VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Takkatakka]

That's why I think Veronica changing her mind is brilliant. And while I don't advocate every choice of the game to be this convoluted, it makes the game less predictable and more complex.

I think I wouldn't agree with that in principle. Yes, humans are like all animals very shortsighted and need gratification or punishment immediately for it to really work. Like you don't tell a puppy 2 days after it pissed into the living room that that was wrong, but you have to do it within a few minutes for the dog to understand it.

So the "press button and get result" is somewhat ingrained to humans as well and while we CAN understand certain long term results of our actions on a cognitive level, it will have a much harder time to work well. Especially with a game like this, where your action might have been like 4 updates aka 2 years ago.

Another important point for a game and especially for renpy games where the interaction is very limited to begin with, is the fact that the player - generally - needs to be able to make informed decisions. If the few decision you make lead to completely random results, then that will only ever be frustrating even if it might be somewhat more "realistic".

Of course that was not really the case here, where the player didn't really make a decision (at least not a decision in this update) and where the original decision leading to this new result made sense.

 

[Biscardone]

I think I wouldn't agree with that in principle. Yes, humans are like all animals very shortsighted and need gratification or punishment immediately for it to really work. Like you don't tell a puppy 2 days after it pissed into the living room that that was wrong, but you have to do it within a few minutes for the dog to understand it.

So the "press button and get result" is somewhat ingrained to humans as well and while we CAN understand certain long term results of our actions on a cognitive level, it will have a much harder time to work well. Especially with a game like this, where your action might have been like 4 updates aka 2 years ago.

Another important point for a game and especially for renpy games where the interaction is very limited to begin with, is the fact that the player - generally - needs to be able to make informed decisions. If the few decision you make lead to completely random results, then that will only ever be frustrating even if it might be somewhat more "realistic".

Of course that was not really the case here, where the player didn't really make a decision (at least not a decision in this update) and where the original decision leading to this new result made sense.

I can understand where you're coming from, but this is where I have to disagree. And this is fine, it's all a matter of opinions anyways. But I think that simplifying the design of a VN to instantly gratify the player is one of the biggest disservice one can do to a good narrative, because it leads to the blandest, most generic game experiences. You can expect a dog, or a small child, to have a temper tantrum when you're taking him to the doctor's - not an adult, who's expected to mitigate his instincts.

I've played way too many VNs where choices are front-loaded: compliment the girl, you get one point. Praise her enough, she'll fall in your arms. Now, as a counter-example, I'd like to take one scene from "Light of my Life". You're driving home your daughter Macy from her job. She's in a foul mood, so you try and extend an olive branch telling her there's a candy bar in the glove compartment - her favorite flavor. She smiles, reaches for the candy bar... and throws it out of the car window. You actually unwillingly made her angrier. Do the same a couple of days after, when she had time to mull over some complicated feelings, and she'll gladly accept. Context is everything, and doing "the right thing" may not be always the right thing to do.

That's why I adore narratives that ask more of the player than the usual "choose the blatantly obvious choice". Neither because I like to be a contrarian, nor because I like my expectations to be subverted just for the sake of it: simply because I agree with TD, story and character motivations should always have precedence over gaming the system.

Moreover, while I understand that the episodic nature of Patreon-funded games can lead to the player forgetting some story beats and the rationales of some events, I don't think the narrative should be built around that fact. One day, some years from now, we'll be able to play a completed game, as it was meant to be played: I prefer narratives to be built around the finishing line, not the intermediate release dates. That's also why intermediate release are not always people pleasers ("no sex with my favorite character, worst update ever") - and they really shouldn't mean to be.

 

[Takkatakka]

I can understand where you're coming from, but this is where I have to disagree. And this is fine, it's all a matter of opinions anyways. But I think that simplifying the design of a VN to instantly gratify the player is one of the biggest disservice one can do to a good narrative, because it leads to the blandest, most generic game experiences. You can expect a dog, or a small child, to have a temper tantrum when you're taking him to the doctor's - not an adult, who's expected to mitigate his instincts.

I've played way too many VNs where choices are front-loaded: compliment the girl, you get one point. Praise her enough, she'll fall in your arms. Now, as a counter-example, I'd like to take one scene from "Light of my Life". You're driving home your daughter Macy from her job. She's in a foul mood, so you try and extend an olive branch telling her there's a candy bar in the glove compartment - her favorite flavor. She smiles, reaches for the candy bar... and throws it out of the car window. You actually unwillingly made her angrier. Do the same a couple of days after, when she had time to mull over some complicated feelings, and she'll gladly accept. Context is everything, and doing "the right thing" may not be always the right thing to do.

That's why I adore narratives that ask more of the player than the usual "choose the blatantly obvious choice". Neither because I like to be a contrarian, nor because I like my expectations to be subverted just for the sake of it: simply because I agree with TD, story and character motivations should always have precedence over gaming the system.

Moreover, while I understand that the episodic nature of Patreon-funded games can lead to the player forgetting some story beats and the rationales of some events, I don't think the narrative should be built around that fact. One day, some years from now, we'll be able to play a completed game, as it was meant to be played: I prefer narratives to be built around the finishing line, not the intermediate release dates. That's also why intermediate release are not always people pleasers ("no sex with my favorite character, worst update ever") - and they really shouldn't mean to be.

I'm not saying, you can't have longer lasting decisions, I'm just saying you have to be careful with it and do it more attentively then you would do it with a decision that shows its result immediately.

If the player is supposed to make a decision it better not have a "random" but very fundamental outcome 2 years of development time or 5 hours of playtime later, that would just be frustrating.

 

[dolfe67]

I have more issue with the "being boyfriend of Hana" choice. It wasn't very clear what that menu of choices would entail

 

[concord72]

Running into this error when I try to load my save, can anyone help?

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in script
    python hide:
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ast.py", line 914, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 2028, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in <module>
    python hide:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 35, in _execute_python_hide
    ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ui.py", line 297, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 2702, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 3518, in interact_core
    rv = root_widget.event(ev, x, y, 0)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\screen.py", line 714, in event
    rv = self.child.event(ev, x, y, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 962, in event
    return handle_click(self.clicked)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 897, in handle_click
    rv = run(action)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 320, in run
    return action(*args, **kwargs)
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\loadsave.py", line 770, in load
    log.unfreeze(roots, label="_after_load")
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1983, in unfreeze
    self.rollback(0, force=True, label=label, greedy=greedy, on_load=True)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1815, in rollback
    self.load_failed()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1733, in load_failed
    raise Exception("Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?")
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

Windows-8-6.2.9200
Ren'Py 7.3.5.606
Pale Carnations Ch4Up3
Sun Sep 17 13:34:11 2023

 

[Bill Temple]

Running into this error when I try to load my save, can anyone help?

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in script
    python hide:
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ast.py", line 914, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 2028, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 28, in <module>
    python hide:
  File "renpy/common/_layout/screen_main_menu.rpym", line 35, in _execute_python_hide
    ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\ui.py", line 297, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 2702, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 3518, in interact_core
    rv = root_widget.event(ev, x, y, 0)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\screen.py", line 714, in event
    rv = self.child.event(ev, x, y, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 962, in event
    return handle_click(self.clicked)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 897, in handle_click
    rv = run(action)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 320, in run
    return action(*args, **kwargs)
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\loadsave.py", line 770, in load
    log.unfreeze(roots, label="_after_load")
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1983, in unfreeze
    self.rollback(0, force=True, label=label, greedy=greedy, on_load=True)
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1815, in rollback
    self.load_failed()
  File "C:\Users\Massawar\Desktop\PaleCarnations-Ch4Up3-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1733, in load_failed
    raise Exception("Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?")
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

Windows-8-6.2.9200
Ren'Py 7.3.5.606
Pale Carnations Ch4Up3
Sun Sep 17 13:34:11 2023

Is the save from a modded version and you're playing unmodded now? Vice versa?

 

[Takkatakka]

I have more issue with the "being boyfriend of Hana" choice. It wasn't very clear what that menu of choices would entail

Well, I would think it would be relatively clear that it closes you of from a lot of content if you take it serious. She stipulates it right away, so it's not like that is a decision that lets you wait for years to see the result.

 

[dolfe67]

Well, I would think it would be relatively clear that it closes you of from a lot of content if you take it serious. She stipulates it right away, so it's not like that is a decision that lets you wait for years to see the result.

I mean it wasn't clear that it was a girlfriend choice IIRC

 

[Takkatakka]

I mean it wasn't clear that it was a girlfriend choice IIRC

Okay, I might misunderstand what you mean, but I think it is about as clear as it can get (or did they patch that in later due to feedback?):

 

[dolfe67]

Okay, I might misunderstand what you mean, but I think it is about as clear as it can get (or did they patch that in later due to feedback?):

View attachment 2937399

Last time I played this part, there wasn't the [Hana GF] and [Fuck buddies] tags I think

 

[Takkatakka]

Last time I played this part, there wasn't the [Hana GF] and [Fuck buddies] tags

Okay, then they changed that. I actually kinda wondered why those tags were there...you were probably not the only one that found it a bit too unclear.

 

[ename144]

Realism is why I think this is a game design issue and not a story problem. As you say, VNs aren't realistic; they have logic that's mostly shared across VNs. Players expect choices in VNs to behave a certain way. Players know there are paths and are trying to get on paths. Players don't have any reason to think that this choice is going to be so odd.

From what I can tell, Pale Carnations is trying to do something different with its story and characters, but it's not trying to reinvent the VN wheel. There's no reason to think PC is going to challenge how choices work.

Veronica's path is already somewhat difficult to get on. Players might have restarted for this update to get the hug (which has immediate feedback), then get rejected on the phone call and give up. There's nothing that tells the player they didn't mess up the path.

My first reaction to the phone call was "Sigh ... I have to restart again", not "That's interesting" or "She's a tough nut to crack" or "Maybe next time." Another issue is that Pale Carnations hides the time stamps from save games, so I tend to forget what my last save was. I try to keep my paths organized on separate save pages but I thought I picked the wrong save.

Was the purpose of this scene to take players out of the story and to question if they were on the right path in the game? If so, then good job. If not, then maybe this didn't hit the mark for the game design. For the story it was good moment though.

You're right there's a potential problem here, but I think I side with Biscardone in thinking this particular case works fine as is. Pale Carnations is normally pretty good about greying out choices we're unable to make, so the fact that the choice to ask Veronica out for drinks is available (and is explicitly linked to befriending her) made it clear that the lack of immediate progress wasn't an error in my playstyle. For me, anyway.

I'd probably be more worried about it if the choice appeared to make negative progress rather than being neutral (e.g. if Veronica hung up in a tiff only to rethink and call the MC back later), but even then I wouldn't rule it out completely. In a game that focuses as heavily on the characters as this one, I think it's reasonable and rewarding to expect the player to make some blind guesses about how a given action will be perceived; it makes the game feel far more immersive than when everything is explicitly spelled out.

The trick is that the game needs to establish a clear framework early on for what the various characters like and how certain actions will be perceived. We need something to calibrate our expectations before we go on to make the truly weighty decisions. I think PC has done a good job of this so far, particularly with Veronica: it's clear she's a very prideful woman who doesn't like being forced into anything, so it makes sense she'd need time to warm up to an idea as radical as a date with her 'handler.'

You described Veronica's path as difficult, but IMHO that's not quite right. Veronica's path is actually very simple, it just requires the MC to act very differently than is expected of him (or a typical AVN protagonist, for that matter): roll your eyes at all the lewd options laid out for you and treat Veronica as a buddy instead. You might need a separate playthrough to do it, but I thought it was pretty clear what it takes to get on her good side. Given that, shrugging and accepting it the first time Veronica spurns an olive branch felt like second nature at this point.

Last time I played this part, there wasn't the [Hana GF] and [Fuck buddies] tags I think

The tags were there from the beginning, or at least from the public release of Chapter 4 Update 1. It's true that Hana doesn't explicitly describe the rules for her GF path until after you select it, but she does so immediately afterwards, and it was exactly what I would have expected from the offer. I don't see much confusion here. Sure, we don't know *exactly* what future options we might be foreclosing with our choice, but that's just the way life works.

 

[Shawnchapp]

The way exhibition 2 got calculated over an entire week not so much.

as someone who plays with the rpys open (cause i don't do "routes" i play all at once Lol i refuse to do replays) gotta be honest there is actual a problem with the calculation you did, it doesn't really take into account of points being tied.. most of the "events" default to one character only (roslina if im remember right) made her have 2 points (last event) by default just for tying with the others, I'm fine with her winning all ties but im not sure others are... Suggestio would be maybe have a random number pick a winner in ties OR
the much better and very big wishful thinking and more work for you suggestion option tie breaker events!



and since im here

Does anyone have an recommendation for games similar to this?

 

[Zero141214]

as someone who plays with the rpys open (cause i don't do "routes" i play all at once Lol i refuse to do replays) gotta be honest there is actual a problem with the calculation you did, it doesn't really take into account of points being tied.. most of the "events" default to one character only (roslina if im remember right) made her have 2 points (last event) by default just for tying with the others, I'm fine with her winning all ties but im not sure others are... Suggestio would be maybe have a random number pick a winner in ties OR
the much better and very big wishful thinking and more work for you suggestion option tie breaker events!



and since im here

Does anyone have an recommendation for games similar to this?

There're many very good games in this web, but similar to this? I don't think so, it's one of a kind.

 

[traplover19]

The mc reminds me of Walter white I'm the sense that he is an ordinary guy falling into a world of crime and is gradually changing atleast as part 3 is concerned
Was that intentional or am I reading too much into this

But say if I'm correct the game seems to set me up as a replacement or successor too the boss

If both are true does that mean eventually we can take control of the club?

I might be speculating allot here but I just want to know am I close with what I got from the plot?

 

[tomhwlam]

Love this game! Keep it up!!

 

[Bill Temple]

The mc reminds me of Walter white I'm the sense that he is an ordinary guy falling into a world of crime and is gradually changing atleast as part 3 is concerned
Was that intentional or am I reading too much into this

But say if I'm correct the game seems to set me up as a replacement or successor too the boss

If both are true does that mean eventually we can take control of the club?

I might be speculating allot here but I just want to know am I close with what I got from the plot?

Now that you mention it... this line did feel a little familiar.

 

[Deleted member 3788582]

Was originally planning not to play this update and instead wait for the Felicia date, but since I have the impulse control of a dog on crack, I gave it a go eventually.
Selfish me, who only plays his blind run which has no Hana/Mina, is obviously quite happy we are back to carnations content. Just being a friend is probably my preferred route, I quite liked the date and the idea of playing wingman. Scenes with Ian were great, too. The talk with Victoria, the mulling over what would it mean if they found out what happened with Darius. Rosalind moving in with Edwin. Overall, a very enjoyable update (for my preferences) and I'm glad I didn't wait to play it haha.
Also, loved Veronica's reactions when she came into the men's bathroom. Little surprised the scene itself was that 'one-sided', but no biggie. Too bad, Brittney is not Léa Seydoux, though.

This feels like cheating, Dolly

 

[Semak34]

The writing is something else, top notch. I love how well written the LIs are, so different yet so alluring. E.g: I'm in love with Veronica even though she's not the most attractive (imo) that's how good the writing is!

 

[Nick198]

I always think that only Mina is the best, and the rest should stand aside