Yes/No
The file itself is safe but you might get some popups when you go to download that are viruses, just use common sense lol if you download a 2mb file it's not what you want
The file itself is safe but you might get some popups when you go to download that are viruses, just use common sense lol if you download a 2mb file it's not what you want
MRN64
Member
- Apr 29, 2020
- 257
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The point of a translation is to take the meaning of what is being said in one language and output it in another. If the barrier to entry of understanding a translation is having intimate knowledge of another culture and portions of its language it is by definition a bad translation. A large portion of the people out there that whine about bad translations are mad because the english doesnt have a minimum amount of japanese words in it which is really fucking silly. No translation will ever be perfect as things will always be lost in translation and the simple fact that that phrase is so common to see just illustrates that fact.
The simple truth is that no matter how much someone might like honorifics or translation notes plastered on every other line to explain culture references they are a crutch that poor translators lean on and their overuse leads to a stilted awkward mess. A good translation is easy to read by as many people as possible and delivers the intent of the original writing. That is it. If you have to pass a quiz on japanese culture or read another entirely separate line of text expaining the first to understand a translation its a shit translation no matter how much people jerk off over its accurate use of honorifics. Its even worse when they insert them into dubs. Dubs already sound bad with their d tier actors they hire that we dont need a 40 year old chainsmoker baritone woman being all "Onii chan take me to gakkou so i can talk to Kitagawa sensei because i forgot my randoseru."
Translations used to be absolutely terrible. Shit like characters whipping out onigiri and having them called donuts or the entirety of robotech and cardcaptors where they just rewrote the show. The official blu rays of Yuru Yuri has fucking rustle my jimmy memes inserted in them for no fucking reason.
yea i have far more gripes with TLs like the original Tsukihime or FSN where the prose is just like really awkward and badly-written and whatnot, and you have to get used to the MTL-adjacent text, then something like this that at the very least tries to emulate the writing style of the original (for an "untranslatable" novel) and localises those references because i frankly dont care about japanese pop culture. or even Edited MTL like Arterial of Origins, which you could have told me was a straight TL and i would have been like 'aw yeah'
MRN64
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- Apr 29, 2020
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This is still one thing people gripe about that absolutely floors me a lot of the time. A good while ago a show called pani poni dash was made and it was just FILLED with old obscure japanese references to shit from like the 70s in it. All of the "good" translations went and researched the references and put giant fucking notes all over the screen that if you wanted to read you had to pause the video every 30 seconds. This was in the era of hard encoded subtitles. You cant turn that shit off. And yes im sure its very interesting that when the rabbit gets a manly face and a tattered red scarf its a reference to some character 30 years old. But the simple fact is that if you have to explain the joke its not funny and that text is blocking half the fucking screen. Don't even get me started on people mad that whatever untranslatable phrase or idom is RUINED when its not written out word for word. You walk up to someone that speaks swahili and ask them for hair of the dog they are going to look at you like you are fucking insane because that phrase means nothing to them. You have to find something to do and you sacrifice 1:1 accuracy for translating the intent which often times means replacing the idiom. That is the most correct way to translate that.
Translation notes that appear alongside translation is a cardinal sin. You want notes? Pack them away at the end of an episode or in some kind of menu or book somewhere. Mad some idiom got changed? Deal with it. Its better to be clear and concise than just assume your audience knows what some random combination of words means.
bobdillan
Forum Fanatic
- Nov 18, 2016
- 4,554
- 11,198
I would answered it with this quote
You just don't get target audience of Japanese vns at all, do you? i'll just try to make a simple enough analogy to show idiocy of your argument above. Let's say there are people who are interested in Shinto religion and yokai mythology. But when they try to ask about it some guru - the guru starts to explain it only with western fairytales because "it's more appropriate for American culture". Will this noob person be satisfied with such explanation? Of course not. He wanted to learn about youkai and miko dances - not about Snow White after all. And Shinto traditions differences from Western religions and fairytales is what attracted them in the first place - else they wouldn't even bother to ask about it. See what I mean?
Also, 99% of Japanese vns buyers knows what honorifics are even if it's their first VN (from anime, manga etc.) and 1% of those who don't - would be interested to know it - and they are buying Japanese media BECAUSE they want to know it. Therefore - there is no NEED to explain honorifics in in-game text at all. Worst case (extremely rare) scenario - some people would google it and that's it. As for more complicated references - they can be explained either with in-game text OR with additional extra notes outside of game. It's not big deal BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO PLAY IN JAPANESE MEDIA ABOUT JAPANESE PEOPLE AND JAPANESE CULTURE PLAY IT EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERESTED IN JAPANESE CULTURE AND THEY ENJOY LEARNING IT. Shiravune's approach to translation DESTROY this enjoyment and even the motivation to begin read the novel in the first place.
Of course there are lot of Japanese media oriented towards international auditory without any speck of Japanese culture in it (Silent Hill, Street Fighter etc.). And those works are meant for average american joe as well. HOWEVER there are lot of works which are EXTREMELY Japanese in nature - and can be interesting ONLY for those who wants to learn everything about Japan and enjoys doing it. Nukitashi is perfect example of one of the most Japanese works existing - with the main appeal of it and reason for being made - destroyed by Shiravune. it's a pity and shame.
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i do not care about the time a fortune teller went on Iron Chef alongside the managing director of the Hanshin Tigers as a judge and then said that they'd win the NPB that year, and then the Tigers came dead last, and I don't need to know that same fortune teller (a woman) consistently parrots misogynistic cold-war bullshit about how a woman's place is in the house. I don't need to know that she thought that when Japan's prime minister from 01-06 visited a shinto shrine that notoriously houses the graves of a bunch of WW2 war criminals a bunch of times in tenure, it was really cool and he should keep doing it.
this is functionally useless information that i'm stuck with because of the type of translations you want. a functionally equivalent localisation here is likely about like Karlie Kloss? i will take the Karlie Kloss localisation over dumb bullshit about Kazuko Hosoki, i dont care. if anyone learns about kazuko hosoki they will absolutely become dumber.
Wait wut... If you're reading a story happening on another country, by a person of another with another country's sensibilities then by definition you need to at least be somewhat familiar with that country's culture to fully understand that story, with translation or not, this logic is doesn't make sense. I mean, they literally put bazinga memes there.
MRN64
Member
- Apr 29, 2020
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There is a very large BOLD line between making a translation accurate and readable and adapting way too goddamn much. There are instances where using japanese words and referencing the culture is important and that is with stuff like nouns and loan words like otaku and proper names for foods or people and the like. If someone is eating onigiri its perfectly fine to translate it as rice ball or leave it as onigiri. If someone is called an otaku its fine to translate it as nerd or leave it as otaku. Lolicon and pedophile. Having to look up or know the definition of some very common words that pop up is not some huge barrier to entry and doesnt break the flow of the language. What DOES break the flow is shit that sounds plain unnatural or fucking stupid when spoken like trying to adapt how another language functions like with the honorific system. If something is being written in a way that sounds incredibly stupid for you to hear in a casual everyday conversation its a terrible translation. This is why honorifics being left in or copious amounts of notes inside the text are bad. A good translation flows like a natural conversation.
I dont give a shit about the "target audience" argument. If a group of people enjoy diving in a sewer it doesnt mean the sewer isnt a rancid stinking hole in the ground. It doesnt matter how much those people down there screech and bellow about how important it is to cater to their bullshit if what they are crying for is obviously wrong. At the end of the day all they are going to do is sling shit at people doing things they dont want to see for completely inane and silly reasons. The simple fact of the matter with any translation of anything is that sure there is a core audience that are diehard fans but that doesnt mean that there will never be new blood. If someone buys a translation and it reads like absolute garbage and requires a bunch of esoteric bullshit to understand its gonna turn them off. But what generally happens when you mention that is the standard gatekeeping bullshit about how they just need to understand the culture and language before reading it which is asinine. If you have to do a bunch of research to understand the basics of how to understand something you have no entry into the fandom and thats a really shitty thing.
Every translation is walking a tightrope. You have to balance pure accuracy with readability. Most people suck at this but skewing your expections so far to accuracy just outputs a bunch of unreadable garbage in a similar way that concentrating the other way does.
I dont give a shit about the "target audience" argument. If a group of people enjoy diving in a sewer it doesnt mean the sewer isnt a rancid stinking hole in the ground. It doesnt matter how much those people down there screech and bellow about how important it is to cater to their bullshit if what they are crying for is obviously wrong. At the end of the day all they are going to do is sling shit at people doing things they dont want to see for completely inane and silly reasons. The simple fact of the matter with any translation of anything is that sure there is a core audience that are diehard fans but that doesnt mean that there will never be new blood. If someone buys a translation and it reads like absolute garbage and requires a bunch of esoteric bullshit to understand its gonna turn them off. But what generally happens when you mention that is the standard gatekeeping bullshit about how they just need to understand the culture and language before reading it which is asinine. If you have to do a bunch of research to understand the basics of how to understand something you have no entry into the fandom and thats a really shitty thing.
Every translation is walking a tightrope. You have to balance pure accuracy with readability. Most people suck at this but skewing your expections so far to accuracy just outputs a bunch of unreadable garbage in a similar way that concentrating the other way does.
Speedwagon1900
New Member
- Jun 23, 2020
- 8
- 55
You seem to think your way is absolutely, unequivocally, the correct way of doing things.
Please understand that just because someone doesn't like a translation it doesn't mean they want it to be literal 1:1 and nothing less. I would argue it's more about the overall quality of the end product, especially in this case. I don't understand why someone shouting in excitement needs to be translated as "Poggers!" or "Bazinga!" Or a character needs to say "that aint it chief" or "I just owned my sister" like they just came back from 2018 and 2012 respectively.
You mentioned that a good translation flows like natural conversation, but I've never talked to someone who says "Poggers" or especially "Bazinga" in real life. If someone said some of the things in this script to me in a conversation it would not come off as natural.
Of course it'll never translate perfectly, the language structure is different and there are things that just don't work. That doesn't mean "jelly donuts" is a good replacement for "onigiri" or a difficult to translate joke being replaced with a terrible meme is a good choice for the sake of understanding.
If you're trying to change minds you aren't doing a very good job of that. You're not only making assumptions about what people aren't liking but pushing your own view as the only undebatable, correct way of doing things. I can't speak for everyone, but personally I don't want scripts to be hit with the jelly donut treatment. Visual novels are really niche; I don't think someone who has very little knowledge in anime/manga would be buying one, and especially one like this.
You seem a lot more upset than the people who just don't like the translation. You don't have to keep writing paragraphs to make your point over and over again.
It's a fun read so far. I'm not expecting anything good or deep, just that the funny story introduction lured me in.
MRN64
Member
- Apr 29, 2020
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My goal was never to try to change anyones mind. Thats silly considering most people no matter how wrong they are simply dig their heels in and never even attempt to look at a situation objectively. Im simply tired of all of the constant whining over ""accuracy"" and how people seem to think that sacrificing the thing actually being readable is somehow a good thing. I dont know how bad or good this translation is im just tired of people with little to no knowledge of what a translation actually entails crying about it. They are the equivalent of antivax tinfoil twitter soccer moms. The simple fact is that in every single instance outside of anime and manga any halfway decent translator prioritizes readability over pure accuracy for one simple reason. If it reads like shit and is hard to understand it pisses people off. As long as the translation is accurate to the basic meaning of what was said and isnt some rewritten or some kind of cringey substitution its fine.
And yes i am more upset that people cry about accuracy because if people actually take this shit they say seriously the translation norms just shift so far into esoteric word salad jargon bullshit its essentially unreadable for anyone thats not a diehard. That is not healthy for a market even one that is so far primarily fed by a niche. So yes i am simply complaining about people complaining. I dont really care though i just need to vent because this conversation has drug on so long and so many people are so invested in it that its stupid. People have been professionally translating japanese works for centuries and any self respecting translator has always cut out honorifics and reworded idioms and the like because that is how you translate. This isnt some kind of new or unique concept and anime/manga/VN arent some kind of super special exception. People need to pick up a book translated from japanese from an actual publisher sometime.
Kek that second review, someone really picked up a vn and complained there was too much text
Speedwagon1900
New Member
- Jun 23, 2020
- 8
- 55
So wait, you haven't even read this and you've been writing a thesis on it and the people who don't like the translation? Why don't you try reading it and see for yourself? It's not what you keep saying people are complaining about.
And please stop acting as if you are the supreme authority on translations. Once again, you are pushing the idea that only you are correct and only your idea is correct. Someone once said, "...most people no matter how wrong they are simply dig their heels in and never even attempt to look at a situation objectively." How can you make an objective take when you haven't even read the novel in question yourself? I won't be responding any further because I don't want to waste my time reading two more paragraphs full of words and no substance.
magrao121
Member
- Apr 1, 2019
- 459
- 404
yeah so far 5 hours and i laughed so hard, his sister is soo cute btw. these reviews are bullshit