VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[dolfe67]

Plus us men usually having the tendency to side with the girl and villanize the guy in any given situation anyway.

It depends, did you side with Amber Heard and not Johnny Depp?

 

[Randomguy3478]

It depends, did you side with Amber Heard and not Johnny Depp?

Just think of how much "shit it took" for that to happen...

lel

 

[Federok88]

Felicia seems like the vengeful wife who wants to get back at her husband for not getting what she wanted, even though the price of being a gold digger and consciously entering a marriage as a such is that your husband most likely does not love you, does not really care about you much as a person, but only cares about other things. Felicia never loved him, but married him for his money, and that surely showed in her behaviour as well - even though she does of course not tell us that. So its a bit strange to expect from elias to behave towards felicia like she would be the devoted and loving virgin wife of an honest marriage. She fucks around and that makes men cold hearted - no matter if there is an agreement or not. I think she should take accountability of her life choices and stop playing the innocent victim that got treated unjustly. She could have married a poor man that really loved her. But she chose to be a gold digger. And thats how elias treats her.

But Felicia didnt want him to cuddle with her and ease her worries like a loving would do, she wanted what she always expected from him....money and he refused for (until we learn his side of the events) aperently no good reason. I've seen people describe their marriages as a deal where both get something from each other, but paint Felicia as the one that broke the deal. I would argue that Elias broke it first when he showed that he could deny her whatever he wanted for whatever reason he wanted.

All the times Elias upheld his end of the deal were insignificant to the one time he didnt, that was the one time it mattered the most to her.
He made Felicia realise that the conditions of their agreement were no longer on her best interest nor the best she could do, so she did what any ambitious goldigger would do in that situation and searched for a better oportunity.

Be it for love, looks or money, every relationship needs a minimum of respect or resentment will build up until it becomes hatred. If Felicia was loyal but would disrepect him and tried to made him misserable at every turn that would not be something he would like that much, despite still having exclusive acces to beautiful inteligent woman, and might re-consider their agreement.

Felicia is no saint and Elias probably is no the devil but based what we know and have seen about their relationship, i have no reason to feel any kind of sympathy for him. You want a loyal whore? pay the freaking whore, otherwise you might find youself being the joke of the town.

Plus us men usually having the tendency to side with the girl and villanize the guy in any given situation anyway

I think this bias goes both ways, because there is also a tendecy to overcompensate by dismissing any support towards a girl as simping or , in the case of game and anime, waifu loving fanboyism. The best example in my mind is when Fire Emble: Three Houses was released and any fan of Edelgard would be labeled a waifuloving nazi no matter how many essays they write explaining their reasoning. The funny thing about that example was that there are characters like Lelouch that are both male and more beloved than Edelgard despite being more radical, another example would be Askeladd from Vinland saga.

 

[Randomguy3478]

But Felicia didnt want him to cuddle with her and ease her worries like a loving would do, she wanted what she always expected from him....money and he refused for (until we learned his side of the events) aperently no good reason. I've seen people describe their marriages as a deal where both get something from each other, but paint Felicia as the one that broke the deal. I would argue that Elias broke it first when he showed that he could deny her whatever he wanted for whatever reason he wanted.

All the times Elias upheld his end of the deal were insignificant to the one time he didnt, that was the one time it mattered the most to her.
He made Felicia realise that the conditions of their agreement were no longer on her best interest nor the best she could do, so she did what any ambitious goldigger would do in that situation and searched for a better oportunity.

Be it for love, looks or money, every relationship needs a minimum of respect or resentment will build up until it becomes hatred. If Felicia was loyal but would disrepect him and tried to made him misserable at every turn that would not be something he would like that much, despite still having exclusive acces to beautiful inteligent woman, and might re-consider their agreement.

Felicia is no saint and Elias probably is no the devil but based what we know and have seen about their relationship, i have no reason to feel any kind of sympathy for him. You want a loyal whore? pay the freaking whore, otherwise you might find youself being the joke of the town.

That's a fair enough argument. Although I meant "caring about out of the normal special wishes" when talking about a loving relationship, not "cuddling."

If it's the full truth that it's her first wish ever (which I doubt coming from a woman who married a man solely because of his money) and that it really would have been "money not worth mentioning" for elias (which I doubt coming from a woman who has shown in conversations with rosalind that she lives in a bubble regarding money), then I agree that it somewhat breaks their unspoken arrangement. But only partly. She still lives a life in absolute luxery.

If we go down that path though, her fucking around also violates their arrangement as it puts a bad light on elias even if she does it privately and it certainly is not respectful behaviour towards him, which would be expected from a "loyal whore that so far got paid."

I think its impossible to argue about that area because who knows what went on in their marriage, who did what faults first etc. Their marriage is obviously a shitshow and both seem to feel cold-hearted towards eachother.

My main point is, that there is a big difference between their bad deeds regarding how evil they are:

Not caring about the most important thing of your spouse <----> Actively destroying the most important thing of your spouse

Even if elias was the first who ever did wrong in their marriage, it's an evil deed by felicia to participate in something so outrageous in the club, things that are purposefully designed to utterly humiliate her husband in front of his peers. She might not have been expecting those things when she joined, but she still does them now. That's an evil woman for me. Denying an important wish is not even in the same ballpark.

I think this bias goes both ways, because there is also a tendecy to overcompensate by dismissing any support towards a girl as simping or , in the case of game and anime, waifu loving fanboyism. The best example in my mind is when Fire Emble: Three Houses was released and any fan of Edelgard would be labeled a waifuloving nazi no matter how many essays they write explaining their reasoning. The funny thing about that example was that there are characters like Lelouch that are both male and more beloved tha Edelgard despite being more radical.

Yes, we can find contradicting cases and in some areas the dynamic sometimes shifts, but thats rare and usually only happens after a lot. Just remember what absolute ridiculous behaviour of guys it took before the english language even came up with a word that describes behaviour like simping or whiteknighting.

If a guy shoves a girl in a public place, everyone and their mother will rush in to protect her. If a thin weak guy gets shoved by a tall strong guy noone cares. If a guy gets shoved by a girl everyone makes fun of the guy. If a girl gets shoved by a girl everyone hopes for flashing tits-- wait...?!

 

[Randomguy3478]

But Felicia didnt want him to cuddle with her and ease her worries like a loving would do, she wanted what she always expected from him....money and he refused for (until we learn his side of the events) aperently no good reason. I've seen people describe their marriages as a deal where both get something from each other, but paint Felicia as the one that broke the deal. I would argue that Elias broke it first when he showed that he could deny her whatever he wanted for whatever reason he wanted.

All the times Elias upheld his end of the deal were insignificant to the one time he didnt, that was the one time it mattered the most to her.
He made Felicia realise that the conditions of their agreement were no longer on her best interest nor the best she could do, so she did what any ambitious goldigger would do in that situation and searched for a better oportunity.

Be it for love, looks or money, every relationship needs a minimum of respect or resentment will build up until it becomes hatred. If Felicia was loyal but would disrepect him and tried to made him misserable at every turn that would not be something he would like that much, despite still having exclusive acces to beautiful inteligent woman, and might re-consider their agreement.

Felicia is no saint and Elias probably is no the devil but based what we know and have seen about their relationship, i have no reason to feel any kind of sympathy for him. You want a loyal whore? pay the freaking whore, otherwise you might find youself being the joke of the town.


I think this bias goes both ways, because there is also a tendecy to overcompensate by dismissing any support towards a girl as simping or , in the case of game and anime, waifu loving fanboyism. The best example in my mind is when Fire Emble: Three Houses was released and any fan of Edelgard would be labeled a waifuloving nazi no matter how many essays they write explaining their reasoning. The funny thing about that example was that there are characters like Lelouch that are both male and more beloved than Edelgard despite being more radical, another example would be Askeladd from Vinland saga.

If we reversed the roles, this would be an example:

Felicia denies elias wish to stay a trophy wife by stopping to work out and therefor getting fat. In response elias looks for a new trophy wife by bulldozing the art school and building a model agency there.

 

[VinnneV]

I have 2 questions: I've seen this game in pregnancy tags, but now it's gone, is there it or not? If not, are there plans to include it in the future?

 

[Ungawa]

... It's not telling a pregnancy story. It's telling the story of a cathouse.

There's a pregnant woman in the story and they talk about it and there's a BIG kink about a guy that loves him some pregnancy milk so there IS pregnancy but not for the main LIs right now.

 

[MAGO-DAG]

I have 2 questions: I've seen this game in pregnancy tags, but now it's gone, is there it or not? If not, are there plans to include it in the future?

I’m not in the know about future pregnancies. but there is a pregnant woman there. she is there pleasuring someone or is a brothel worker (as I remember)

 

[Federok88]

Even if elias was the first who ever did wrong in their marriage, it's an evil deed by felicia to participate in something so outrageous in the club, things that are purposefully designed to utterly humiliate her husband in front of his peers. She might not have been expecting those things when she joined, but she still does them now. That's an evil woman for me. Denying an important wish is not even in the same ballpark.

i just want to remark that thats an extremely subjective analysis, i think that evil much more than being extremely cruel to someone you hate with a reason(good or bad). I could try paint Elias indiference as a sing of evil since her wife's wish would also affect the young people of her hometown but in all honesty i feel like that would be reaching. Evil is a strong word and personally the worst adjeactive that could pin into either of them is selfish or self-centered but i would definetely not call either of them evil.

If we reversed the roles, this would be an example:

Felicia denies elias wish to stay a trophy wife by stopping to work out and therefor getting fat. In response elias looks for a new trophy wife by bulldozing the art school and building a model agency there.

I mean this with no disresspect intended but i notice a heavy bias in wich your choice of words maximizes the wrong doings of Felicias actions and minimizes the ones of Elias, and that role reversal example doesnt help either.

Why you ask? because how absurd it sounds.

1. losing shape on itself has no emeotional impact for Elias (like her humilliating him by cheating), a better example would being out of shape during a life or career defining event for him. But since getting fat is not inmidiate process one has a hard time that happening withouth Elias noticing.
2. How does getting a trophy wife leads to destroying that expecific school? the scenario so absurd that is hard to take seriously
3. ignores that in both cases the school affects multiple people while getting and cheating only affect Elias, so intentionally buldozing the art school of multiple children is no way a parellel for Felicias excesive cheating or even to Elias refusing to help to save it.

Saying that that absurd hypotetical is an equivalent sitaution is like saying that Felicia is doing things for no emotional reason at all and her actions have no discernible connection with her objectives ( in the same way that having a new trophy wife and destroying a school have no connection to each other)

I want to bring something that i didnt think it was necesary to mention but now i belive otherwise, the aparent (in my opinion) reason of why Felicia hates Elias and revels on his humilliation.

But first lets put into context something, this school was the most important thing for Felicia. For how she describes it was almost a refuge for her. This wasnt just "i want a dress or a car of an island" this was "please i want to save of the most important thing for me to no detriment of your own" and he said no for (as far as we know) no good reason. All her other luxuries pale in comparison to that moment and we know it because she is willing to risk that life of confort to make sure she is never in that situation. Its like if she cheated just once but with his father (if he was alive), it doesnt matter if it is just one time when the damage is inmense.

That explains why she wanted to enter the Carnation but not why she enjoys the humilliation of Ellias, it doenst explain the hatred. There is a reason why i brought the issue of respect, not only because is common sense that respect fosters healthy relationship of any type but because Felicia herself brings it up.

"I had no illusion of the nature of our relationship, but i foolishly thought that after some time, he might have the smallest amount of respect for me. Im... a fuckin' moron "

Felicia begged for that money, something she shouldnt had done in the first place but she did. Even as a trophy Elias must have known that it wasnt something she did lightly. But he didnt care and told her to know her place, he didnt have the minimum of respect for her. The breaking of their contract when it mattered the most and the complete lack of respect for her was what drove Felicia to seek both independence and revenge.


in other words is not

"Not caring about the most important thing of your spouse<----> Actively destroying the most important thing of your spouse"

but

"Refusing to save the most important thing in your spouses life despite her begging and pleading for it and instead scolding her for insisting on it"<----> Actively destroying the most important thing of your spouse"

There are those who think that choosing inaction (when one has the means to act) is a form of action, under that scope there is no difference between refusing to stop the destruction of something and actively destroying it.

 

[VinnneV]

I’m not in the know about future pregnancies. but there is a pregnant woman there. she is there pleasuring someone or is a brothel worker (as I remember)

I understand, so that means there is, it may be in the future...

 

[VinnneV]

Anyway, I've been hearing from people that this game has heavy themes, how heavy can those themes be?

 

[Randomguy3478]

I mean this with no disresspect intended

You are respectful and its a pleasure to discuss with you this topic which I find interesting.

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I want to bring something that i didnt think it was necesary to mention but now i belive otherwise, the aparent (in my opinion) reason of why Felicia hates Elias and revels on his humilliation.

But first lets put into context something, this school was the most important thing for Felicia. For how she describes it was almost a refuge for her. This wasnt just "i want a dress or a car of an island" this was "please i want to save of the most important thing for me to no detriment of your own" and he said no for (as far as we know) no good reason. All her other luxuries pale in comparison to that moment and we know it because she is willing to risk that life of confort to make sure she is never in that situation. Its like if she cheated just once but with his father (if he was alive), it doesnt matter if it is just one time when the damage is inmense.

That explains why she wanted to enter the Carnation but not why she enjoys the humilliation of Ellias, it doenst explain the hatred. There is a reason why i brought the issue of respect, not only because is common sense that respect fosters healthy relationship of any type but because Felicia herself brings it up.

"I had no illusion of the nature of our relationship, but i foolishly thought that after some time, he might have the smallest amount of respect for me. Im... a fuckin' moron "

Felicia begged for that money, something she shouldnt had done in the first place but she did. Even as a trophy Elias must have known that it wasnt something she did lightly. But he didnt care and told her to know her place, he didnt have the minimum of respect for her. The breaking of their contract when it mattered the most and the complete lack of respect for her was what drove Felicia to seek both independence and revenge.

in other words is not

"Not caring about the most important thing of your spouse<----> Actively destroying the most important thing of your spouse"

but

"Refusing to save the most important thing in your spouses life despite her begging and pleading for it and instead scolding her for insisting on it"<----> Actively destroying the most important thing of your spouse"

There are those who think that choosing inaction (when one has the means to act) is a form of action, under that scope there is no difference between refusing to stop the destruction of something and actively destroying it.

Elias just doesn't care about felicia anymore (for reasons we don't know), and because of this he also doesn't care about her wish, no matter how important or not important it may be to her.

But not caring is something entirely different than wanting to see someone suffering.

Walking past a starving kid because you don't care is not the same as taking away its food because you want to see it starving.

Strongly disagree with you on that point.

Even if elias chose inaction because he wants to see felicia suffering it would still not be the same as intentionally acting to get the same result, although it would be way more similar. But that doesn't seem to be the case as felicia would have surely mentioned that in her rage.

 

[Randomguy3478]

Felicia:

"I'm smart."


Also Felicia:

- sacrifices everything in her life to become rich

- marries with a prenup

- risks everything for a sex-game with odds of 1/3

 

[MAGO-DAG]

God... it's been a week since they've been discussing the cuckold Elias and nymphomaniac Felicia...


We need to come up with a name for the couple discussion program: "You're wrong! Elias is kind. " "No, you're wrong! Felicia is innocent. "

 

[Randomguy3478]

bro, just find some space in between to declare who best girl is

or start an intersting topic. if its good i'll join

 

[MAGO-DAG]

bro, just find some space in between to declare who best girl is

or start an intersting topic. if its good i'll join

Best girl is Hana,(At least her understanding and her attitude towards Mc look hot and perfect) there is nothing to discuss here. It's just funny to read all day fights about Elias/Felicia, as if here relationship experts

 

[Ottoeight]

Best girl is Hana, there is nothing to discuss here. It's just funny to read all day fights about Elias/Felicia, as if here relationship experts

Well, this update is about her, so they're talking about her. They're like my father who always agrees with the last person he's speaking with (except me and my mother, of course).

I understand, so that means there is, it may be in the future...

How many times are we supposed to tell you newbies that the story - as the Authors told here - is going to end with the 4th exhibition day (therefore in 10 days)? we'll only have the epilogue(s) after that.

 

[MAGO-DAG]

Well, this update is about her, so they're talking about her. They're like my father who always agrees with the last person he's speaking with (except me and my mother, of course).





How many times are we supposed to tell you newbies that the story - as the Authors told here - is going to end with the 4th exhibition day (therefore in 10 days)? we'll only have the epilogue(s) after that.

Eh... I don't argue that this update is about HER. but such a rush between disputes and excuses is too much and funny

 

[Ottoeight]

Eh... I don't argue that this update is about HER. but such a rush between disputes and excuses is too much and funny

Well, previous update was about Veronica and we had a Veronica flood.

Just think about the bright side: no dudes asking for Victoria content or claiming that Sophia is the best match for Edwin.

 

[TD1900]

Anyway, I've been hearing from people that this game has heavy themes, how heavy can those themes be?

Let's say... a four out of ten, while putting most western AVNs at around a 2?
We are a fairly tame game, but your mileage will vary with the types of story you've exposed yourself to.