2 is less of a dick than most of the other powers.

(Also, what a great narrative tool that is.... by having different "gods" wax and wane, you can enable scenes where Maya can speak almost freely and also enable scenes where everything makes Sensei's world go to shit.... this game is so well thought out.)

Once we learn a bit more about the nature of the sim/matrix/whatever we are in, a lot more of this will make sense I think.

I mean, yeah, he does like to watch the players squirm, he isn't exactly devoid of troll, but there seems to be in universe reasoning for the puzzles that seems to be getting clearer as we get further along. Something the entity in question won't want happening, I'm sure.

The gods part is still just unproven theory at this point and I'm not sure how long it will take to get a real answer on that. It could be someone else pulling the strings of the puzzles as well, what a plot twist it would be if one of the girls turned out to be in on the whole situation and against Sensei.

Ch1 and Ch2 are fine as if to be separated as its finished.
Ch3 could be started with new client that uses previous save file. IMO Sel can even just do a blank slate save file since the points requirement aren't even that high to begin with. The best that I'm hoping is QOL addition of quest marker since the way to trigger quest in late game is really hazy with the addition of phone calling/invite and even locked behind weekend.

Story wise, yes, but all of them are connected by the more sandbox like elements of the game and breaking that up does risk breaking the entire thing as there is no good way of splitting that up. Like I said, Harem Hotel has the same issue. As for the quest marker idea, probably not going to happen officially, but I believe there is a mod for it already. Check the first post in the thread as there might be a link to it.

The first "puzzle" isn't an obviously a puzzle, but it generates a lot of questions.

The event titled "Reset"

It's just a matter of figuring out where to go, what to do, and doing it enough times, and most of us that solve it without assistance managed to brute force it without realizing it. The second puzzle (There is Nothing) is more complex, depending on a couple of called-out data points.

Since then, every single reset has had this, and ONLY the reset events. It doesn't happen in the other happy scenes. And Sensei spells out in this update that if he doesn't make it to the rooftop, he loses his memories. So now we have a failure state (we technically already had it, but now we have a concrete chain of events that causes it)

And we know that failure state has happened before, repeatedly, and this is the first version of Sensei to make it past the third reset intact. This implies progressive difficulty.

I think there is a degree of trolling, because Sensei has always trolled his critics in-game. But these puzzles aren't in the game because of the critics, they actually fit naturally within the flow of the narrative structure, and have been in the game longer than we've been complaining about them.

Well put, this is exactly what makes me believe the puzzles are not just Selebus being Selebus, but are also canon.

 

[crustlord12]

Thanks. As i said, my memory of it is vague, i recall someone saying it cuts off her route but then they might've just been speculating, i would certainly think it'd kill it off or at least hamstring it. Still, i wonder how crustlord12 can call it a 100% save if one of Karin's events is red. Unless it's not red and an explanation as to why exists.

sorry, by 100% I meant all the events are done, that's why I specified Karin's one event was crossed out (I've updated my post to reflect that). I kinda wanna go change that but damn I couldn't lie to her. She's too pure.

 

[Ghoul26]

Gotta do them in a set order, and this assumes you had done ALL the content from the previous updates (including Good Boy, the Happy scene)
1) Call Tsubasa in the morning. Both of her events are chained together.
2) Call Kaori at night on a weekend.

Kaori's event starts a chain of events that plays out through the end of the update.

How do I activate the last 2 happy scenes?

 

[barglenarglezous]

I mean, would Selebus not have to be there in person and therefore not working on the game? I was going more for that angle than for the actual proceedings being the issue.

Not necessarily, especially if he's working with itch.io. Bear in mind -- itch.io is FAR more inconvenienced in this scenario than any one individual creator is. They have to take all these games down, deal with angered creators, look into the complaint, and put the games back up. It's a big time-sink for them. They'd be the primary actor in the suit.

...and here's where all my hours watching copyright law YouTube kicks in.

itch.io sues. This group either responds or they don't, MAYBE they offer to settle.

If they don't, judge issues summary judgement and assigns damages, which is what happened in Automattic.
If they do, their response will include their legal justification for the takedown request. If it's moral outrage, as you theorize, itch.io's attourney requests summary judgement on the grounds of lack of basis, and probably wins.
If they DO have legal basis (the one unlikely scenario I outlined above), itch.io drops the suit and the games go back off the platform. But seriously -- I doubt an "ethics group" would have that basis. Fakku might per their distribution agreement with Illusion, but if this were Fakku's doing, we'd already know.

If this is moral outrage DMCA harassment, settling is their best way out. They know they cannot win in court if it comes to that, and they're counting on the fact that lawsuits for DMCA harassment are very rare.

#NotALawyerButIWatchThemOnYouTube

 

[barglenarglezous]

How do I activate the last 2 happy scenes?

Good Boy triggers automatically if you're sleeping with Sara after one of her final scenes. If it's in red and scratched out, you can't get it, but that won't impede your progress.

The last happy scene is potentially available within that final sequence of scenes that chain together to end the update.

 

[alex2011]

Not necessarily, especially if he's working with itch.io. Bear in mind -- itch.io is FAR more inconvenienced in this scenario than any one individual creator is. They have to take all these games down, deal with angered creators, look into the complaint, and put the games back up. It's a big time-sink for them. They'd be the primary actor in the suit.

...and here's where all my hours watching copyright law YouTube kicks in.

itch.io sues. This group either responds or they don't, MAYBE they offer to settle.

If they don't, judge issues summary judgement and assigns damages, which is what happened in Automattic.
If they do, their response will include their legal justification for the takedown request. If it's moral outrage, as you theorize, itch.io's attourney requests summary judgement on the grounds of lack of basis, and probably wins.
If they DO have legal basis (the one unlikely scenario I outlined above), itch.io drops the suit and the games go back off the platform. But seriously -- I doubt an "ethics group" would have that basis. Fakku might per their distribution agreement with Illusion, but if this were Fakku's doing, we'd already know.

If this is moral outrage DMCA harassment, settling is their best way out. They know they cannot win in court if it comes to that, and they're counting on the fact that lawsuits for DMCA harassment are very rare.

#NotALawyerButIWatchThemOnYouTube

True, I hadn't considered that. I was thinking more along the lines of individual developers handling it because it is their projects, Selebus's Lessons in Love in this case, and had not considered the impact on Itch.io itself or their role in the suit should this actually proceed further than denial of the original claim by Itch.io, which is what Selebus is working to get done now.

 

[forbiddentwo]

The first "puzzle" isn't an obviously a puzzle, but it generates a lot of questions.

WAS it a puzzle? How were you intended to solve it?

 

[alex2011]

WAS it a puzzle? How were you intended to solve it?

The most infamous of the early puzzles may be what most people consider the first puzzle, but there was one event, called "Reset" where you were quite literally alone and had to travel around town to specific locations and do specific things in some of them a certain number of times, which is what I consider the first.

The most infamous of the early puzzles, and possibly the most infamous in the entire game, being "There Is Nothing," or at least the most infamous until now, not sure if the new one beats it in terms of infamy yet. "There Is Nothing" had you inputting answers that were given to you during previous events, especially 'happy' scenes, which seemed to be most of the issue as a lot of people can't handle those, and in one case the audio of "There Is Nothing" itself (this event is also one of the most contentious because of complaints over the one answer strictly being audio only while audio volume is only controlled on an all or nothing master slider, thus posing an issue for those that have less than average hearing).

 

[thefetussundae]

I assume Selebus initiated the copyright strike against Subeles

 

[forbiddentwo]

The most infamous of the early puzzles may be what most people consider the first puzzle, but there was one event, called "Reset" where you were quite literally alone and had to travel around town to specific locations and do specific things in some of them a certain number of times, which is what I consider the first.

No, I mean, how were you supposed to glean that you actually needed to go to X and do Y, rather than just wandering until progress unlocked? Was there some previous scene that indicated it?

The most infamous of the early puzzles, and possibly the most infamous in the entire game, being "There Is Nothing," or at least the most infamous until now, not sure if the new one beats it in terms of infamy yet. "There Is Nothing" had you inputting answers that were given to you during previous events, especially 'happy' scenes, which seemed to be most of the issue as a lot of people can't handle those, and in one case the audio of "There Is Nothing" itself (this event is also one of the most contentious because of complaints over the one answer strictly being audio only while audio volume is only controlled on an all or nothing master slider, thus posing an issue for those that have less than average hearing).

Really? It wasn't controlled by the voice slider? Hmm.

I assume Selebus initiated the copyright strike against Subeles

 

[moodle]

No, I mean, how were you supposed to glean that you actually needed to go to X and do Y, rather than just wandering until progress unlocked? Was there some previous scene that indicated it?

It's not very hard. Some weird shit is happening. You had previously been warned that some weird shit might soon happen by Maya, who hangs out at the shrine normally. The shrine is the only location where anything actually changes: every other location you visit, nothing happens (well, you can get a happy event if you visit the soccer field and have been hanging out with Miku, but it's a one-time thing), but at the shrine you pray and your affection with god rises. When you hit 5 affection with god, a new option unlocks to end the event.

It's super easy if you think about it at all, and even if you don't it's literally possible to solve by clicking randomly, so most people don't really count it as a puzzle.

 

[alex2011]

No, I mean, how were you supposed to glean that you actually needed to go to X and do Y, rather than just wandering until progress unlocked? Was there some previous scene that indicated it?



Really? It wasn't controlled by the voice slider? Hmm.



View attachment 1719243

It's not very hard. Some weird shit is happening. You had previously been warned that some weird shit might soon happen by Maya, who hangs out at the shrine normally. The shrine is the only location where anything actually changes: every other location you visit, nothing happens (well, you can get a happy event if you visit the soccer field and have been hanging out with Miku, but it's a one-time thing), but at the shrine you pray and your affection with god rises. When you hit 5 affection with god, a new option unlocks to end the event.

It's super easy if you think about it at all, and even if you don't it's literally possible to solve by clicking randomly, so most people don't really count it as a puzzle.

Ah, for me it was trial and error because that was before I started writing things down. There's not much saying where to go in terms of other players, though, so basically trial and error is all there is as far as in game options. There is one text cue when you hit the right place to do the thing, though. As Moodle said, it honestly wasn't that hard in that case, it was the later puzzles that started ramping up the difficulty.

Pretty sure it was controlled on the main volume slider like everything else.

I loosely count it as a puzzle because you do still have to figure out where to go to actually progress.

 

[nashk]

No, I mean, how were you supposed to glean that you actually needed to go to X and do Y, rather than just wandering until progress unlocked? Was there some previous scene that indicated it?



Really? It wasn't controlled by the voice slider? Hmm.

You don't really. You just wander around until you either A: Brute force the event, or B: get confused why nothing is happening and look online. I ended up brute forcing it.

And no, it was not controlled by the voice slider, it was on the main. I found that out the hard way. Was very frustrating.

I don't mind the puzzles, but in terms of game design I think Sel should put some puzzles earlier in the game to put you in the mindset of writing down and remembering information so its not such a dead stop. Maybe in a girls event you need to remember something specific to unlock a bonus scene or something, or maybe even unlock a Happy Event. I don't know, but even though I enjoyed the happy events you are only told one time to specifically remember one fact, and since I had never needed to do that earlier in the game I didn't take it as seriously.

 

[johlem]

From my point of view they are not even puzzles, I like to complete puzzles in the games I do in general, but in LIS it is not puzzles based on some logic, but more a succession of password to type according to small detail that has been said hours of reading before.
it's not ludic and not fun at all to look for what to read to find a minor info that we have not retained.

 

[chickenmaid]

What I rather have is an escape room, all clues confined in one scenerio. What Sel want is for the player to ace a pop quiz to progress. "Are you paying attention students?"-vibe. It's pretentious. Last LiL update: "Make sure you remember all 1,000,000 words for the final exam". Yeah, I'll cheat because it's the most boring, nonsense gameplay ever.

 

[forbiddentwo]

What I rather have is an escape room, all clues confined in one scenerio. What Sel want is for the player to ace a pop quiz to progress. "Are you paying attention students?"-vibe. It's pretentious. Last LiL update: "Make sure you remember all 1,000,000 words for the final exam". Yeah, I'll cheat because it's the most boring, nonsense gameplay ever.

I prefer to give him some credit and assume that these are all foreshadowing in some form or another.

Plus it's pretty convenient to believe that.


...I wish there was a Senseiface emote.

 

[chickenmaid]

I prefer to give him some credit and assume that these are all foreshadowing in some form or another.

Plus it's pretty convenient to believe that.


...I wish there was a Senseiface emote.

Hmm... Yes, indeed. There must be something more to this, some bigger meaning behind 23 rice bowls...

It's still some god awful gameplay.

 

[forbiddentwo]

Hmm... Yes, indeed. There must be something more to this, some bigger meaning behind 23 rice bowls...

It's still some god awful gameplay.

Well the ink one SORT OF made sense!