VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[camube]

I don't think Edwin being sympathetic toward the club's prostitutes is inconsistent with his characterization so far, but I wrote it, so I suppose I wouldn't. He has always been portrayed as having qualms with the exploitative nature of the club from a logical/mental standpoint, but on a sensual level he becomes a hypocrite. The social mores ingrained in him are at odds with what he innately finds gratifying. Walking around, he'll think what most people would think, but he'll find having a flogger in his hand stimulating. There's supposed to be some push and pull in that regard, with some overcompensating, but it might not come across like that. If it doesn't, then it's either a failure of my writing or a mismatch of the perspectives we're bringing to the table.

To answer your question though, Edwin can't straddle the line forever. Eventually he'll have his critical moment and he'll need to start progressing toward the game's two main end states: getting his mentality in order and staying at the club or wanting to leave and dealing with any complications related to that.

This game is taxing to read. Really big kudos to the devs for making the writing really engaging to read.

Really looking forward to the continuation.

How far are we from the ending by the way? Are we already at halfway point? Or is the game would still roughly take another 3 years to complete?

I need to mentally perepare myself to be patient if we aren't even 25% point yet.

 

[camube]

I did notice this as well. I played through the game for the first time a few weeks before this update came out and it did feel like my MC was trending more towards embracing the club. I took all the dominant/"tough" options and while he still expressed reservations, it did really feel like he was starting to sink into the lifestyle. Then in the latest update the tone did seem to shift back a bit towards purity and selflessness. Not my best wording. More "empathy and kindness". This would make more sense if there was a scene where Edwin really reflected on his thoughts and actions and recoiled back from the darkness, not accepting what he was becoming and temporarily trying to be better until he inevitably falls back into that selfish desire to indulge his every whim. But without such a scene or event, the tonal shift does feel a bit out of place.

What's the difference between High Toughness and Low Toughness MC? Is it different mostly internal monologues or does the dialogues MC is having with other characters changes too?

 

[Hargan2]

What's the difference between High Toughness and Low Toughness MC? Is it different mostly internal monologues or does the dialogues MC is having with other characters changes too?

I haven't actually done a low toughness run, but toughness does seem to act as a general indicator of your character's dominance, and having high toughness unlocks some unique dialogue/scene options for humiliating/degrading the girls as well as acting more dominant and such.

 

[TD1900]

How far are we from the ending by the way? Are we already at halfway point? Or is the game would still roughly take another 3 years to complete?

There's five chapters, plus some epilogues. Keep in mind, chapters aren't created equally. Chapter 1 and 2 combined took the less development time than chapter 3 did.

 

[camube]

I haven't actually done a low toughness run, but toughness does seem to act as a general indicator of your character's dominance, and having high toughness unlocks some unique dialogue/scene options for humiliating/degrading the girls as well as acting more dominant and such.

My first blind playthrough my MC have low toughness and i missed some mother's flashbacks actually. Like, I don't even progress Rose's path at all because I rejected her on the apartment (I realized we were warned by the game's text but I didn't actually realized at the time that it would cut Rose's path entirely).

I didn't do the last task on Week 2 either, I let Ian do it for example.
And then I carried Hana to the bed so I never got the dream scene.

My low toughness MC dialogues are actually "relatively" *healthy*, all things considered.

I don't remember the internal monologues of that Low Toughness playthrough all that much though, which is why I asked.

 

[Turret]

I haven't actually done a low toughness run, but toughness does seem to act as a general indicator of your character's dominance, and having high toughness unlocks some unique dialogue/scene options for humiliating/degrading the girls as well as acting more dominant and such.

I think some of the questions about inconsistencies in writing are because the players asking did mainly a high toughness playthrough. The toughness score is not only about Edwin´s general resilence, but it is also an "asshole score" indicator.
The low toughness (up to about 12 points IIRC) Edwin (esp.with helper as motivation) is a really nice guy and has the inner monologue and feelings fitting for it. The 12-18 points Edwin is still really nice, but has made some "hard" decisions.

At about 18 points Toughness TD once called the character "mischievious". He still is a nice guy, but can be harder if the situation "demands" it. This Edwin is still nice and looks out for his friends, etc., but can do some actions, if he wants or needs to, which are harder, rougher, more egoistic.
At about 30 points Edwin is on the way towards becoming like Chuck (to a lesser extend except playing towards that) or Kath (which in this case is likely Edwin´s mentor). He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones.

As some theory about some later events where toughness will play a role is if edwin stays at PC or wants out. The low T and the mischievious Edwin might stay in the Club with Hana, making some reforms. Both Edwin (and Hana) version might have some corruption (if played towards that) in how wild they are in bed and how much they enjoy partaking "owners options", but they will lead PC towards being not as big a den of exploitation as it is now. (Hana´s talk with Feli during the Saturday event is one hint, Feli is there without external pressure, that is something which Hana would want for all the girls in PC. Hana is not against sex work, but that PC exploits many who are desperate.)
The 30+ Edwin on the other hand will be quite happy with how PC currently is and gets off it being a den of vices and sadism.

 

[Hargan2]

I think some of the questions about inconsistencies in writing are because the players asking did mainly a high toughness playthrough. The toughness score is not only about Edwin´s general resilence, but it is also an "asshole score" indicator.
The low toughness (up to about 12 points IIRC) Edwin (esp.with helper as motivation) is a really nice guy and has the inner monologue and feelings fitting for it. The 12-18 points Edwin is still really nice, but has made some "hard" decisions.

At about 18 points Toughness TD once called the character "mischievious". He still is a nice guy, but can be harder if the situation "demands" it. This Edwin is still nice and looks out for his friends, etc., but can do some actions, if he wants or needs to, which are harder, rougher, more egoistic.
At about 30 points Edwin is on the way towards becoming like Chuck (to a lesser extend except playing towards that) or Kath (which in this case is likely Edwin´s mentor). He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones.

Thank you for this, that provides a little context. In that case, I have another critique. This is not adequately communicated to the player. I went a high toughness route because I want to be a dominant, sometimes possibly sadistic, Edwin, but I don't want for him to be an asshole for no real reason. It is concerning that having a high toughness may lock me out of being nice, as I've been playing my Edwin with the mindset of "He's self-serving and enjoys the power he can get and wants as much as he can take, but he's also not an idiot who will be a dick for no reason at all." I've never been mean to Killian, for example, because even though I don't like him very much it's clear that the guy idolizes Edwin and there's no sense in throwing away a useful ally.

I've always seen toughness as a combination of literally "how physically tough is Edwin" plus "how tough can he act when needed." If it's meant to be a score of how assholeish he is, then that's a problem because that's not the impression I got at all.

in regards to this specific point :"He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones." That makes little sense. A sociopath lacks empathy and conscience, but they're not psychopaths. They often know the value of at least pretending to have empathy for purposes of manipulation and not throwing away potential allies or pawns. Also fuck Kath. I don't trust her at all.

 

[camube]

I think some of the questions about inconsistencies in writing are because the players asking did mainly a high toughness playthrough. The toughness score is not only about Edwin´s general resilence, but it is also an "asshole score" indicator.
The low toughness (up to about 12 points IIRC) Edwin (esp.with helper as motivation) is a really nice guy and has the inner monologue and feelings fitting for it. The 12-18 points Edwin is still really nice, but has made some "hard" decisions.

At about 18 points Toughness TD once called the character "mischievious". He still is a nice guy, but can be harder if the situation "demands" it. This Edwin is still nice and looks out for his friends, etc., but can do some actions, if he wants or needs to, which are harder, rougher, more egoistic.
At about 30 points Edwin is on the way towards becoming like Chuck (to a lesser extend except playing towards that) or Kath (which in this case is likely Edwin´s mentor). He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones.

As some theory about some later events where toughness will play a role is if edwin stays at PC or wants out. The low T and the mischievious Edwin might stay in the Club with Hana, making some reforms. Both Edwin (and Hana) version might have some corruption (if played towards that) in how wild they are in bed and how much they enjoy partaking "owners options", but they will lead PC towards being not as big a den of exploitation as it is now. (Hana´s talk with Feli during the Saturday event is one hint, Feli is there without external pressure, that is something which Hana would want for all the girls in PC. Hana is not against sex work, but that PC exploits many who are desperate.)
The 30+ Edwin on the other hand will be quite happy with how PC currently is and gets off it being a den of vices and sadism.

Yeah my blind playthrough Low Toughness MC had Helper background. I don't think he's that "messed up" in his inner monologues, relatively speaking

Hence why I asked if I play High Toughness would the internal monologues be different.

Because if so, I might do a high toughness speedrun just to read the unread dialogues from the other side.

 

[Turret]

Thank you for this, that provides a little context. In that case, I have another critique. This is not adequately communicated to the player. I went a high toughness route because I want to be a dominant, sometimes possibly sadistic, Edwin, but I don't want for him to be an asshole for no real reason. It is concerning that having a high toughness may lock me out of being nice, as I've been playing my Edwin with the mindset of "He's self-serving and enjoys the power he can get and wants as much as he can take, but he's also not an idiot who will be a dick for no reason at all." I've never been mean to Killian, for example, because even though I don't like him very much it's clear that the guy idolizes Edwin and there's no sense in throwing away a useful ally.

I've always seen toughness as a combination of literally "how physically tough is Edwin" plus "how tough can he act when needed." If it's meant to be a score of how assholeish he is, then that's a problem because that's not the impression I got at all.

in regards to this specific point :"He is on the fast way to become a sociopath and best buddy of Kath. Not only impcts that his inner monologue, but you loose some choice options, mainly the nice and human ones." That makes little sense. A sociopath lacks empathy and conscience, but they're not psychopaths. They often know the value of at least pretending to have empathy for purposes of manipulation and not throwing away potential allies or pawns. Also fuck Kath. I don't trust her at all.

Thanks, glad I could help!
Toughness is a combination score. It is to a certain extend Edwin´s physical toughness, but it is also and a bit more a score how self-serving, callous and unfeeling Edwin becomes.(Think the fairy tale "Das kalte Herz", don´t know the english title, translated it is the cold heart or sayings like cold-hearted, stone-cold, etc)

The e.g. 11 points Edwin can still be physically a rock (e.g. with taking strong or tireless boons as indicator), but it is an Edwin who is a really nice guy, wants to help... he can make hard choices, but it is a battle for him. And some sadist choices he will not do (greyed out)
The 20 points Edwin is still a nice guy with his principles, but he is "pragmatic" and can be "impish". He can make hard rough choices, if he finds them really(!) necessary or wants to darkly prank someone. But he won´t do it all that often.
The 30+ Edwin is a powerhungry, self-serving ass, who rarely thinks about what others think or have to do.

That becomes clear over the run of the game. There are toughness choices which are just measurements of resilence, which have no major imprint on Edwin´s relations with others and how he sees himself. And there are a lot events where making the toughness or the tougher(!) choice will aslo impact your relations. You can see that quite fine in stat changes. For instance, not all, but the majority of tough and rough choices give you boni with Kath and/or Veronica in part. Veronica is not like Kath, but likes powerplay games in her relationships.

 

[TD1900]

Toughness has had so far has very impact on the story and alters only a marginal amount of lines, usually making the odd chunk of dialogue from Edwin more forceful / derogatory. It was always meant to flavor things a tad, just like the history choices for example, but it is admittedly pretty under utilized as of now. Mostly because I've found more context dependent dialogue more natural and useful in that regard - like choosing to talk dirty in a scene or getting angry at Felicia during the photoshoot.

It'll tie into how things unfold at a later point, but currently, I would say it as of yet doesn't meaningfully change Edwin's character.

 

[Hargan2]

Toughness has had so far has very impact on the story and alters only a marginal amount of lines, usually making the odd chunk of dialogue from Edwin more forceful / derogatory. It was always meant to flavor things a tad, just like the history choices for example, but it is admittedly pretty under utilized as of now. Mostly because I've found more context dependent dialogue more natural and useful in that regard - like choosing to talk dirty in a scene or getting angry at Felicia during the photoshoot.

It'll tie into how things unfold at a later point, but currently, I would say it as of yet doesn't meaningfully change Edwin's character.

Thank you for this. The information provided above was leading me to think that toughness played a bigger role in Edwin's character than the actual choices you make. It's definitely better in my opinion to use choices to portray your character's personality, as I'd very much like for my Edwin to be "kind" when it will provide the best results yet not be afraid to play the role of absolute asshole and indulge himself when he wants or needs to. Hopefully you continue in this vein, as the depth of choice and resulting character development is something I absolutely love in this game.

 

[Turret]

Thank you for this. The information provided above was leading me to think that toughness played a bigger role in Edwin's character than the actual choices you make. It's definitely better in my opinion to use choices to portray your character's personality, as I'd very much like for my Edwin to be "kind" when it will provide the best results yet not be afraid to play the role of absolute asshole and indulge himself when he wants or needs to. Hopefully you continue in this vein, as the depth of choice and resulting character development is something I absolutely love in this game.

As seen, TD1900 did explain a bit more. Sorry, if it came across as would toughness shape Edwin´s characters massively.
The score steps I told you are real (TD mentioned them quite a time ago already) and definitely an indicator into what directions Edwin tendencially develops. It is a measure which will become more impactful over time. And that is natural I think, for e.g. Edwin´s score to be high he has to have made quite a number of harsh choices. If you have a Kath score of over 20, then it is easy to say that your toughness is also high, because you make points with her with normally choosing the asshole and psycho choices.

 

[Hargan2]

If you have a Kath score of over 20, then it is easy to say that your toughness is also high, because you make points with her with normally choosing the asshole and psycho choices.

I have a toughness of 30 and a Kath affection score of 25, yeah. Trust is 8 though, and regardless of how much she likes me I will certainly never trust her. I'm angling to support August if it ever comes to a choice between the two.

 

[Turret]

I have a toughness of 30 and a Kath affection score of 25, yeah. Trust is 8 though, and regardless of how much she likes me I will certainly never trust her. I'm angling to support August if it ever comes to a choice between the two.

Your playthrough shows how different we players play the game and that our choices matter and shape Edwin. I have a low toughness run (currently 10 or 11 points) and I mistrusted Kath from early on, but decided to "keep my enemies closer". Last time I checked I have 10 trust points with Kath and she likes me with about 12 points. As said, this is the result of chosing a couple events to get some bolster, as I think Kath scores will fall later on. Because I most definitely will not help her powerplay.

 

[Hargan2]

Your playthrough shows how different we players play the game and that our choices matter and shape Edwin. I have a low toughness run (currently 10 or 11 points) and I mistrusted Kath from early on, but decided to "keep my enemies closer". Last time I checked I have 10 trust points with Kath and she likes me with about 12 points. As said, this is the result of chosing a couple events to get some bolster, as I think Kath scores will fall later on. Because I most definitely will not help her powerplay.

Ah, nice. I respect August's (seeming) honesty and straightforwardness, so unless he gives me reason to distrust him I like him a lot more than Kath, who very clearly has ulterior motives and comes off as someone who is hiding things and manipulating you. I could go the route of trying to make her trust me, but I like to be more straightforward and simple, so I instead make no attempt to hide the fact that I don't particularly like her but do like the perks of working for her. So she doesn't trust me, but she does apparently like me at least a little anyway.

 

[Hallowicked]

Just did my first Playthrough and iam still stunned about the Story,Choices and Animations of this Masterpiece.The Game seriously caught me off guard by reveal the Backstory of Veronica and the cruel intentions behind it.

Iam hooked and will definitely play again as a complete extreme Character.

 

[Coyote01]

Good morning.

I think i'm making myself unpopular now, but I love the character of Kathleen. So I have a question for TD1900 . Will the path between MC and Kathleen continue and also have a common ending or will there still be an ending for the main girls?

 

[TD1900]

Good morning.

I think i'm making myself unpopular now, but I love the character of Kathleen. So I have a question for TD1900 . Will the path between MC and Kathleen continue and also have a common ending or will there still be an ending for the main girls?

Kathleen will factor prominently across the endings, in varying ways, depending on how it plays out. She doesn't really have a romantic route per se, but in some cases, it'll be pretty spicy.

 

[Coyote01]

Kathleen will factor prominently across the endings, in varying ways, depending on how it plays out. She doesn't really have a romantic route per se, but in some cases, it'll be pretty spicy.

Ohh... thank you very much for the quick answer.

I had already thought that it wouldn't be a romantic route. Then I'm very curious to see how it will go with her.

Thank you very much for this great game!

 

[Ranting Old Man]

I just wanted to point out thay you guys took my porn comment in the 80s WAY too literally. This was the time the porn industry started to bloom, that was my point and from then until most recently, the pay women have gotten from participating in that industry has been absolutely shit, it has always been predatory and unforgiving. There are plenty of documentarys and former stars that have come forward with mountains of evidence that proves this. So the point isn't that Edwin is an 80s porn child, but more so that trying to do porn with a child even back then and remain relevant and well paid, she would have had to be on Pamela Anderson levels of famous. 1 or 2 or even 10 videos would have been FAR from enough. So the point is money had to come from somewhere, so even if you point out there may have been more than one video, when you have a ton of desperate women coming to you for a quick buck the youngest get plucked first and everyone involved is literally a dime a dozen. Some girls do shoots for as little as $200.00 for a single video. If you think that's alot it's not, you have a ton of competition and absolutely need to keep making videos to stay relevant. So yeah I think she was connected to the Carnation, and as far as Chuck would have allowed Kilian to watch? Are you kidding me? Allow your nephew in your secret organization to watch his best friends mother go through these games, a women he himself respects and then expect him NOT to say anything to one of the most important people in the world to him? Your joking right? No WAY someone as Smart as Chuck would allow such a risk.

Now i love all the comments and many of you have brought up excellent points and I will have to go back through and play again to confirm, like the Carnation events being relatively brand new and other inconsistencies that i have had, that's fine I'm just happy we are all talking and thinking about it, hopefully this inspires are great authors into some ideas along the way.