VN Ren'Py Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[osanaiko]

The commentators say that White can't take the knight on e4 with the bishop, because the one on g5 would be left unprotected. But I'm not seeing how the bishop on g5 is protected at all on the current board.

It's probably poor phrasing by the commentators - it's not that the bishop to e4 move is changing the protection of the g5 piece, rather, it has already become unprotected the previous move of Jen's knight to e4. So by *not* moving g5 to safety it's dead from either e7 or e4. The proposed move to take the e4 knight is "leaving it unprotected".

 

[osanaiko]

There also seems to be an exploit:
When presented with a choice that has a skill check:
- buy the needed skills
- pass the check, and click the desired option
- scroll up once, you're now back on the choice, but the bought skill is refunded
- scroll down, pass the check again without having bought the skill

Yes, it's a fairly trivial way to get around paying for skills. But it doesn't really matter - the dev has already got a built in "double points" and "unlimited points" cheat modes anyway for players who don't care about the need for strategy. And even if you tried to put in some protections, Renpy is trivially hackable anyway.


EDIT: The thing you found for Deb sounds like a genuine issue. paging MrSilverLust !

 

[Mharzel]

Any new stuff for Olivia or is still just the swimming scene?

 

[Quetzzz]

It's probably poor phrasing by the commentators - it's not that the bishop to e4 move is changing the protection of the g5 piece, rather, it has already become unprotected the previous move of Jen's knight to e4. So by *not* moving g5 to safety it's dead from either e7 or e4. The proposed move to take the e4 knight is "leaving it unprotected".

Right, that makes a lot of sense, actually. Thanks!

Yes, it's a fairly trivial way to get around paying for skills. But it doesn't really matter - the dev has already got a built in "double points" and "unlimited points" cheat modes anyway for players who don't care about the need for strategy. And even if you tried to put in some protections, Renpy is trivially hackable anyway.

Yeah, I agree. And from the limited understanding I have of ren'py, it can't roll back results of python functions... Which I'm assuming is the root cause here. Just wanted to give the heads-up regardless, even if I don't mind the exploit existing. (And I certainly prefer the exploit existing over disabling the rollback functionality after a choice, for instance.)

 

[Quetzzz]

Any new stuff for Olivia or is still just the swimming scene?

Her gallery has two entries. I haven't unlocked the 2nd one, so I'm not sure if it's the pizza slicing scene or solo.

 

[osanaiko]

pizza slicing scene

ROFL

 

[MrSilverLust]

Ran into a small bug on the Steam version:
During chapter 5, when Deb asks to get fucked. If the MC agrees to it for the first time ever, Deb will still say "you liked fucking me the other time, didn't you?"

Thanks, fixed it.

There also seems to be an exploit:
When presented with a choice that has a skill check:
- buy the needed skills
- pass the check, and click the desired option
- scroll up once, you're now back on the choice, but the bought skill is refunded
- scroll down, pass the check again without having bought the skill

I never noticed that before! I had to go poke around in the renpy code itself, but I think I hacked a solution without messing with rollback or rollforward elsewhere, or breaking anything else.

Basically, the way I did it was to clear the roll forward data anytime you reach a menu option that requires a skill (even if you have it). If there is no data to roll forward, you can't do it.

This has a slight inconvenient: if you roll back pass any choice that requires a skill (even if you didn't have to buy it at that time), you can't roll forward anymore again with the mouse wheel - you'll need to click with the mouse botton to go forward again as if you were playing normally.

Does anyone think this is bad? Roll back is still always available, and roll forward is too, untill you hit one menu choice that requires a skill.

The ideal solution would be to "save" the bought skills data in the rollforward data, but that doesn't seem very doable, according to pytom (renpy's creator): I found

You must be registered to see the links

where he was talking about a similar problem.

I still want to test this a bit better, but this workaround should be prsent in the next patch/update, unless anyone convinces me that this is a bad idea.

The commentators say that White can't take the knight on e4 with the bishop, because the one on g5 would be left unprotected. But I'm not seeing how the bishop on g5 is protected at all on the current board.

Yeah, it's poorly phrased like what osanaiko said. The knight move created a discovered attack on the undefended bishop and, if white takes the knight, black can take the bishop in return.

Any new stuff for Olivia or is still just the swimming scene?

There's also the mentioned "pizza slicing scene" in chapter 6.

I also think it's weird my inner voice was flaming me about not falling in love, and using the people around me, while I haven't (ab)used their affections at all (as you can see in the lovemeter).

I think this is one of those cases where there are a lot of reasons why the MC could be not falling in love with anyone, and a lot of "relationship states" the mc can be on while he doesn't fall in love.

And it's different if he isn't falling in love while fucking everyone, or while fucking no-one or something in between. It's difficult for me, as a writer, to write different dialogues with the inner voice that correctly account for all possible combinations and reasons why that particular set of options was chosen. First, because there are many different options, and secondly because I don't know what goes on each player's head when they make the choices that brought them to that situation.

This ends up with me, as the writer, interpreting those possible "game states" in a different way than you, the player, which can create a weird dissonance between the story you're trying to create and the story that the game thinks you're trying to create. These situations should be avoidable as much as possible, but it isn't an easy task. I recently wrote a bit more about this topic in general here, if you're interested in more of my thoughts about it (and haven't read that post yet).

 

[MrSilverLust]

Talent tree is just cosmetic and not really useful imo

I think you're more-or-less right in everything you're saying. I just think you're underestimating how important that cosmetic function really is, probably because you're already so used to the current system on NiF, that you don't even notice the upsides anymore. Which, imo, are:


1) it prevents players from seeing any kink they don't like, as long as they don't buy a certain skill;

2) it creates a framework from what to expect (more-or-less) in a game from the very beginning: you know what to expect kink-wise and how to get it or avoid it;

3) it acts kinda like a in-game walkthrough where you know which choices will lead to a sex scene;

4) it makes you wonder with which character you'll use a given skill, and try to find hints in what each girl is saying, which is, I hope, fun;


Now, my first question to you is: what is the problem you want to fix in the current system?


You say:

it'd be the same if you just check number of X points and previous choices before a new choice.

For ex if a scene require the first talent (requires X points), you can simply check for X points. Then the second scene you can check for X+Y points and if the first scene happened (without the talent it didn't happen)

So, you suggest it would be enough to check if the player has x points and previous choices before a scene. But that would miss all 4 advantages of the original system.


To fix 1) and 3) you may say, just add an info box saying: "you need 50 sensitive points to go into a femdom scene" (or be even more detailed).

But notice that's part of the utility of the system, by using just points and choices, like you said, you wanted to take rid of that! Have you ever played games with a walkthrough opened in another window? Is that fun? Or is it better in NiF?


But okay, we can replace the current system with just points + choices + info boxes. You're still missing 2) and 4).

You may say that's what tags are for, but how good are really the tags in F95 (and they also only tag current content, not future)? And for people that found the game on Steam or Itch that don't have this type of tags? Are tags/kinks not important in the games you play? Don't you think there's some value in having the skill system showing up at the start of the game and saying "Hey, these are the kinks you can expect in this game, have fun!"?


You also say this is a problem with the current system:

Sometimes it's just missing 1 point to unlock a skill.

But doesn't using just points run into the same issue?

What's the difference between saying you need pleasing and bottom (and you may need to buy another one to get bottom that's unrelated), or saying you need 65 sensitive points? You could also miss the threshold for a choice by one point. Why would this be an improvement?


Also:

I'm not convinced by this system, irl you don't need "pleasing" skill to become a "bottom", you just need to have made the decision to please.

Is this just a semantics issue? If I've called them "Wants" instead of "Skills", as in, to pick a choice the MC needs to "want" to please and "want" be a bottom, instead of "having the skill" to please (which, I have to say, sounds stupid), would it be better?

I mean, I just called them "skills" because that's what people are used to buy with in-game-points. But it's just a name.



Funnily enough, I do think this system has some important problems that should be improved in future games I may make, but you don't seem to be referring to what I think the problem is. Unless I'm misinterpreting you. We might actually be more in agreement than what it seems haha

 

[Lukazz]

One of the Best games

 

[dolfe67]

I think you're more-or-less right in everything you're saying. I just think you're underestimating how important that cosmetic function really is, probably because you're already so used to the current system on NiF, that you don't even notice the upsides anymore. Which, imo, are:


1) it prevents players from seeing any kink they don't like, as long as they don't buy a certain skill;

2) it creates a framework from what to expect (more-or-less) in a game from the very beginning: you know what to expect kink-wise and how to get it or avoid it;

3) it acts kinda like a in-game walkthrough where you know which choices will lead to a sex scene;

4) it makes you wonder with which character you'll use a given skill, and try to find hints in what each girl is saying, which is, I hope, fun;


Now, my first question to you is: what is the problem you want to fix in the current system?


You say:






So, you suggest it would be enough to check if the player has x points and previous choices before a scene. But that would miss all 4 advantages of the original system.


To fix 1) and 3) you may say, just add an info box saying: "you need 50 sensitive points to go into a femdom scene" (or be even more detailed).

But notice that's part of the utility of the system, by using just points and choices, like you said, you wanted to take rid of that! Have you ever played games with a walkthrough opened in another window? Is that fun? Or is it better in NiF?


But okay, we can replace the current system with just points + choices + info boxes. You're still missing 2) and 4).

You may say that's what tags are for, but how good are really the tags in F95 (and they also only tag current content, not future)? And for people that found the game on Steam or Itch that don't have this type of tags? Are tags/kinks not important in the games you play? Don't you think there's some value in having the skill system showing up at the start of the game and saying "Hey, these are the kinks you can expect in this game, have fun!"?


You also say this is a problem with the current system:




But doesn't using just points run into the same issue?

What's the difference between saying you need pleasing and bottom (and you may need to buy another one to get bottom that's unrelated), or saying you need 65 sensitive points? You could also miss the threshold for a choice by one point. Why would this be an improvement?


Also:



Is this just a semantics issue? If I've called them "Wants" instead of "Skills", as in, to pick a choice the MC needs to "want" to please and "want" be a bottom, instead of "having the skill" to please (which, I have to say, sounds stupid), would it be better?

I mean, I just called them "skills" because that's what people are used to buy with in-game-points. But it's just a name.



Funnily enough, I do think this system has some important problems that should be improved in future games I may make, but you don't seem to be referring to what I think the problem is. Unless I'm misinterpreting you. We might actually be more in agreement than what it seems haha

Right, giving info of kinks present in the game might just be useful in itself.

Just discussing the system, there are pros and cons

For the 1 point difference, yes it's the same with this system or without but my point was that the MC's personality might change for just 1 missing point instead of his own actual decision. Not a fan of gating choices behind love points either (in other games), in which some player feel the need to have perfect score. They are novels more than games to me. Ultimately only decisions should matter. You can match very well with a girl but there can be a dealbreaker on a specific thing.

 

[Quetzzz]

Does anyone think this is bad? Roll back is still always available, and roll forward is too, untill you hit one menu choice that requires a skill.

I think this is fine, personally. If I compare it to games with minigames, rollback requires players to re-play the minigame. Having to click the option again is a very minor inconvenience. And, I suspect, roll forward isn't used that much anyway.

And it's different if he isn't falling in love while fucking everyone, or while fucking no-one or something in between. It's difficult for me, as a writer, to write different dialogues with the inner voice that correctly account for all possible combinations and reasons why that particular set of options was chosen. First, because there are many different options, and secondly because I don't know what goes on each player's head when they make the choices that brought them to that situation.

Yeah, that's fair. As a player, I do realize that every choice offered by the game, adds an extra layer of complexity for the writer/dev. From a roleplay perspective, the reverse is true as well. Sometimes we need to take a step back and look at the meta, the paths the writer make available, and what they need the player to do, to move the story forward.

One note I made, is how I -as the player- felt worse than the MC after the inner-demon monologue during the weed-trip. I was surprised he didn't try to throw himself off of the balcony right there.
And while, subjectively, I didn't like it. I know that, objectively, you needed to give the MC a catalyst to reconnect with his friends, to get a change of perspective. I also found it uncharacteristic that the player didn't get the choice to partake in weed, which reinforced my impression of "plot convenience". (And as a side-note, I think it would've worked better as an LSD/mushroom/psychedelic trip, but I don't know if there are legality issues with that.)

Now, all this is more of an observation than criticism. While the MC's sudden 180 did take me by surprise there, and shattered my immersion for a minute, I did realize it's a limitation of the genre. It's the same limitation that prevents me from telling Emma to STFU and to stop turning every-fucking-thing into a competition. This is my own preference, I don't like people (men or women) who are like this, I much prefer to be surrounded by people who build each other up, instead of one-upping. Regardless, the MC seems to like it, so I try to mute my own preference.
The alternative to all of this, is a railroad experience where the author just tells their story, and any player choice is purely cosmetic. I think, generally, you've struck this balance very well.

This ends up with me, as the writer, interpreting those possible "game states" in a different way than you, the player, which can create a weird dissonance between the story you're trying to create and the story that the game thinks you're trying to create. These situations should be avoidable as much as possible, but it isn't an easy task. I recently wrote a bit more about this topic in general here, if you're interested in more of my thoughts about it (and haven't read that post yet).

I hadn't read that post before, it was an interesting read. And you're right, it's hard, if not impossible, to account for how a player fills in the MC's motivations. The dissonance you mention is exactly what I felt with the weed-scene, but yeah, the story has to progress as well. For the RP I was doing, it would've fit better if the MC had a breakdown, and a real heart-to-heart with Olivia afterward, but that's neither here not there. In the subgenre of character driven AVN, this game still easily ranks in my top 3.
I know you advise against it, but I'll be playing through multiple times to explore different paths and consequences. The amount of achievements still left to get, make me think there's a lot of content I haven't yet seen. And, I'm actually curious if my perspective on events/characters will change with more intimacy involved.



Edit: I'd also like to make a request/suggestion. Is it possible to let players rename the "Page #" on the savegame screen (as an alternative to named saves)? With the game still being in development, and me doing several runs, I'd love for a better way to keep track of which saves are what. While I'm a completionist, I still like to stay true to the spirit of the game, and not just unlock every option to see everything in one playthrough. As far as achievements go, it seems at least 6 playthroughs are needed, probably 10 to see all the dom/sub variations.

 

[eijaxx]

Spoiler: IMO

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[Quetzzz]

This guy (MC) definitely needs psychiatric treatment. But, imo, it's too late.

Psychiatric treatment... No, I don't agree. I do think that there's a missed opportunity with Professor Cunningham. She could've been a way for the MC to get things off his chest, and move his character growth forward. On the other hand, like MrSilverLust said in a previous post, it's extremely hard to do this in a roleplay-friendly way. He'd have to write a therapy session that's vague enough to apply to anyone, while still being convincing enough to base the story progression on. The only way I can think of doing is, is having a huge tree of questions and answers, which would basically be a personality test. Then the resulting advice needs to be general enough, so there's no need to create 26 different scenes to apply to different roleplay styles.

As to your points with Lea, it's up to you to be consistent. If you want to switch between Manly and Sensitive scenes, then you have to reflect this in the way you talk to people. If your character and kinks don't match with someone else's that's a recipe for disaster anyway. If you want to have an easier time, enable the Relax Mode. It doubles the points you receive, which means you can divide your answers between the different branches and get plenty of points.

 

[lwahrleff]

lol I made a Steam account specifically to play this game after checking it out over here for ages, wrote a positive review and someone accused me of being the dev leaving a fake review

 

[Quetzzz]

lol I made a Steam account specifically to play this game after checking it out over here for ages, wrote a positive review and someone accused me of being the dev leaving a fake review

I saw that, that's hilarious. I thought the issue was the low playtime at the review, but there are reviews with much less playtime than yours.

 

[lwahrleff]

For sure… I should have mentioned I was acquainted with the game from way before it was launched on Steam tbf but I focused on letting people know how much I love it

 

[Quetzzz]

Thanks, fixed it.

Here's another one:

Chapter 5. I'm in a committed relationship with Lea, haven't cheated on her. During some alone time, MC gets the option to browse the web for dom or sub kinks. I bought Passive & Bottom, because I hadn't seen the femdom stuff yet. After closing the phone, I had to buy the Cheating kink to actually message BigBrattyBitch. I chose the other option, and continued with my day. After meeting Emma at the cafe, MC returns home and surfs the web again. This time the choice is between researching BBW, humiliating them (which is greyed out) or "just browse the web mindlessly".
When picking this 3rd option, BigBrattyBitch messages with "On writtit again?" (As mentioned before, I didn't talk to her because I didn't want to cheat.)

Edit:
Another small inconsistency.
Even after winning the volleyball game, MC will say to Deb (at the carnival) "it was so hot seeing you in a bikini crushing us when we played volleyball."

Edit:
I've also discovered a few typos:

• On the steam store page, at the bottom of "about this game": "... endings based on your choises" -> choices
• Chapter 2: kitty says "... who's terrible idea was this anyway?" -> whose
• Chapter 4: when on the walk with Lea: "I'd never make do anything that'd make you cry" -> -make
• Chapter 4: on the beach with Jen: "Let's just make some safe works in case ..." -> words
• Chapter 5: During Emma's hatefuck, she says "Ugh, you're just so fucking unbearable...", MC replies with "I'm unbelievable?" -> In context, he should say 'unbearable' as well.
• Chapter 6: Jen: "On the other hand, the prize money I'm been getting ..." -> "I've"
• Chapter 6: When talking to Bri and getting the choice about sharing your kinks. The help text on the left says "Dependent on previews actions" -> "Dependent on previous actions".

 

[MrSilverLust]

lol I made a Steam account specifically to play this game after checking it out over here for ages, wrote a positive review and someone accused me of being the dev leaving a fake review

Don't worry with that, you did nothing wrong. You need to understand where the other person is coming from: unfortunately, steam is full of shovelware, early-release titles that never see the full release or even pure scams. It wouldn't be the first fake review on the site, especially in games with zero or close to zero reviews, like was the case.

Even recently, someone that's clearly not the Dev, has put on Steam A.O.A Academy, a game that is abandoned for a year or two or whatever... and, even if most reviews are calling the scammer out, they still seem to have sold enough copies to make a a couple thousand dollars... it is what it is.

But it's not your case, some people defended you, and there are more reviews now showing the game is legit.

And your review is like the second most marked as being helpful, so it was clearly a good review for potential costumers checking if they would be interested in the game or not, which is what reviews are for

Here's another one:

Thank you, that seems like a major bug that went unnoticed until now somehow. I'll check and fix what went wrong there, plus the rest of the mistakes you've found. Thank you so much!

 

[Quetzzz]

Thank you, that seems like a major bug that went unnoticed until now somehow. I'll check and fix what went wrong there, plus the rest of the mistakes you've found. Thank you so much!

You're welcome!

Another one: During the talk with Jen during the vacation, about how to make their sub/sub thing work, she says "But which ones of you do you like? ... ".

Edit:
A bit after the above scene, at the bar, MC says to Jen: "What do you thing about us trying ...." -> think
After finding who shared the video, and Jen returns, they're on the bed talking about the sub/sub dynamic. MC says "Did you consider that you could have gone out and found some guy for one night stand ..." -> missing 'a' for one-night stand (and in principle the hyphen as well.)

Another edit:
Dominant playthrough with Jen, in the room in the morning during the vacation, humiliation variant: "oh god... you really now how to beg like a good slut." -> "know how"

This will probably be my last edit... This scene should give me the last achievement.

Nevermind, here's one more:
After Jen misbehaves, MC asks her to write cute lines on her body. During the sex scene, one line gets spoken by "Although Otto", instead of the MC: "i've never seen you so eager... You weren't kidding with ..."

 

[Outsider04]

Looks great! I'm going to buy it on Steam