VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[YuNobi1]

Is a walkthrough necessary for this game? I.e are there straight up wrong choices?

Not "necessary" to play, but necessary to ensure you don't miss the content you want as there are decisions at multiple points that trigger branching content paths. Like the recent update the MC can be with Veronica or Rosalind, but if you choose a specific dialogue choice with Veronica, Rosalind is blocked without warning.

 

[shitass1001]

The duplicity of people is very much one, if not the core theme of the game and you can see it in almost every character including the MC himself.

The smart scientist that mentors young people to get them a high education...who also owns a sex club and brothel.
The sweet and innocent young actress...who is secretly bursting with sexual curiosity.
The hard-ass biker and punk chick that seems to not be fazed by anything...who is internally totally distraught over the condition of her mother.
The wife of a judge who leads a women aid organization...who actually abuses that organization to exploit women.
The confident and prideful selfmade-woman...who actually run her business into the ground and is full of self doubt.
And so on...and so on...

I mean the whole club is an example of the duplicity of society. Tons of "upstanding", high society people that would be pointed out as pillars of the community who in reality are degenerated pigs and in some ways utter lowlifes.

This is a good analysis of the story, well said.

 

[DevinHesi]

Good news today: Chapter 4 Update 4 is officially under develolment!

Spoiler: Dev Diary 62

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Let's see if we can get the new spreadsheet up to speed. In the 8 days since work on Chapter 4 Update 4 began, TD and GIL have completed 170 static images, 0 animations and 5166 words. That's an average (both locally and overall) of roughly 149 statics, 0.0 animations and 4520 words per week. Here are the charts for Week 1:

Spoiler: Great Updates Begin By Charting a Single Step

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I'm eager to see what the next update has for us; it sounds like it will be a big one. That makes sense, since my guess is it will need to juggle significant content for Rosalind and Felicia as well as whatever revelations we uncover from the increasingly perilous Darius investigation. Add in some time for Mina, Hana and the Club and I get the impression the new update has a lot of ground to cover. Given that I'd expect this dev cycle to be on the long end - unless it gets cut in half partway through, of course.

We'll see what happens. It will be tough to wait, but even with the tragic drop off in Veronica content I'm definitely excited to see the next step!

 

[Biscardone]

Yes, but this way the player also experiences the same surprise the MC does. I guess a lot of people (myself included) are playing these games very "goal" oriented with a mod or a guide to see as much content as possible, so those get called out by this mood-swing from Veronica a bit. While people that just take the decisions because they seem to them to be the right one or because they roleplay the MC in a certain way, have more from a switch like this.

Agreed. The structure of choices in VNs can often be very simplistic: players are often lead to rely on a sort of reward system, where every choice has an immediate consequence or reaction. In developer terms, a +1 on a variable, or a flag set (if you play with the aid of a tool like URM, you can even see this change before the choice is made, and act accordingly). This makes things easy to manage, both for players and authors... but it is utterly unrealistic.
If you slap someone in the face, you're can expect to have an immediate reaction. If you compliment, or even insult someone, you may have one... but you may not. People are not so simple. Think of an underhanded insult: the first reaction may be to laugh it off, but the effects may fester.
That's why I think Veronica changing her mind is brilliant. And while I don't advocate every choice of the game to be this convoluted, it makes the game less predictable and more complex.

 

[TD1900]

Veronica declining during the call is kind of an unfortunate case of story clashing with game design. From a story perspective it's fine for Veronica to say no and later call back, but from a game perspective, it makes sense that players feel they messed up the route and ask for help when they don't get a positive response from her.

This situation creates some confusion. Maybe something to keep in mind for future decisions in the game.

I knew it would cause some people to second guess if they failed a point check or not, but I accepted it.
Or maybe even relished it a little bit.

Even if it's not the case with most players (just guessing), I like approaching the design of these things from the standpoint of someone engaging with the story honestly and just let the punches roll without trying to meta-game outcomes.

I'm not dismissing your criticism or anything. I appreciate you mentioning it, even. I think it's valid, especially as there are other examples in the story where similarly not-quite-forcasted choices have uncomfortably long-reaching results that are pretty fucking egregious. In my opinion, the game design of the project is indeed sorely lacking. I've made some errors on the back end that I wish I could take another stab at from a more seasoned perspective.

However, in this particular instance, I'm comfortable with the game side of things taking a backseat in favor of the characters. The way exhibition 2 got calculated over an entire week not so much.

Another issue is that Pale Carnations hides the time stamps from save games, so I tend to forget what my last save was. I try to keep my paths organized on separate save pages but I thought I picked the wrong save.

I'll make a note about this. The next update is going to see some UI overhauls (like a more organized gallery, among other things), so I'll take a look into adding back some functionality that I haphazardly carved out.

 

[kumenl0l]

I knew it would cause some people to second guess if they failed a point check or not, but I accepted it.
Or maybe even relished it a little bit.

Even if it's not the case with most players (just guessing), I like approaching the design of these things from the standpoint of someone engaging with the story honestly and just let the punches roll without trying to meta-game outcomes.

I'm not dismissing your criticism or anything. I appreciate you mentioning it, even. I think it's valid, especially as there are other examples in the story where similarly not-quite-forcasted choices have uncomfortably long-reaching results that are pretty fucking egregious. In my opinion, the game design of the project is indeed sorely lacking. I've made some errors on the back end that I wish I could take another stab at from a more seasoned perspective.

However, in this particular instance, I'm comfortable with the game side of things taking a backseat in favor of the characters. The way exhibition 2 got calculated over an entire week not so much.



I'll make a note about this. The next update is going to see some UI overhauls (like a more organized gallery, among other things), so I'll take a look into adding back some functionality that I haphazardly carved out.

sir, how dare you. I have been meta-gaming outcomes since I first played Do You Like Horny Bunnies 2 in 2007!

 

[Takkatakka]

That's why I think Veronica changing her mind is brilliant. And while I don't advocate every choice of the game to be this convoluted, it makes the game less predictable and more complex.

I think I wouldn't agree with that in principle. Yes, humans are like all animals very shortsighted and need gratification or punishment immediately for it to really work. Like you don't tell a puppy 2 days after it pissed into the living room that that was wrong, but you have to do it within a few minutes for the dog to understand it.

So the "press button and get result" is somewhat ingrained to humans as well and while we CAN understand certain long term results of our actions on a cognitive level, it will have a much harder time to work well. Especially with a game like this, where your action might have been like 4 updates aka 2 years ago.

Another important point for a game and especially for renpy games where the interaction is very limited to begin with, is the fact that the player - generally - needs to be able to make informed decisions. If the few decision you make lead to completely random results, then that will only ever be frustrating even if it might be somewhat more "realistic".

Of course that was not really the case here, where the player didn't really make a decision (at least not a decision in this update) and where the original decision leading to this new result made sense.

 

[Biscardone]

I think I wouldn't agree with that in principle. Yes, humans are like all animals very shortsighted and need gratification or punishment immediately for it to really work. Like you don't tell a puppy 2 days after it pissed into the living room that that was wrong, but you have to do it within a few minutes for the dog to understand it.

So the "press button and get result" is somewhat ingrained to humans as well and while we CAN understand certain long term results of our actions on a cognitive level, it will have a much harder time to work well. Especially with a game like this, where your action might have been like 4 updates aka 2 years ago.

Another important point for a game and especially for renpy games where the interaction is very limited to begin with, is the fact that the player - generally - needs to be able to make informed decisions. If the few decision you make lead to completely random results, then that will only ever be frustrating even if it might be somewhat more "realistic".

Of course that was not really the case here, where the player didn't really make a decision (at least not a decision in this update) and where the original decision leading to this new result made sense.

I can understand where you're coming from, but this is where I have to disagree. And this is fine, it's all a matter of opinions anyways. But I think that simplifying the design of a VN to instantly gratify the player is one of the biggest disservice one can do to a good narrative, because it leads to the blandest, most generic game experiences. You can expect a dog, or a small child, to have a temper tantrum when you're taking him to the doctor's - not an adult, who's expected to mitigate his instincts.

I've played way too many VNs where choices are front-loaded: compliment the girl, you get one point. Praise her enough, she'll fall in your arms. Now, as a counter-example, I'd like to take one scene from "Light of my Life". You're driving home your daughter Macy from her job. She's in a foul mood, so you try and extend an olive branch telling her there's a candy bar in the glove compartment - her favorite flavor. She smiles, reaches for the candy bar... and throws it out of the car window. You actually unwillingly made her angrier. Do the same a couple of days after, when she had time to mull over some complicated feelings, and she'll gladly accept. Context is everything, and doing "the right thing" may not be always the right thing to do.

That's why I adore narratives that ask more of the player than the usual "choose the blatantly obvious choice". Neither because I like to be a contrarian, nor because I like my expectations to be subverted just for the sake of it: simply because I agree with TD, story and character motivations should always have precedence over gaming the system.

Moreover, while I understand that the episodic nature of Patreon-funded games can lead to the player forgetting some story beats and the rationales of some events, I don't think the narrative should be built around that fact. One day, some years from now, we'll be able to play a completed game, as it was meant to be played: I prefer narratives to be built around the finishing line, not the intermediate release dates. That's also why intermediate release are not always people pleasers ("no sex with my favorite character, worst update ever") - and they really shouldn't mean to be.

 

[Takkatakka]

I can understand where you're coming from, but this is where I have to disagree. And this is fine, it's all a matter of opinions anyways. But I think that simplifying the design of a VN to instantly gratify the player is one of the biggest disservice one can do to a good narrative, because it leads to the blandest, most generic game experiences. You can expect a dog, or a small child, to have a temper tantrum when you're taking him to the doctor's - not an adult, who's expected to mitigate his instincts.

I've played way too many VNs where choices are front-loaded: compliment the girl, you get one point. Praise her enough, she'll fall in your arms. Now, as a counter-example, I'd like to take one scene from "Light of my Life". You're driving home your daughter Macy from her job. She's in a foul mood, so you try and extend an olive branch telling her there's a candy bar in the glove compartment - her favorite flavor. She smiles, reaches for the candy bar... and throws it out of the car window. You actually unwillingly made her angrier. Do the same a couple of days after, when she had time to mull over some complicated feelings, and she'll gladly accept. Context is everything, and doing "the right thing" may not be always the right thing to do.

That's why I adore narratives that ask more of the player than the usual "choose the blatantly obvious choice". Neither because I like to be a contrarian, nor because I like my expectations to be subverted just for the sake of it: simply because I agree with TD, story and character motivations should always have precedence over gaming the system.

Moreover, while I understand that the episodic nature of Patreon-funded games can lead to the player forgetting some story beats and the rationales of some events, I don't think the narrative should be built around that fact. One day, some years from now, we'll be able to play a completed game, as it was meant to be played: I prefer narratives to be built around the finishing line, not the intermediate release dates. That's also why intermediate release are not always people pleasers ("no sex with my favorite character, worst update ever") - and they really shouldn't mean to be.

I'm not saying, you can't have longer lasting decisions, I'm just saying you have to be careful with it and do it more attentively then you would do it with a decision that shows its result immediately.

If the player is supposed to make a decision it better not have a "random" but very fundamental outcome 2 years of development time or 5 hours of playtime later, that would just be frustrating.

 

[dolfe67]

I have more issue with the "being boyfriend of Hana" choice. It wasn't very clear what that menu of choices would entail

 

[concord72]

Running into this error when I try to load my save, can anyone help?

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in script
    python hide:
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ast.py", line 914, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 2028, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in <module>
    python hide:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 35, in _execute_python_hide
    ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ui.py", line 297, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 2702, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 3518, in interact_core
    rv = root_widget.event(ev, x, y, 0)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\screen.py", line 714, in event
    rv = self.child.event(ev, x, y, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 962, in event
    return handle_click(self.clicked)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 897, in handle_click
    rv = run(action)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 320, in run
    return action(*args, **kwargs)
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\loadsave.py", line 770, in load
    log.unfreeze(roots, label="_after_load")
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1983, in unfreeze
    self.rollback(0, force=True, label=label, greedy=greedy, on_load=True)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1815, in rollback
    self.load_failed()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1733, in load_failed
    raise Exception("Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?")
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

Windows-8-6.2.9200
Ren'Py 7.3.5.606
Pale Carnations Ch4Up3
Sun Sep 17 13:34:11 2023

 

[Bill Temple]

Running into this error when I try to load my save, can anyone help?

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in script
    python hide:
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ast.py", line 914, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 2028, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in <module>
    python hide:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 35, in _execute_python_hide
    ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ui.py", line 297, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 2702, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 3518, in interact_core
    rv = root_widget.event(ev, x, y, 0)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\screen.py", line 714, in event
    rv = self.child.event(ev, x, y, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 962, in event
    return handle_click(self.clicked)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 897, in handle_click
    rv = run(action)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 320, in run
    return action(*args, **kwargs)
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\loadsave.py", line 770, in load
    log.unfreeze(roots, label="_after_load")
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1983, in unfreeze
    self.rollback(0, force=True, label=label, greedy=greedy, on_load=True)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1815, in rollback
    self.load_failed()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1733, in load_failed
    raise Exception("Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?")
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

Windows-8-6.2.9200
Ren'Py 7.3.5.606
Pale Carnations Ch4Up3
Sun Sep 17 13:34:11 2023

Is the save from a modded version and you're playing unmodded now? Vice versa?

 

[Takkatakka]

I have more issue with the "being boyfriend of Hana" choice. It wasn't very clear what that menu of choices would entail

Well, I would think it would be relatively clear that it closes you of from a lot of content if you take it serious. She stipulates it right away, so it's not like that is a decision that lets you wait for years to see the result.

 

[dolfe67]

Well, I would think it would be relatively clear that it closes you of from a lot of content if you take it serious. She stipulates it right away, so it's not like that is a decision that lets you wait for years to see the result.

I mean it wasn't clear that it was a girlfriend choice IIRC

 

[Takkatakka]

I mean it wasn't clear that it was a girlfriend choice IIRC

Okay, I might misunderstand what you mean, but I think it is about as clear as it can get (or did they patch that in later due to feedback?):

 

[dolfe67]

Okay, I might misunderstand what you mean, but I think it is about as clear as it can get (or did they patch that in later due to feedback?):

View attachment 2937399

Last time I played this part, there wasn't the [Hana GF] and [Fuck buddies] tags I think

 

[Takkatakka]

Last time I played this part, there wasn't the [Hana GF] and [Fuck buddies] tags

Okay, then they changed that. I actually kinda wondered why those tags were there...you were probably not the only one that found it a bit too unclear.

 

[ename144]

Realism is why I think this is a game design issue and not a story problem. As you say, VNs aren't realistic; they have logic that's mostly shared across VNs. Players expect choices in VNs to behave a certain way. Players know there are paths and are trying to get on paths. Players don't have any reason to think that this choice is going to be so odd.

From what I can tell, Pale Carnations is trying to do something different with its story and characters, but it's not trying to reinvent the VN wheel. There's no reason to think PC is going to challenge how choices work.

Veronica's path is already somewhat difficult to get on. Players might have restarted for this update to get the hug (which has immediate feedback), then get rejected on the phone call and give up. There's nothing that tells the player they didn't mess up the path.

My first reaction to the phone call was "Sigh ... I have to restart again", not "That's interesting" or "She's a tough nut to crack" or "Maybe next time." Another issue is that Pale Carnations hides the time stamps from save games, so I tend to forget what my last save was. I try to keep my paths organized on separate save pages but I thought I picked the wrong save.

Was the purpose of this scene to take players out of the story and to question if they were on the right path in the game? If so, then good job. If not, then maybe this didn't hit the mark for the game design. For the story it was good moment though.

You're right there's a potential problem here, but I think I side with Biscardone in thinking this particular case works fine as is. Pale Carnations is normally pretty good about greying out choices we're unable to make, so the fact that the choice to ask Veronica out for drinks is available (and is explicitly linked to befriending her) made it clear that the lack of immediate progress wasn't an error in my playstyle. For me, anyway.

I'd probably be more worried about it if the choice appeared to make negative progress rather than being neutral (e.g. if Veronica hung up in a tiff only to rethink and call the MC back later), but even then I wouldn't rule it out completely. In a game that focuses as heavily on the characters as this one, I think it's reasonable and rewarding to expect the player to make some blind guesses about how a given action will be perceived; it makes the game feel far more immersive than when everything is explicitly spelled out.

The trick is that the game needs to establish a clear framework early on for what the various characters like and how certain actions will be perceived. We need something to calibrate our expectations before we go on to make the truly weighty decisions. I think PC has done a good job of this so far, particularly with Veronica: it's clear she's a very prideful woman who doesn't like being forced into anything, so it makes sense she'd need time to warm up to an idea as radical as a date with her 'handler.'

You described Veronica's path as difficult, but IMHO that's not quite right. Veronica's path is actually very simple, it just requires the MC to act very differently than is expected of him (or a typical AVN protagonist, for that matter): roll your eyes at all the lewd options laid out for you and treat Veronica as a buddy instead. You might need a separate playthrough to do it, but I thought it was pretty clear what it takes to get on her good side. Given that, shrugging and accepting it the first time Veronica spurns an olive branch felt like second nature at this point.

Last time I played this part, there wasn't the [Hana GF] and [Fuck buddies] tags I think

The tags were there from the beginning, or at least from the public release of Chapter 4 Update 1. It's true that Hana doesn't explicitly describe the rules for her GF path until after you select it, but she does so immediately afterwards, and it was exactly what I would have expected from the offer. I don't see much confusion here. Sure, we don't know *exactly* what future options we might be foreclosing with our choice, but that's just the way life works.

 

[Shawnchapp]

The way exhibition 2 got calculated over an entire week not so much.

as someone who plays with the rpys open (cause i don't do "routes" i play all at once Lol i refuse to do replays) gotta be honest there is actual a problem with the calculation you did, it doesn't really take into account of points being tied.. most of the "events" default to one character only (roslina if im remember right) made her have 2 points (last event) by default just for tying with the others, I'm fine with her winning all ties but im not sure others are... Suggestio would be maybe have a random number pick a winner in ties OR
the much better and very big wishful thinking and more work for you suggestion option tie breaker events!



and since im here

Does anyone have an recommendation for games similar to this?

 

[Zero141214]

as someone who plays with the rpys open (cause i don't do "routes" i play all at once Lol i refuse to do replays) gotta be honest there is actual a problem with the calculation you did, it doesn't really take into account of points being tied.. most of the "events" default to one character only (roslina if im remember right) made her have 2 points (last event) by default just for tying with the others, I'm fine with her winning all ties but im not sure others are... Suggestio would be maybe have a random number pick a winner in ties OR
the much better and very big wishful thinking and more work for you suggestion option tie breaker events!



and since im here

Does anyone have an recommendation for games similar to this?

There're many very good games in this web, but similar to this? I don't think so, it's one of a kind.