- Thread starter N2TheFire
- Start date
Some impressions / constructive criticisms:
Too many characters and not enough variety / role for them. Examples include the following.
Too many white / silver haired characters, too many near-identical demons, converted enemies that just sit around and do nothing except split the same character role between them and reduce the screen time and relevance of each.
What story purpose does Cassie perform that Morgan doesn't do better? One Vegeta-type character is good, five near identical versions just dilutes them. And you compound this by bringing in the other Morganna so now there's two of them when there's already not enough focus to go around and too much overlap? And that's not even getting into how hard it can be to keep track of them.
First thing I'd do is send the original human Morgana to Karen (and age her up some so she's visually distinct and there's not this creepy impression that MC's mom was banging a chick barely older than her own son). Let them resume their relationship, leave her human and place her in the role of a mostly background supporting character. Have MC view her as a second mom, and everyone be happy that Karen has a companion and lover of her own and that their tragic story has a happy outcome.
Since Cassie overlaps with demon Morgan (on that note, if you're going to have both Morgans can one of them get a name change please?!), I'd alter Cassie's model to be visually distinct, make her a lesser demoness and make her the girlfriend / subordinate to demon Morgan. Reduce her role to minor supporting / background character and give any and all plot that would have gone to her to demon Morgan.
Samantha the succubus is different enough to potentially be a fun standalone harem member, but you've already decided on writing her out so never mind on that front.
Camilla the sister has a stunning design and hits the "big titty goth GF" fantasy bullseye but being the sister she's off-limits and that's a waste. Her former subordinate (I'm starting to forget names here) should have gotten that more appealing character design and role as "dark writer turned good". Turning her into "speedster kitty" undermined her entire appeal and still left the goth yummy role filled by a character we can't have. How to fix this without a rewrite, I don't know but it's a big missed opportunity.
If I was doing a rewrite, by the way, I'd make Camilla's dream form a tall, Morticia Adams sort of figure draped in black and shadows, with glowing eyes all you see of her face aside from the occasional glimpse of wicked fangs, and her human form the plainer goth that you used for the other dark writer --basically, what she wants to look like and what she really looks like. And given her trauma, that dream form is dark, mysterious, ethereal, and untouchable. It's a form intended to intimidate but also to keep everyone at a distance and thus protect herself emotionally. Have her revealing her human form a sign that she's healed enough to let down her defenses, and state that she's going to build a new dream form in her new world which won't be so defensive and would allow people close to her again.
Dark writer's sister the green invisi-kitty has the sole personality trait of being a nympho, which would have been better for the role of a succubus aka Samantha but she's written out and well, we now have a redundant character who's just another sexy kitty who wants the MC's cock just like everyone else.
Then there are the OTHER characters who got pulled in like the pink-haired tsundere, big titty lawyer, big titty college student, the nurse, alien chick, etc who just manage to make the already sprawling cast even more unwieldy.
The fact that I got this far without even touching the four primary neko cast members proves that the scope of this cast is way out of control. The MC splitting his attention between those four as well as former demon enemy and former dark writer enemy (as my above suggested cast paring would leave you with) is still a lot to juggle. And that's not even counting Fade and Shade who should have stayed fairies so they didn't add to the overwhelming mass of haremettes I can barely remember all of! You gotta focus this cast down and assign some of these roles to existing core castmembers or relegate the extrras to minor supporting character status. It's just way too much of a good thing.
Don't let the people who are way too oversensitive about NTR prevent you from allowing any character no matter how minor from having another relationship --especially when that relationship is lesbian and willing to play with MC from time to time. L living breathing world means characters who have their own lives too, not just the core who are devoted to MC. Right now you have a King and his court and no citizens! The world feels simultaneously bloated and empty as a result of your unwillingness to tier characters in order of importance and put some down the list outside the MC's core circle.
*sighs, looks back up at wall of text* Ok this issue turned out to be so major I have no room for other concerns without turning this into a novel. They are the most serious, though, and fortunately they don't make the game / story bad they just keep a good story from being great like it has the potential to be.
Too many characters and not enough variety / role for them. Examples include the following.
Too many white / silver haired characters, too many near-identical demons, converted enemies that just sit around and do nothing except split the same character role between them and reduce the screen time and relevance of each.
What story purpose does Cassie perform that Morgan doesn't do better? One Vegeta-type character is good, five near identical versions just dilutes them. And you compound this by bringing in the other Morganna so now there's two of them when there's already not enough focus to go around and too much overlap? And that's not even getting into how hard it can be to keep track of them.
First thing I'd do is send the original human Morgana to Karen (and age her up some so she's visually distinct and there's not this creepy impression that MC's mom was banging a chick barely older than her own son). Let them resume their relationship, leave her human and place her in the role of a mostly background supporting character. Have MC view her as a second mom, and everyone be happy that Karen has a companion and lover of her own and that their tragic story has a happy outcome.
Since Cassie overlaps with demon Morgan (on that note, if you're going to have both Morgans can one of them get a name change please?!), I'd alter Cassie's model to be visually distinct, make her a lesser demoness and make her the girlfriend / subordinate to demon Morgan. Reduce her role to minor supporting / background character and give any and all plot that would have gone to her to demon Morgan.
Samantha the succubus is different enough to potentially be a fun standalone harem member, but you've already decided on writing her out so never mind on that front.
Camilla the sister has a stunning design and hits the "big titty goth GF" fantasy bullseye but being the sister she's off-limits and that's a waste. Her former subordinate (I'm starting to forget names here) should have gotten that more appealing character design and role as "dark writer turned good". Turning her into "speedster kitty" undermined her entire appeal and still left the goth yummy role filled by a character we can't have. How to fix this without a rewrite, I don't know but it's a big missed opportunity.
If I was doing a rewrite, by the way, I'd make Camilla's dream form a tall, Morticia Adams sort of figure draped in black and shadows, with glowing eyes all you see of her face aside from the occasional glimpse of wicked fangs, and her human form the plainer goth that you used for the other dark writer --basically, what she wants to look like and what she really looks like. And given her trauma, that dream form is dark, mysterious, ethereal, and untouchable. It's a form intended to intimidate but also to keep everyone at a distance and thus protect herself emotionally. Have her revealing her human form a sign that she's healed enough to let down her defenses, and state that she's going to build a new dream form in her new world which won't be so defensive and would allow people close to her again.
Dark writer's sister the green invisi-kitty has the sole personality trait of being a nympho, which would have been better for the role of a succubus aka Samantha but she's written out and well, we now have a redundant character who's just another sexy kitty who wants the MC's cock just like everyone else.
Then there are the OTHER characters who got pulled in like the pink-haired tsundere, big titty lawyer, big titty college student, the nurse, alien chick, etc who just manage to make the already sprawling cast even more unwieldy.
The fact that I got this far without even touching the four primary neko cast members proves that the scope of this cast is way out of control. The MC splitting his attention between those four as well as former demon enemy and former dark writer enemy (as my above suggested cast paring would leave you with) is still a lot to juggle. And that's not even counting Fade and Shade who should have stayed fairies so they didn't add to the overwhelming mass of haremettes I can barely remember all of! You gotta focus this cast down and assign some of these roles to existing core castmembers or relegate the extrras to minor supporting character status. It's just way too much of a good thing.
Don't let the people who are way too oversensitive about NTR prevent you from allowing any character no matter how minor from having another relationship --especially when that relationship is lesbian and willing to play with MC from time to time. L living breathing world means characters who have their own lives too, not just the core who are devoted to MC. Right now you have a King and his court and no citizens! The world feels simultaneously bloated and empty as a result of your unwillingness to tier characters in order of importance and put some down the list outside the MC's core circle.
*sighs, looks back up at wall of text* Ok this issue turned out to be so major I have no room for other concerns without turning this into a novel. They are the most serious, though, and fortunately they don't make the game / story bad they just keep a good story from being great like it has the potential to be.
- Dec 28, 2019
- 690
- 3,351
LOL No worries on the wall of text... just look for my posts in this thread and you'll see much longer ones along the way. In fact, read on... I'll show you a wall of text
Yes, EVERYTHING you said here is completely true. Most people come along and find Serenity and will leave this kind of review and that's fine. But if you weren't around from the beginning, then you probably didn't know this was my first VN... Like... I literally was learning Renpy and HS2 WHILE developing it. In hindsight, there are a LOT of things I wish I'd given a good rethink. After the 10th day in the game, I didn't even realize the mess I was making. You see, its like digging a hole. You just get to working without paying attention to how deep you've gotten and before you know it, holy shit! I can't even see the sun anymore!
In all honesty, I don't really want to rewrite Serenity. I do want to go back and redo some more early images (and rewrite days 4 and 5 - yuck). But the issue of so many characters isn't as simple to 'redo' as you think. So that's why I decided that in Chapter 2, we would start spending more time with each of the characters we have. You kept mentioning that I wrote out Samantha and Camilla. I'm not sure why you think that. Cammie is going to start her writing in her little world, and we'll be going there later to see her, Samantha, and Cassie will be going there also, along with Shade of course.
As for Camilla... yeah. She really came out great. I honestly couldn't believe when I finished with her that I had done that. That ended up being a curse because now everyone wants her and I don't do incest and here we are LMFAO. Like I said, you go doing this stuff and at the time of writing and developing it all, it just didn't occur to me the situation I was creating. I get it... people read this and think "what the hell was the dev thinking??" In truth, it is definitely not so easy to do this and get it right. And there is also the issue of doing this alone; solo (no team).
Developing a game alone is a ton of work because you have to do everything yourself - write the story, condense it to work as a VN, come up with characters and names for them, create the characters graphically. Illustrate the scenes, pose the characters and give them expressions through each line in the dialog so you're not staring at one fucking static image for 6 lines of dialog (I hate that). Then music, creating animations, the coding itself. And outside of all that, real life, my actual job (I don't make a lot of money from doing this - at least not right now, so I do still have a full time job). With that in mind... No, I don't want to rewrite Serenity. Through this entire process of learning, being criticized (some were downright ugly and some still are), there have been many ups and downs. But I've always been as transparent about everything as I possibly can. I know it isn't perfect. And I know it can be better. But I'd rather press on - finish Chapter 2 and that will be the end of Serenity.
At that point (when Serenity is a done deal), I'll focus my attention on Last Human, and a possible offshoot of Serenity featuring Camilla, Shade, Samantha, and Cassie. (Maybe. I'll have to see if people would want that first. Maybe write something up and have people vote on it). I have another story on the back burner called Girl Trouble that I've considered making into an avn. There is a lot I could do. For now, Serenity Chapter 2 and Last Human are my main focus. I have a ton of content and ideas for LH, and a lot of stuff already written for it. The characters you've seen already in LH are the only main LI's you're going to see. There will of course be some 'side girls' but they will not be the focus. Really, LH is just a fun sci-fi romp first... and 'sex' game later. Star Trek with more sexiness if you will, perhaps not to be taken as serious as Star Trek. And of course, with Nekos.
Like I always tell people, I do appreciate feedback. But really if you just skim through the reviews for Serenity, most of what you said has been mentioned already. It isn't like something I try to deny or defend anymore. It just 'IS'. And outside of redoing the few days I want to redo (because I hate them), it will pretty much remain the same. I didn't create Serenity to be my magnum opus or anything. It was an exercise in learning literally everything about making a straight-forward, kinetic VN. And, for what it's worth, Serenity has quite a following with a lot of very silent fans. There is something about the game that certain people are enchanted by. I'm no master novelist or experienced author (most avn developers I know are just like me, not pro writers) but we do our best to make something we think WE would like... and hopefully some of you like it too... even with its flaws. That is what Serenity is. A vision from my mind written, illustrated, and performed with flaws unflinchingly left in place.
Serenity might have too many characters for some people, but jeez... have you seen some other games out there? Wow, I saw one with at least 50 girls! Having completed my first AVN and learning through that process, I can see now how easy it is to lose focus and feel like you need more girls while trying to make more people 'happy'. It's the lesson I learned and so it will remain that way because of that. As I keep doing this, hopefully I keep learning and writing better, and getting better at the art, music, and building characters. Before I started doing this, I thought it was an easy job writing a story and making a vn. There is NOTHING easy about this! LOL! So why do I keep going? I guess because I love doing it. And as long as other people love what I'm doing, then I'll probably keep at it.
Well, my wall of text might not have you beat. But there's my reply.
I did see that this was your first project, and that earns a lot of understanding. You say we can't know how tough it is to do everything solo, well I do know --because I attempted that challenge and failed. The fact that you got something functional and published and playable means you basically climbed a mountain that I myself never conquered. Big respect for that.
I must admit I didn't read past the first hundred posts or so in to the thread nor the reviews so I wasn't aware that so many of my criticisms have been made already. I do hope my attempt at offering positive suggestions rather than simply negatives makes my feedback of some use to you at least.
Here's the thing, though. You say you don't want to rewrite Serenity but I honestly think that's a mistake. You've got something good here, some great character designs, some solid concepts, some compelling characters, etc and that shouldn't be tossed aside. I know you're thinking it's a lot of work, and it is, but what I see is potential you're about to let slip away. You say the development was a learning process, and that's great --you've clearly accomplished that mission. What you ended up with is a mix of good and bad and meh and an eye towards knowing which is which.
THAT IS WHAT FIRST DRAFTS ARE ALL ABOUT.
I don't know if you have ever read the early drafts of the original Star Wars movie script, but... holy effing crap is that thing a clusterfuck of epic proportions. Sprawling, unfocused, often nonsensical, with probably ten bad ideas and twenty more mediocre ones at best for every good one, and probably 10% of the total made it into the final shooting script. Not even all of that made it to the final theatrical cut.
Lucas recognized that it was a big sloppy bucket of mostly garbage but he didn't give up. He also wisely recognized that there was something of worth in there and so he rewrote. And rewrote again. With each pass he cleared more of the clutter, more of the bad ideas, made the good ideas better, and brought the whole thing into focus. The final result of that process is, of course, legendary. And it started out vastly worse than your own first effort here.
What I'm saying is you have a diamond in the rough here and it would be a damned shame to toss it out. Do you know how much of an uncut diamond has to be removed to get to the sparkling gem within? Do you know how much work that takes? It's not easy that's for damned sure. But if you've got a gem in your hands, and I think you do, it will end up worth it.
Think it over, and if you want some help let me know.
- Dec 28, 2019
- 690
- 3,351
Well, that is quite a strongly worded response about Serenity. It seems like you're quite passionate about it. Hmm... I said I didn't 'want to' rewrite it. But who knows? The funny thing about my creative mind is that I am constantly changing it. I love to create. In gaming, I always gravitate towards games that allow me to be creative. That's why doing this is the perfect hobby for me, if you will... The perfect occupation one day, maybe. It takes a long time to get something good enough in this type of game that you can actually live off the income without a regular job. I'm not there yet, but perhaps one day?
That said... in response to your positive criticism, of course I appreciate and use that. In the beginning, I remember when I did my second release of Serenity... like version 0.02 or something (2 or 3 in-game days). It was horrible. Graphically, it was so bad and I knew it was. I actually went back some time ago and redid the horrible graphics. But on that release, I actually received a couple of DM's on this very site basically telling me to give it up. I was like "wow". Looking back, I really let that stuff hurt me. I took it to heart. I was new to this and didn't know any better. I almost did quit. I was in a rough place during that time IRL as well. So that didn't help. Somehow, I pressed on anyway though. I got some help from another dev (Cryoxxx) who was willing to teach me a few things and give me some great tips. But the greatest tip I ever got was from MrDots I believe. He said to read reviews and comments in a positive light, even if they're negative... And don't stress the rude comments, just ignore them and do what you want to do.
I'm a long way from that person today, thankfully. I know where I stand. Even if I do still get slightly defensive with some replies, I realize I'm doing it and stop. I've always said that I love criticism, good or bad, as long as the person is not being a fucking dick about it - because a lot of people are simply that >> A DICK about it. But you were not. If anything, you've shown passion about this thing, and you see what it might be capable of. I admit that I have actually outlined changes. I have things noted. The changes I have outlined would drop quite a few of the girls. Make Camilla NOT a sister to the MC, and quite a few other changes. It would pretty much be a different story, kind of. The drama drawn out a bit longer, not solved so quickly. Girls' characters more fleshed out. I spent several days about one year ago just going through all the reviews and comments I could find and did that outline based on that and thought: "Well, I would basically have to start this thing over again".
I'll fill you in on something... all of you actually since we're talking about this:
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content.
Log in or register now.
All things considered; you did succeed in making me think about it some more. Anything new would be a long way from now though. But we'll see where things stand later in the year. I need to finish Serenity C2 first. And also see how Last Human goes. I have quite a few story ideas sitting around. But Serenity being my 'bread and butter' should probably be left on the table also. I agree that it does have potential to be something pretty great.
So many great ideas, so little time to make them all happen. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.
- Apr 24, 2020
- 6,699
- 10,947
I'm in the same boat. I'm learning Ren'Py and DAZ.
Seeing that frustration among other new developers is why I decided to put my Magnum Opera on the back burner in favor of some stand-alone stories. I figure if they're rough, if I show improvement over the months and years, I will be less burdened by the desire go go back.
One of the examples I like to cite is when you have text like, "We can't do this, I'm your LANDLADY!" it's obvious that the story was intended to be an incest one. I feel that not every story has to be incest driven. So far, none of my projects have even a hint of incest. One will probably involve generational relationships, along the lines of mentor/student, but that's it. Of course, I'm tempted to make the MC's mother very sexy just to mess with people.
I know because of the modern standard, I will have to develop my animation skill quickly. I have the "advantage" of having to take an early disability retirement, so once I get up to speed, I can devote all the time I want (other than kids and grandkids).
One of my biggest challenges in writing is to create meaningful branches in order to avoid making kinetic novels.
Speaking of Star Trek, at some point, I'll probably refer to some old ST Fanfic I'd done years before. I'm also inspired to do my own neko project, in part inspired by some of the aspects of Victoria 9. One of my problems is that some of my ideas are better suited to VNs rather than AVNs. I'm not sure what kind of market there is for SFW VNs. For now, I will continue to add the adult content.
It is an important lesson/aspect of this work. like fanfic communities, these seem to do best when they are labors of love. I wish you many years of passion in this field. As an old song said,
But it's all right now
I learned my lesson well
You see, you can't please everyone
So you got to please yourself
- Sep 26, 2021
- 214
- 217
I've wondered for a while if Patreon is going to catch on to what landladies and roommates really mean and crack down on them. Seems like a risky gambit to try to play the plausible deniability card with them, y'know? Especially if hundreds of devs are using this same loophole in an obvious attempt to skirt Patreon's rules.
Or maybe Patreon already does know and plausible deniability actually is good enough. Who knows?
- Dec 28, 2019
- 690
- 3,351
I've often wondered that myself. I think they do know what it means. And I think the reason they don't take action against those is because the actual words used don't really mean anything. Legally speaking, it isn't 'incest' talk at all without the obvious "Mom" or "Sis / Bro". However, patreon has the right to remove any content they deem unfit for their site - it's in the agreement when you sign up. So technically, they could remove that content.
My personal opinion on incest games has been pretty clear since I started doing this. It isn't my thing. I don't get off on the thought of getting it on with my family members. Plus, there is literally TONS of incest games already... I'd have nothing remotely interesting to bring to that table. That is my first reason for refusing to do incest (not any fear of patreon finding out).
- Apr 24, 2020
- 6,699
- 10,947
According to some sources, it's not Patreon, it's PayPal. One reason Subscribestar doesn't use PayPal.
- Dec 28, 2019
- 690
- 3,351
- Sep 26, 2021
- 214
- 217
- Apr 24, 2020
- 6,699
- 10,947
It is my understanding that this was why Craigslist shut down their adult ads.
Good to know you're keeping your options open. I meant it if you ever wanna pick my brain for some input and suggestions, I don't mind helping out (within reason, of course). Keep the faith, you've got skill and a good thing going here. I'll be following the progress and rooting for your success.[snip]
So many great ideas, so little time to make them all happen. It will be interesting to see how this all turns out.
- Sep 27, 2017
- 2,820
- 3,547
Its been a while, since part 1 exactly...the kinetic novel tag hid the new version from me.
Looks like you experimented with skin textures, but you should soften them a bit. The scene morgana jumps you looks like her skin is rough enough to emery old paint from a wall...and lilis chest looks like a very old oil painting in her date outfit.
Looks like you experimented with skin textures, but you should soften them a bit. The scene morgana jumps you looks like her skin is rough enough to emery old paint from a wall...and lilis chest looks like a very old oil painting in her date outfit.
- Dec 28, 2019
- 690
- 3,351
On Morgana's skin... I absolutely hate that particular texture. Such a pain in the ass. It looks great outside of the knees and elbows. I realized after the update that I forgot to change her skin tex and make some adjustments on it (like I have to do with her clone, Morgan and a few others that use that skin).
As for Lili, I guess I don't see the issue with her. Actually, that character was from Oppai Odyssey (Cryoxxx). I didn't change much of what he had (we use a lot of the same textures, or at least we used to).
- Sep 26, 2021
- 214
- 217
- Apr 24, 2020
- 6,699
- 10,947
- Dec 28, 2019
- 690
- 3,351
- Sep 26, 2021
- 214
- 217