Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

nowhere did I use the word amateur

You should revisit the definition of professional:
View attachment 4647690
I already shared, but will again...
The average adult game developer on Patreon that has paid subscribers brings in less than $100 USD per month in subscriptions (that's after patreon's cut but before credit card transaction fees and where applicable VAT and/or taxes). Even after 4 years on Patreon.
Less than 20% earn $1000 USD or more per month.

So, of the 9000 developers on Patreon, 7000 have paid subscribers or are in their first year, about 1200 earn more than $1000 per month. For some countries, that may be high enough for "main occupation" earnings... But for USA, Western Europe, Australia, Canada, Japan, etc.... That's not even minimum wage, let alone living wage, for a full-time main occupation. Less than 1% earn $100,000 or more (after patreon cut, but before transaction fees, VAT, taxes, expenses).

The vast majority are still hobbyists, side gig, and part time enthusiasts. The fact that they are soliciting subscriptions does not make them professionals - there is more to it than that. Really there is more to it than getting paid for it full time, but hey, we're going on minimum definitions here.

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying it provides a liveable wage.

I'm saying the entire concept of being a "hobbyist" whilst being paid for something is wrong. Only in this post-patreon culture is "part-time" somehow used as a synonym for partial work. "Part-time" is a supply-side disinction, no one on the demand side (customer) cares. Granted, most avn devs DO do this as a part time side job, but that's irrelevant to the customer. The customer need only evaluate whether the product or service being produced in the given time is worth their dollar.

No one would take up a side job at mcdonalds working nights after their 9-5 day job, then when they get orders wrong they tell people "oh this is just a side job, making burgers is a hobby."

 

[anne O'nymous]

There are books with unresolved plots and there are books with resolution.
The Harry Potter series resolved short term tension and plot, but left long term tension and conflict open for many books in the series.

Heck, then there are the books of an author all set in the same universe... Such as Stephen King's.

Then there are the Robot, Empire, Foundation novels of Asimov.

The best example is probably Michael Moorcock. He wrote books that resolve around plot resolution, taking place in cycles that resolve around a same setting (Elric, hawkmoon, etc.), and all of this is set in the same universe with, time to time, stories that involve two or more of his Heroes sent out of their time to collaborate in solving the plot.

 

[Count Morado]

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying it provides a liveable wage.

I'm saying the entire concept of being a "hobbyist" whilst being paid for something is wrong. Only in this post-patreon culture is "part-time" somehow used as a synonym for partial work. "Part-time" is a supply-side disinction, no one on the demand side (customer) cares. Granted, most avn devs DO do this as a part time side job, but that's irrelevant to the customer. The customer need only evaluate whether the product or service being produced in the given time is worth their dollar.

No one would take up a side job at mcdonalds working nights after their 9-5 day job, then when they get orders wrong they tell people "oh this is just a side job, making burgers is a hobby."

There are no customers on Patreon except for the rare instance when a creator has a shop connected.

That, again, is another perspective error.

There are no customers.

There are subscribers. For those subscriptions, they get certain benefits listed in the subscription tiers. As long as the developer meets those listed benefits, they have met expectations.

Subscribers are dropping $$$ to support a creator in their vision and efforts. Thats it. The creator could change their vision or efforts any given day. They could stop one project and start another. They could have 10 projects in motion. They could have nothing going on. If a subscriber doesn't like it, they can stop subscribing. That's it. That's all there is.

It's not unlike dropping a buck in a busker's hat, or contributing to public radio and public TV in the USA. On Patreon, just like those examples, the subscriber isn't buying a product. They are showing support for a developer. That's it. That's all there is.

If the player thinks it is something more, they are wrong.

There is no moment in a Patreon subscription that matches McDonald's transaction of money for goods.

Again, the mission of Patreon is:
At Patreon, our mission is to empower creators to live off their art by providing them with the tools and support they need to connect with their fans and build a sustainable income.

Patreon is not the problem.
Developers are not the problem.
It's the players who think that subscribing $4 USD per month means that they are entitled to think the developer is their bitch.

 

[morphnet]

What projects do you think we are talking about?
You can posture all you want but people can make their own judgements on who they think is in the right.

ALL you had to do was click on latest updates page, double check before hitting post reply and you couldn't even handle that...

No. By definition someone's no longer a hobbyist if they're accepting payment for their services. It's the exact opposite of 'amateur'.

To add to what count said, they not payments, they are donations. You can't "PAY" for a free product which many of the games are.

No one would take up a side job at mcdonalds working nights after their 9-5 day job, then when they get orders wrong they tell people "oh this is just a side job, making burgers is a hobby."

Your example does NOT fit the context!

If someone painted after their 9-5 job and went and sold their paintings at a flee market and someone complained they could very well reply " this is just my hobby" AND they would NOT be considered a professional ARTIST!

stick to the context!

 

[DuniX]

Breaking news: Reading an interesting story is satisfying too. At least for anyone with at least an average IQ.

I can read Japanese Visual Novels and Light Novels just fine.
But how can reading a story be satisfying when no progress is being made for hundreds of years? That is if it has an intresting premise and characters in the first place.

 

[Count Morado]

If someone painted after their 9-5 job and went and sold their paintings at a flee market and someone complained they could very well reply " this is just my hobby" AND they would NOT be considered a professional ARTIST!

I almost used an "arts and crafts" fair as a visual, myself.

 

[DuniX]

ALL you had to do was click on latest updates page, double check before hitting post reply and you couldn't even handle that...

If you wanted to make a point why are you presenting japanese games you find on DLsite as an example?

 

[morphnet]

I almost used an "arts and crafts" fair as a visual, myself.

Great minds
it also fits the context and topic and doesn't involve being hired and working for a billion dollar corporation who's stock is sitting at $299.83

If you wanted to make a point why are you presenting japanese games you find on DLsite as an example?

Simple, YOU are not worth the time to edit out the patreon only NON AVN's and the others reading this are intelligent enough to get the point unlike YOU.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

To add to what count said, they not payments, they are donations. You can't "PAY" for a free product which many of the games are.

Your example does NOT fit the context!

If someone painted after their 9-5 job and went and sold their paintings at a flee market and someone complained they could very well reply " this is just my hobby" AND they would NOT be considered a professional ARTIST!

stick to the context!

I feel bad for any potential future customers of yours.

I intend to hold any of mine in much higher esteem. That's all I'll say.

 

[morphnet]

I feel bad for any potential future customers of yours.

I intend to hold any of mine in much higher esteem. That's all I'll say.

Way to type something without saying anything at all good job you

 

[morphnet]

You are writing this as if it's a good thing. Any game that bases its development progression FULLy on monthly polls is doomed to fail. Maybe not financially.

Not sure how you think what you quoted has anything to do with polls?

" The subscription model gives fans many options while allowing them to be in FULL control of what they do with their own money. "

The options given by a subscription model include but are NOT limited to,

Subscribe until the person feels they've supported the dev enough for that particular project
Subscribe as the person feels the dev deserves (supporting dev through all projects)
Subscribe after testing each update and cancel when they feel the current update show the dev slacking and re sub when they feel the dev is back on track
Subscribe but drop or raise tiers as they feel the dev's work in improving or dropping
Subscribe SOLELY for a certain benefit or poll then cancel / repeat as they wish
Subscribe for other content the dev might be making
Subscribe ONLY when the dev needs new equipment / really needs funds then cancel when things are ok again
and let's not forget don't subscribe at all.

These are just some of the examples of the options open to fans thanks to a subscription service, unlike a donate once or buy the finished product.

This also means that at no point can fans / patreons be taken advantage of IF they act responsibly.

Q: What about when dev's make huge or later to be found misleading promises?
A: If acting responsibly, the fan can hold off on subbing until the promises are fulfilled and then sub

Q: What about dev's that take a long time to update?
A: Anyone with a subscription service can cancel their sub anytime, unlike a donation

Q: What about dev's member X knows is milking?
A: It is up to each ADULT person to decide how, where and when to spend their own money, if member x "FEELS" that the dev is milking, member X is welcome to cancel their sub IF they are subbing at all BUT member X has NO RIGHT to decide for others what they should think or how they should spend their OWN money.

Now if you would like to comment and discuss polls you are welcome to quote the section of my reply that dealt with polls but please quote the right section to maintain context.

 

[morphnet]

Without [Daz3D, Honey Select, Koikatsu, Ren'Py, and RPGM], there would be no western adult games except for those weird Flash games.

You mean apart for sex villa later know as k17 or ANY of the strip pokers from the old artworx to the online ones or the (admittedly shoddy) interactive ones or the dating ones and the MANY others?

The overall decline in video game quality started when physical CDs were replaced by digital stores, allowing games to be purchased online and PATCHED later.

This is partially true and this did play a bigger role than many of the other reasons.

Maybe one of the biggest examples is Cyberpunk 2077. Remember how buggy it was at launch? Even after multiple patches totaling tens of gigabytes, it was still a disaster.

Just a note that this is a bad example because while there were many reasons for there being so many bugs, the main culprit was that they switched the core game play. A much better example would be battlefield 2042

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

The overall decline in video game quality started when physical CDs were replaced by digital stores, allowing games to be purchased online and PATCHED later. This gave big companies and small developers the opportunity to take advantage of the system, releasing unfinished or buggy games. Unless they face financial backlash from players, they have no reason to change.

Spoiler: kinda offtopic

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More relevant to your recent comment, surprised we don't see more light-hearted adult adventure games in the style of "Leisure Suit Larry" nowadays. There WAS a market niche for western adult games prior to the 100% digital media age, but unless I'm missing something there's nothing in this vein nowadays.

Closest I've seen is something like House Party.

 

[morphnet]

Again, you are writing this as if it's a good thing.

As I said you quoted one section of my reply while discussing a different section. If you want to discuss a point quote the correct section.

What should Patreon supporters do to "act responsibly" when a developer’s PC crashes and all assets are lost

Subscribe ONLY when the dev needs new equipment / really needs funds then cancel when things are ok again

or they can up their sub to a higher tier
or they can cancel their sub until the project is up and running again
or they can sub for a time they feel is helpful then cancel and wait
or they can just continue subbing and helping the dev out

or or or

The options are ALL there, I will NOT personally tell others what they can do with their money or how to spend it.

they suddenly find Jesus

use ONLY common or has occurred multiple times examples... edge hugging extreme examples are for those grasping for reasons...

or—more interestingly—they refuse to release a new update because people on piracy forums are criticizing them for not updating in two years?

use ONLY common or has occurred multiple times examples... edge hugging extreme examples are for those grasping for reasons...

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7858 paid creators on patreon, how many in ALL these years found jesus and allowed it to affect their project?
7858 paid creators on patreon, how many in ALL these years have refused to release a new update because people on piracy forums are criticizing them for not updating in two years?

Writing about "rare" possibilities and avoiding how things really work doesn’t help the discussion.

I agree so why is that exactly what you and others are doing?

We all know the real-life scenarios.

Apparently not!

Are you going to count

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too? If you're bringing up all these stuffs, you're missing a real banger.

Are you forgetting some of the first games (indie / hobby) were made using K17 ?

Actually, that's fully true. The main reason video games are slightly better now than in the past is because tools have evolved.

The overall decline in video game quality started when physical CDs were replaced by digital stores, allowing games to be purchased online and PATCHED later.

I can come back when you've finished arguing with yourself and gotten your point straight if you like?

This also explains why western adult games are stagnating in quality. Unless tools like [Daz3D, Honey Select, Koikatsu, Ren'Py, and RPGM] improve

Daz3D design program NOT engine using 3rd party assets with the ability to out put high quality renders / animations
Honey Select a GAME with a studio tool NEVER designed or intended for use in making other games
Koikatsu a GAME with a studio tool NEVER designed or intended for use in making other games
Ren'Py an engine being updated regulary and fully capable of producing a high quality game
RPGM an engine with many different versions, a rich and helpful support community and capable of producing a good quality rpg game

You are mixing graphics and games and game engines all together, with two of them never being designed to be used in the making of games and the others are all good tools.

You are also WAAAAY off-topic....

or new tools, like AI, emerge—without diving into whether AI is good or bad—nothing will really change in terms of overall quality.

 

[tanstaafl]

Excuse-me?

Perhaps have you heard about that small writer, Alexandre Dumas (son). He wrote books that some knows, like "The Three Musketeers" by example. And it happen that most of them were first published as chapter in the press. And he's far to be the only one, while it's far to be limited to those old times.
Jules Verne too had some books published that way before they were released as full books. H. P. Lovecraft had more than one story, including full books, firstly published in Weird Tales, magazine that also published many of Robert E. Howard's "Conan" stories.
During the Sci-Fi Golden Age, John W. Campbell, editor of Astounding Science-Fiction, discovered and encouraged most of the best known writers from that time, like Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov or Robert A. Heinlein by example. All had some of their first books released in chapter in his magazine. And it was far to be the only magazine dedicated to Science-Fiction, or to the publication of books in chapter for writers in search for a first publisher.
I mean, Pulp magazines whole business model is nothing more than this, publishing stories in parts, chapters for the longest ones, to ensure that the public will want to buy the next issue.

And this is without talking about how many manga are published that way in Japan.

I hate being wrong and then correcting myself in a few posts but then people keep bringing up that bit where I was wrong.

I will say this, after more research I'm finding a lot of fodder for both sides of this argument. The biggest on the "for" side of the current state of how games are published piecemeal would be instances like this:

"Starship Troopers" (The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, 1959)

• Serialized before its novel release.

I think the real issue may not be the slow feed of content, but the general inconsistency of it all.

 

[anne O'nymous]

You can posture all you want but people can make their own judgements on who they think is in the right.

Well, "I am talking about the AVNs, the Topic of this fucking Thread" did you said, well, let's see...


Title of the thread: "Patreon is the worst enemy of all adult game players"

Hmm, I see no mention of AVNs here. But, well, it's just the title, perhaps that the thread opening is more explicit:
"Why can't we just buy finished products instead of monthly subscription model?
This is really bad.

We always have unfinished trashes and that's all."

Oh, well, there's no mention of AVNs here too.

I don't know if you're posting in the wrong thread, or if you lack the most basic reading abilities and totally misunderstood this thread's topic, but there's nothing that can make "people" think that you're the one who's right.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I hate being wrong and then correcting myself in a few posts but then people keep bringing up that bit where I was wrong.

There's no interest to bring the parts where you're right, people risk to understand that I'm not the only smart guy around there

 

[morphnet]

Daz3D is a posing program. Using morphs doesn’t really make it a "design" program. And, most western adult game developers use it for graphic creation.

It is also used to setup background, interiors, exteriors, props etc. Simplifying it down to a simple posing program is incorrect.

Honey Select and Koikatsu are games, and again, they are used by many western adult game developers to create their graphics. I’m not forcing anyone to use them; it’s simply how they mostly create graphics.

Unless tools like [Daz3D, Honey Select, Koikatsu, Ren'Py, and RPGM] improve

Expecting a games company to "improve" a part of their game so others can use it in a way never intended is ridiculous.

Ren'Py is just a visual novel engine and not that capable or comfy if you compare with more general use game engines. Good for devs who don't want to learn code and create simple visual novels though, surely you can do a few more tricks more python knowledge.

Ren'Py is just a visual novel engine and isn’t as capable or comfortable compared to more general-purpose game engines. It’s great for developers who don’t want to learn coding and want to create simple visual novels. Of course, with more Python knowledge, you can do a few extra things. But it's just that.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with the topic.

Judging by your definition and mine of these games/programs, I’m not the one mixing up what’s used for what. These are the programs used by western adult game developers.

Then where are all the programs used to make sprites? where is HS or the programs used in making 2d art?

and again NONE of this has anything to do with the topic of complete vs monthly subscription model or patreons role.

Based on your previous post, it seems you're good at taking screenshots—just take a screenshot of the download section on the last page, and let’s analyze what they are using for their creations. Or just you do that by your own, I am bored.

in case you missed it AGAIN

and again NONE of this has anything to do with the topic of complete vs monthly subscription model or patreons role.

 

[morphnet]

I hate being wrong and then correcting myself in a few posts but then people keep bringing up that bit where I was wrong.

I've done this to you in a couple of threads and I did it to you in this one. I'm 100% at fault here and I should have slowed down and read through everything before replying. I'm sorry and promise to try not do it in the future.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Daz3D is a posing program.

Daz Studio is a composing and rendering software.

Using morphs and posing figures is only one small part of what it can do.

You can fully edit the surface to change it's result, making what was wood looks like metal by example. You can (part manually) deform meshes. You can create then combine primitive to build new structures. And those are just three of the most used (but not used enough I agree) capabilities offered by Daz Studio.

Ren'Py is just a visual novel engine and isn’t as capable or comfortable compared to more general-purpose game engines. It’s great for developers who don’t want to learn coding and want to create simple visual novels. Of course, with more Python knowledge, you can do a few extra things. But it's just that.

Ah, if only Ren'Py was able to use four opaque static images, and turn them into a transparent hologram with randomized deformation effect, all this in real time...

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Or if it was able to send one back to the 80's demo scene, in real time

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But let's be honest, those are actually just tricks. What people want is for it to be able to handle a RPG maker-like map system, with real time path computation...

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Or to be able to have a dress up system.

These are the programs used by western adult game developers.

Winterfire isn't a western developer, ICSTOR never made RPG Maker games, Lurking Hedgehog haven't switched from 3D to 2D, and so on.

[...] just take a screenshot of the download section on the last page, and let’s analyze what they are using for their creations. Or just you do that by your own, I am bored.

There's 20.990 games available, among then 13.190 aren't made with Ren'Py, while there's 13.193 don't rely on 3D CGs. And there's only 5.246 games made with Ren'Py and relying on 3D CGs.

I would have swore that there were more than 25% games coming from Western developers. Or perhaps is it that you just said bullshit, in hope that no one would notice it...