Ren'Py Completed Long Live the Princess [v1.0.1] [Belle]

[Belle]

I am with you. If you just take a purely statistical analysis of the game you first have to fail,then fail,then if you have done 1000+tasks correctly,in the correct order you can win. Short of an epic walkthrough(of the correct version,of the correct version...and no it is not a mistake to say that twice)then you can "win".

After my third playthrough I am with you. Screw this game.

Literally, nothing you just said is correct. Well, except your feelings, I suppose. Nothing I can do about those. Until the endgame, there are only two tasks you can truly fail at (Evelyn leaving and Primrose getting jailed), and both are not only basically hammering you over the head with their importance but also giving you ample opportunity to avoid the negative outcome (in Evelyn's case, repeated warnings. In Primrose's case, a generous time limit and characters telling you exactly what to do at every stage of the quest).

Apart from those two cases, you can't fail at anything until you start the endgame. You can chip away at your tasks in whatever order you wish, except in those cases where different tasks are prerequisites for each other, such as training an ability to achieve something else. Since not even the overall time limit is in effect right now, there is no threat of failure whatsoever. If you start the endgame without being ready for it, that's on you.

Having said that, I do understand where this impression of yours is coming from (except the anger. Which is inexcusable). What you're running into here is a significant problem with game design that is the direct reason why so few AAA games offer any genuine choice these days. What do I mean by that?

Well, let's ignore the cost and time involved in making multiple paths through a game and look at the experience from the player's point of view. If player choice is deeply integrated into the game and doesn't signpost itself in an obvious way, most players won't even realize that they have made choices and what the consequences of those choices were. Not unless they play the game again and deliberately do things differently. When things don't play out the way they wanted, they think that's because the game was designed to do the unwanted thing. They might never even become aware that there was a different way they could have done things to avoid whatever they stumbled into.

Through your playthrough(s) of LLtP, you've seen only a small subset of what is in the game and haven't been able to see behind the scenes to understand what is actually going on. Despite my efforts to make actions and consequences feel natural, they won't sink in with everyone for all kinds of reasons. But through your small lens and limited perspective, you have still drawn far-reaching conclusions. And those conclusions happen to be wrong.

Whose fault is that? *shrug* Beats me. I knew that I would get reactions like yours before I even started making this game because I was well aware of the game design conundrum I described in the above paragraphs. This is not a new problem in game design. It's just one that most big development studios have given up trying to solve, precisely because of reactions like yours.

But "screw this game" is probably going too far. If anything, go with "screw my experience with this game." That's far more descriptive for what you're dealing with. And it's not a problem that can be solved without railroading you through a game that straight up tells you "hey, you're about to make a choice between A and B, and that choice will change things in this and that way." That's not a type of game design I enjoy as a developer, so I'd rather have to deal with occasional reactions like yours than sacrifice my artistic vision, for what it's worth.

I can't even follow the walk through, I suspect because of new game+, maybe... Many events don't correspond/don't happen at the same time, and I guess the WT is on the older side too now

The game is good, but the amount of interactions that needs to be done at borderline specific times, is simply impossible to remember or guess

With the exception of Primrose's 7-day quest, all events in this game repeat infinitely until they succeed. Nothing (except Primrose) can be missed if a window slips you by. It will return. The game will tell you if a window is narrow enough that you need to know (such as which days Primrose's father drinks). If it doesn't tell you, that means the window is so frequently open that it doesn't matter. If you can't do it now, do it at your next opportunity. You won't miss your chance. It's literally impossible to do so.

The reason you think otherwise is that you tried to use the walkthrough. That thing has caused so much confusion around here that it makes me want to rip my hair out.

 

[indiehindi]

Pity me, I followed the walkthrough in OP, first time playing and I'm guessing bad ending guaranteed right now. If the walkthrough is wrong why is it still linked in OP?
As I did not follow ''To Do List'' properly, im gonna get bad ending (Primrose is in jail already), but if I were to play to the end right now, and start a new game afterwards, am I gonna keep my abilities?

The second question, if I were to follow ''To Do list'' is it guaranteed that I get the good ending?
And how do you actually know you're on the right track? <-(this question is tied to the last)

My third question is spesifically for Belle;
It seems the diffuculty of the game is based on a number of different parameters
1. Time Management
2. Characters
3. Time & Character combination
4. Locations
5. Time & Character & Location combinations
6. Decisions (The Right Answer/Interactions)
7. Time & Characters & Locations & Decisions combinations
8. Abilities
9. Time & Characters & Locations & Decisions & Abilities

It seems you're only gonna unlock scenes while keeping on the right track if you can one shot 9 out of 9 in my list.
Plz dont get me wrong here, I'm totally ok with the difficulty level of the game, but these are a lot of combinations and possibilities. The ''To Do List'' & ''Belle'' do not help that much as they lack info and hints.
Ex: After being guided by the game in early days, the player is left alone, beginning in the morning (especially further in the game) the player faced with around (3 x Amount of Characters x Amount of Locations x Amount of Possible Decisions / Interactions x Level of Abilities) = N******** number of total possibilities.


The only way for player to get the correct scenes in right time at right locations with corrects characters + the good ending is to ''know'' the right route out of these combinations. Which is impossible. So the games premise is that you have to play the game entirely couple of times so that you can get things right, right?

Please forgive my language Belle but this is total BS. Which could have been fixed & corrected with just an efficient quest-line that actually gives info on what to do next. Its not necessary to tell the player how to do, by what, via what, or with whom but its kind of a ''must'' situation to give player info on ''important'' quests and characters.

It seems there are handful of people that finished the game with a good ending + unlocking all the scenes. Or rather they claim to do so. Maybe, just maybe I'm the one that big fat idiot here. But still I dont think the player should be left alone with such combinations. Do you realize people are only capable of completing the game by coming here, or maybe discord (i did not check) what I mean is relying on the experiences of others to be able to do things in this game. Which you mislead by keeping the link of that totally irrelevant walkthrough around.

Anyways, I do want to enjoy this game but again maybe I'm thebig fat idiot in the room as I've said, I'm only hoping if I were to keep failing it with each and every re-start, evantually I should be able to figure it out by myself without relying on the aswers I could collect here, which by now becoming quasi - occulté knowledge that gives the aftertaste of sprinkled breadcrumbs for pigeons.

Regardless, I'm truely grateful that I can experience this ride freely.

 

[ThtsMyScrtCapImAlwysHorny]

i don't know... i don't see any different, Patron= Aldred is Evelyn's only remaining family, she is his nice SS= the same
that mean the MC is neither related to Evelyn nor Aldred... so she can't be his sister

There may have been an errant line accidentally left in about Aldred being Evelyn's only family; if there is, you're either farther in or more observant than me, because I don't remember it. But Aldred definitely calls the protagonist his nephew and the latter calls Aldred his uncle, so that's clearly not the intent of the SS version.

 

[Deleted member 2755092]

With the exception of Primrose's 7-day quest, all events in this game repeat infinitely until they succeed. Nothing (except Primrose) can be missed if a window slips you by. It will return. The game will tell you if a window is narrow enough that you need to know (such as which days Primrose's father drinks). If it doesn't tell you, that means the window is so frequently open that it doesn't matter. If you can't do it now, do it at your next opportunity. You won't miss your chance. It's literally impossible to do so.

The reason you think otherwise is that you tried to use the walkthrough. That thing has caused so much confusion around here that it makes me want to rip my hair out.

Yeah, the WT has caused more confusion for me than anything else. I resorted to it, because I somehow got stuck with the sister. I couldn't figure out what I was missing to progress with her

Primrose, well, I always forget something somewhere, and always end up fucking that one up too

 

[Belle]

The only way for player to get the correct scenes in right time at right locations with corrects characters + the good ending is to ''know'' the right route out of these combinations. Which is impossible. So the games premise is that you have to play the game entirely couple of times so that you can get things right, right?

I barely understand what most of your post is trying to ask, so I'll address the above quote directly instead.

The answer is no. Everything you need to do is introduced in some way to you, as a player. I very carefully and deliberately sprinkle the required information so that you will be pointed in the right direction when asked to do something challenging. This is one of the main purposes of Belle, your sidekick, but other characters (including the MC) also contribute to this.

I'm a deliberate storyteller and a deliberate puzzle designer. Everything is done with a purpose and a structure in mind. If you find yourself guessing, you've either missed something or attempted a challenge before you were ready to deal with it. There are only a rare handful of cases where I deliberately hold back information because I expect you to stumble upon it through the natural course of the game. A good example of this is coming across the river girl. Until I added the todo-list, nothing in the game hinted at you needing to go there. However, that scene has its own dedicated location on the map, and nothing else happens there except that scene. This is a case of using something akin to negative space to draw your attention to something I want you to see. I attempt to point you towards something by not pointing you towards it, in a way. There is an icon on the map that keeps taunting you. Why is it there?

There is one puzzle in the game that I myself feel isn't implemented well enough. I'm talking about the Fairy Queen's vision quest. That one is going to get an overhaul later.

Having said all that, the final update I will make for LLtP before it hits 1.00 is the balance pass. When I start working on it, I will draw upon the community's experiences with the game and ask for specific situations which felt counterintuitive or bad to play, and then I will evaluate every single one of those cases to see if they can be improved in some way.

Instead of speaking generally, like you currently are, how about giving me specific examples of things you felt didn't work for you? Give me something to work with, and I promise you that I will at least give it a look. And if I disagree with your assessment, I will at least explain why.

 

[indiehindi]

I barely understand what most of your post is trying to ask, so I'll address the above quote directly instead.

The answer is no. Everything you need to do is introduced in some way to you, as a player. I very carefully and deliberately sprinkle the required information so that you will be pointed in the right direction when asked to do something challenging. This is one of the main purposes of Belle, your sidekick, but other characters (including the MC) also contribute to this.

I'm a deliberate storyteller and a deliberate puzzle designer. Everything is done with a purpose and a structure in mind. If you find yourself guessing, you've either missed something or attempted a challenge before you were ready to deal with it. There are only a rare handful of cases where I deliberately hold back information because I expect you to stumble upon it through the natural course of the game. A good example of this is coming across the river girl. Until I added the todo-list, nothing in the game hinted at you needing to go there. However, that scene has its own dedicated location on the map, and nothing else happens there except that scene. This is a case of using something akin to negative space to draw your attention to something I want you to see. I attempt to point you towards something by not pointing you towards it, in a way. There is an icon on the map that keeps taunting you. Why is it there?

There is one puzzle in the game that I myself feel isn't implemented well enough. I'm talking about the Fairy Queen's vision quest. That one is going to get an overhaul later.

Having said all that, the final update I will make for LLtP before it hits 1.00 is the balance pass. When I start working on it, I will draw upon the community's experiences with the game and ask for specific situations which felt counterintuitive or bad to play, and then I will evaluate every single one of those cases to see if they can be improved in some way.

Instead of speaking generally, like you currently are, how about giving me specific examples of things you felt didn't work for you? Give me something to work with, and I promise you that I will at least give it a look. And if I disagree with your assessment, I will at least explain why.

Its specifically here;

It seems the diffuculty of the game is based on a number of different parameters
1. Time Management
2. Characters
3. Time & Character combination
4. Locations
5. Time & Character & Location combinations
6. Decisions (The Right Answer/Interactions)
7. Time & Characters & Locations & Decisions combinations
8. Abilities
9. Time & Characters & Locations & Decisions & Abilities

And here;

It seems you're only gonna unlock scenes while keeping on the right track if you can one shot 9 out of 9 in my list.
Plz dont get me wrong here, I'm totally ok with the difficulty level of the game, but these are a lot of combinations and possibilities. The ''To Do List'' & ''Belle'' do not help that much as they lack info and hints.
Ex: After being guided by the game in early days, the player is left alone, beginning in the morning (especially further in the game) the player faced with around (3 x Amount of Characters x Amount of Locations x Amount of Possible Decisions / Interactions x Level of Abilities) = N******** number of total possibilities.

All these things I've said boils down to, ''Player needs more info''. Plz again do not get me wrong. I do find it rather pleasing to figure out things by myself and it seems I'm not the big fat idiot here, as I actually played the game the way you've designed it to be played. But... How could I possibly have to knowledge of the impotance of Primrose? Its not that the game doesnt have hints or info, rather its not enough. And I have to come here and check the whole thread to be able to find out.
Its not can I or not save Primrose, or when. Its rather what should I do next?

The possibilities listed above are too much. I can just do whatever I wish starting every morning (which is what i did) and miss every important thing. Well, you say its all repeatable, but I also did not know that... Up untill coming here checking the whole thread.


Plz isnt it obvious this game needs a proper system that give the player clear info whenever player wants to.

Conclusion;
I'm totally ok with doing whatever I want, and I enjoy being able to do whatever I want in a game. But not when I'm missing out. People hate to waste time. People hate to miss out, so that they have to repeat. No one wnats to miss out the enjoyment of doing things correctly (as it is clear definition of ''accomlishment'' which makes human brain produce a very important thing Dopamine) while doing & enjoying things freely as they wish to. Thats the one major decision of your game, do I do things correctly and acquire the joy of accomplishment or do I enjoy the moment to the point missing out important things so I fail?
Besides me here telling you, no one on this world wants to make that decision, trust me.
That, is the problem.

 

[Jorjor69]

Literally, nothing you just said is correct. Well, except your feelings, I suppose. Nothing I can do about those. Until the endgame, there are only two tasks you can truly fail at (Evelyn leaving and Primrose getting jailed), and both are not only basically hammering you over the head with their importance but also giving you ample opportunity to avoid the negative outcome (in Evelyn's case, repeated warnings. In Primrose's case, a generous time limit and characters telling you exactly what to do at every stage of the quest).

Apart from those two cases, you can't fail at anything until you start the endgame. You can chip away at your tasks in whatever order you wish, except in those cases where different tasks are prerequisites for each other, such as training an ability to achieve something else. Since not even the overall time limit is in effect right now, there is no threat of failure whatsoever. If you start the endgame without being ready for it, that's on you.

Having said that, I do understand where this impression of yours is coming from (except the anger. Which is inexcusable). What you're running into here is a significant problem with game design that is the direct reason why so few AAA games offer any genuine choice these days. What do I mean by that?

Well, let's ignore the cost and time involved in making multiple paths through a game and look at the experience from the player's point of view. If player choice is deeply integrated into the game and doesn't signpost itself in an obvious way, most players won't even realize that they have made choices and what the consequences of those choices were. Not unless they play the game again and deliberately do things differently. When things don't play out the way they wanted, they think that's because the game was designed to do the unwanted thing. They might never even become aware that there was a different way they could have done things to avoid whatever they stumbled into.

Through your playthrough(s) of LLtP, you've seen only a small subset of what is in the game and haven't been able to see behind the scenes to understand what is actually going on. Despite my efforts to make actions and consequences feel natural, they won't sink in with everyone for all kinds of reasons. But through your small lens and limited perspective, you have still drawn far-reaching conclusions. And those conclusions happen to be wrong.

Whose fault is that? *shrug* Beats me. I knew that I would get reactions like yours before I even started making this game because I was well aware of the game design conundrum I described in the above paragraphs. This is not a new problem in game design. It's just one that most big development studios have given up trying to solve, precisely because of reactions like yours.

But "screw this game" is probably going too far. If anything, go with "screw my experience with this game." That's far more descriptive for what you're dealing with. And it's not a problem that can be solved without railroading you through a game that straight up tells you "hey, you're about to make a choice between A and B, and that choice will change things in this and that way." That's not a type of game design I enjoy as a developer, so I'd rather have to deal with occasional reactions like yours than sacrifice my artistic vision, for what it's worth.



With the exception of Primrose's 7-day quest, all events in this game repeat infinitely until they succeed. Nothing (except Primrose) can be missed if a window slips you by. It will return. The game will tell you if a window is narrow enough that you need to know (such as which days Primrose's father drinks). If it doesn't tell you, that means the window is so frequently open that it doesn't matter. If you can't do it now, do it at your next opportunity. You won't miss your chance. It's literally impossible to do so.

The reason you think otherwise is that you tried to use the walkthrough. That thing has caused so much confusion around here that it makes me want to rip my hair out.

I am one with you on this Belle! Ppl these days in general are very impatient. I (and prolly most of us) are in a game to enjoy (a good intelligently-told story and a good interactive fap material while on it ), whether lose or win (altho winning does so much to the dopamine release hehe). Just like in life, winning is really trying hard and trying repeatedly and learning from it. That is what I love about this game, it keeps challenging whatever live brain cells are left in my skull lol.

Keep up with the good work, you are certainly on course to a classic in adult VN gaming. Let those impatient blokes find other games to fap to, there's a gazillion of cheap, lazy, and uninspiring games out there lol. As long as you don't keep the puzzles impossibly hard, then I will always be a fan of ur work!

 

[MyUserName1234]

Both of these questions have been answered dozens of times in this thread. Please put in at least a minimal amount of effort in searching for an answer first.

832 pages... it really isn't that easy.

 

[Ekcho666]

I am with you. If you just take a purely statistical analysis of the game you first have to fail,then fail,then if you have done 1000+tasks correctly,in the correct order you can win. Short of an epic walkthrough(of the correct version,of the correct version...and no it is not a mistake to say that twice)then you can "win".

After my third playthrough I am with you. Screw this game.

Your kidding right? This game is easy as hell if you use your brain a little

 

[Ekcho666]

Its specifically here;



And here;



All these things I've said boils down to, ''Player needs more info''. Plz again do not get me wrong. I do find it rather pleasing to figure out things by myself and it seems I'm not the big fat idiot here, as I actually played the game the way you've designed it to be played. But... How could I possibly have to knowledge of the impotance of Primrose? Its not that the game doesnt have hints or info, rather its not enough. And I have to come here and check the whole thread to be able to find out.
Its not can I or not save Primrose, or when. Its rather what should I do next?

The possibilities listed above are too much. I can just do whatever I wish starting every morning (which is what i did) and miss every important thing. Well, you say its all repeatable, but I also did not know that... Up untill coming here checking the whole thread.


Plz isnt it obvious this game needs a proper system that give the player clear info whenever player wants to.

Conclusion;
I'm totally ok with doing whatever I want, and I enjoy being able to do whatever I want in a game. But not when I'm missing out. People hate to waste time. People hate to miss out, so that they have to repeat. No one wnats to miss out the enjoyment of doing things correctly (as it is clear definition of ''accomlishment'' which makes human brain produce a very important thing Dopamine) while doing & enjoying things freely as they wish to. Thats the one major decision of your game, do I do things correctly and acquire the joy of accomplishment or do I enjoy the moment to the point missing out important things so I fail?
Besides me here telling you, no one on this world wants to make that decision, trust me.
That, is the problem.

Nope the game is clear from start to finish if anyone is stuck that's on them

 

[cxx]

832 pages... it really isn't that easy.

yes it is, just type ntr on search box and voila.

 

[MyUserName1234]

yes it is, just type ntr on search box and voila.

LOL, 36 pages of references to NTR.

 

[dalzomo]

Belle you know you really don't have to, and probably shouldn't, engage with those who are just complaining or seem disingenuous in their questions or criticism. not to suck your dick or anything but it was clear to me from one playthrough (which I didn't even finish) that you've put a lot of work into this and know what you're doing afaik wrt storytelling. I decided then to sub on sstar and wait until you were forrealz finished with the whole thing. just do your thing and let your fans here defend you. a dev should only chime in when someone sounds sincerely befuddled and not just taking out their butthurt on the thread

 

[cxx]

LOL, 36 pages of references to NTR.

open posts to new tab or window to see whole post.

 

[dalzomo]

LOL, 36 pages of references to NTR.

search for Evelyn NTR and you'll see the answer in the first page of results. perversity 6 isn't so easy since you can't sort search by date but it was only implemented this update according to the changelog, which I'm sure you checked FIRST mirite? I'm pretty sure I saw the answer upthread only a page or few ago

 

[Belle]

Belle you know you really don't have to, and probably shouldn't, engage with those who are just complaining or seem disingenuous in their questions or criticism. not to suck your dick or anything but it was clear to me from one playthrough (which I didn't even finish) that you've put a lot of work into this and know what you're doing afaik wrt storytelling. I decided then to sub on sstar and wait until you were forrealz finished with the whole thing. just do your thing and let your fans here defend you. a dev should only chime in when someone sounds sincerely befuddled and not just taking out their butthurt on the thread

I appreciate the sentiment, but I believe my answers show that I understand their concerns and won't necessarily downplay them. Of course, that last guy failed to present any specific scenarios he had issues with, so at that point his feedback has zero value to me, but the overall point that was aired by those posters is genuine, and I tried to respond to it as such.

But beyond all the pretty words, the gist of it is that this game definitely isn't for everyone and it never will be. I'm satisfied making niche games, but sometimes there's value in explaining to people why it is niche and why that isn't necessarily a problem.

 

[indiehindi]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I believe my answers show that I understand their concerns and won't necessarily downplay them. Of course, that last guy failed to present any specific scenarios he had issues with, so at that point his feedback has zero value to me, but the overall point that was aired by those posters is genuine, and I tried to respond to it as such.

But beyond all the pretty words, the gist of it is that this game definitely isn't for everyone and it never will be. I'm satisfied making niche games, but sometimes there's value in explaining to people why it is niche and why that isn't necessarily a problem.

With my first comment here I was pretty clear, still you've asked me to be precise and I just did that. What else there for me to make it clear-er?

Here again, I would never ever guessed that failing Primrose would eventually lead me to bad ending. As I would follow walktrough and read the comments here so that I could know. And now that I know, I'm feeling wasting time.
I made it clear, dont care what you consider your game to be niché or not, I do enjoy it, I do appreciate it. I did not anyhow here or there disregard your efford and time spent on this game. I'm quite sure I made it clear what the issue is. Now you say such things I've stated have no value for you... Talk about downplay huh?

The problem is endless possibilies and combinations, and the player would NOT know missing out or not so the player would be forced to play it over and over again.

The solution is also simple. Let us have more info by making ''To Do List'' titles clickable and giving info or insight on what could be done next.

Is it specific, precise & clear now?

 

[indiehindi]

Nope the game is clear from start to finish if anyone is stuck that's on them

Could you tell me please where did the game tell you that if you were to fail Primrose you would have a bad ending?

 

[Ekcho666]

Could you tell me please where did the game tell you that if you were to fail Primrose you would have a bad ending?

Seriously the hints are scattered throughout the game

 

[Ekcho666]

With my first comment here I was pretty clear, still you've asked me to be precise and I just did that. What else there for me to make it clear-er?

Here again, I would never ever guessed that failing Primrose would eventually lead me to bad ending. As I would follow walktrough and read the comments here so that I could know. And now that I know, I'm feeling wasting time.
I made it clear, dont care what you consider your game to be niché or not, I do enjoy it, I do appreciate it. I did not anyhow here or there disregard your efford and time spent on this game. I'm quite sure I made it clear what the issue is. Now you say such things I've stated have no value for you... Talk about downplay huh?

The problem is endless possibilies and combinations, and the player would NOT know missing out or not so the player would be forced to play it over and over again.

The solution is also simple. Let us have more info by making ''To Do List'' titles clickable and giving info or insight on what could be done next.

Is it specific, precise & clear now?

This doesn't hand-holding.