VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.986] [WeirdWorld]

[vogelbeest]

If your point is that he needs to be conscious to revert change, then you are probably correct, but we already established that yesterday. Why are you bringing this up? You were talking about needing skill/specific set of powers just a second ago.

Yeah, and you just kept saying it's all a matter of power, which he has more then any other level 3 superhuman..
Conscious he needs the willpower, subconscious regeneration, healing and even knowledge of transformation would help returning to his original state... Maybe it's even possible his monster part does it for him, much like the eye breaks Jake's control on MC. But so far he's a tree that's been burned down and resurrected at least once and possibly even several times.

Duncan been a tree for roughly 6 days now.... If it's all that easy he would have returned to his original shape by now...
So far Ella's transformation of Duncan doesn't seem so pointless as she told us....

 

[Fanvor]

Yeah, and you just kept saying it's all a matter of power, which he has more then any other level 3 superhuman..
Conscious he needs the willpower, subconscious regeneration, healing and even knowledge of transformation would help returning to his original state... Maybe it's even possible his monster part does it for him, much like the eye breaks Jake's control on MC. But so far he's a tree that's been burned down and resurrected at least once and possibly even several times.

Duncan been a tree for roughly 6 days now.... If it's all that easy he would have returned to his original shape by now...
So far Ella's transformation of Duncan doesn't seem so pointless as she told us....

1 I kept saying that Duncan has the necessary amount of skill and power because you and people like you kept saying that he didn't.
2 It has not been roughly 6 days, the timeline is:
The battle ends - unknown amount of time passed during which Mc goes on hunts/television every second day - gameplay loop starts, which was roughly 6 days.
All in all it means Duncan might have been a tree for a month now.

So far Ella's transformation of Duncan doesn't seem so pointless as she told us....

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

[bloodaxis]

1 I kept saying that Duncan has the necessary amount of skill and power because you and people like you kept saying that he didn't.

Skill is very possible, power is a maybe imo. Ella has repeatedly been shown to punch above her weightclass as well, she didn't even lose out too badly against 2 level 5s when she was level 4, and she was giving Nico/Gillibrand/randomchick a run for their money, basically toying with them and not receiving any significant injuries. If Gillibrand is capable of fighting with certain level 5s in duels, and Ella is capable of the same, except more, why is it then assumed that she definitely has less raw power, yes, it could be that she has just had the advantage of matchups so far and that she's highly skilled/knowledgeable about the ins and outs of supernatural powers and that makes it so she can do what she does. But she is also someone who can boost her power by consuming and we have no way of knowing just how much she's consumed over the time since she became a superhuman/level three. If this had been Malik/Bernhard/Henri obviously they'd have more but this is someone at level three where his growth is hampered by the fact that he's level three and not four or five.

 

[vogelbeest]

Ella "Hmhm, I'm a shapeshifter, and my shape doesn't shift unless I want it to. Sorry if I led you into thinking you had a chance, but I can't be hurt by you."

Ella "*sigh* This is why you should never rely on anyone but yourself. And why you're an idiot for refusing your next evolution."
Ella "*whisper* Let me show you old man, a new trick I learned from my last one."
"Ella's hand rests on the older superhumans back and all at once, a huge flood of power surges into his body."

"Ella's own body has already partially fused with his too, her torso bonded to his back. A protective measure against Nico, so that if she's to teleport Ella, she'll be forced to teleport her ally too."


So what's her new trick then? Merging some of her materials into the new form making it impossible to change shape?
Or did she find another way to make transmutations permanent?
If part of Ella is alive and merged with Duncan how would Nyx not see the difference after burning the tree down? She can talk to the dead...

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Either way her earlier statement :

Ella "It's mostly pointless anyway. Any transformation you do manage to force on them will reverse itself as soon as they regain dominance over the power you implant."
You "So it's useless in a fight?"
Ella "For you? Definitely. Evolve again, and maybe there'll be some more practical use for it in combat."


So it might just be the fact Ella at level 5 found the trick to make a level 3 superhuman transformation permanent...
Regardless of how long he's been a tree, 6 days or month, he does not seem to change back..
So is it really as pointless as she told us back then? She confirms for her it's not useless in a fight....
And if whatever she did is based on level 5 powers keeping a level 3 in tree form, he could be a tree for a long time..

 

[Fanvor]

Either way her earlier statement :

Ella "It's mostly pointless anyway. Any transformation you do manage to force on them will reverse itself as soon as they regain dominance over the power you implant."
You "So it's useless in a fight?"
Ella "For you? Definitely. Evolve again, and maybe there'll be some more practical use for it in combat."


So it might just be the fact Ella at level 5 found the trick to make a level 3 superhuman transformation permanent...
Regardless of how long he's been a tree, 6 days or month, he does not seem to change back..
So is it really as pointless as she told us back then? She confirms for her it's not useless in a fight....
And if whatever she did is based on level 5 powers keeping a level 3 in tree form, he could be a tree for a long time..

Read this.

Your answer hinges on the rule breaking 5th evo, which is fair, but, the simple fact is that it's far more likely that Ella is simply continuing to feed the transformation, this answer doesn't force us to make any guesses based on what is possible and gives us an answer based on what we already know.

So what's her new trick then? Merging some of her materials into the new form making it impossible to change shape?
Or did she find another way to make transmutations permanent?
If part of Ella is alive and merged with Duncan how would Nyx not see the difference after burning the tree down? She can talk to the dead...

The trick is probably forcing a state similar to stasis on her body.

 

[Fanvor]

Skill is very possible, power is a maybe imo. Ella has repeatedly been shown to punch above her weightclass as well, she didn't even lose out too badly against 2 level 5s when she was level 4, and she was giving Nico/Gillibrand/randomchick a run for their money, basically toying with them and not receiving any significant injuries. If Gillibrand is capable of fighting with certain level 5s in duels, and Ella is capable of the same, except more, why is it then assumed that she definitely has less raw power, yes, it could be that she has just had the advantage of matchups so far and that she's highly skilled/knowledgeable about the ins and outs of supernatural powers and that makes it so she can do what she does. But she is also someone who can boost her power by consuming and we have no way of knowing just how much she's consumed over the time since she became a superhuman/level three. If this had been Malik/Bernhard/Henri obviously they'd have more but this is someone at level three where his growth is hampered by the fact that he's level three and not four or five.

1. Caballero and Alexis were lvl 4 at the time not five, and she didn't hold her own she just forced them to go all out since they thought she would escape otherwise. Also, when they got to lvl 5, she got instantly demolished.
2. She was winning in a 3v1 because she figured out a counter to Nico, Jill was scared shitles and was basically useless, and Duncan couldn't break through her invulnerability trick. Her win was a case of creative use of power, not raw power output.
3. You give to much importance to the feeding, we don't even know if it works that way for Ella. And even if it does, you only get one power point for it, and even that is not a given, since most of the time it gives nothing. For Mc to get 300 power points from feeding and to essentially double his power he would have to kill and AT LEAST 300 men, so about a small rural village, Ella, as a lvl 5, would have to devour entire cities to get any significant boosts to power.

 

[vogelbeest]

The trick is probably forcing a state similar to stasis on her body.

Your feeding assumption was based on another statement about energy costs to maintain changes made to the body of the shapeshifter, it costs energy to sustain....
We already established when transforming the body of others, there is no such maintenance cost, any power is brought into the body before the transformation. There's the statement as soon that power is controlled by the victim he will change back.

Tissue of Ella whether alive or not could be keeping the merged tree in that shape, how much that would work after being burned down and resurrected remains a question....

The fact she mentioned it's pointless but when asked she tells the MC after evolving he may get more use for it? That seems to open a much easier theory ; Ella's level 5 shape could not be changed by Duncan, most likely due to level difference, the same can just be the case for the tree form, no matter what power Duncan has, it's simply not enough to overcome the difference in levels.... The whole point of Ella turning Duncan in a tree was to show him why he should not refuse his next evolution...

 

[bloodaxis]

1. Caballero and Alexis were lvl 4 at the time not five, and she didn't hold her own she just forced them to go all out since they thought she would escape otherwise. Also, when they got to lvl 5, she got instantly demolished.
2. She was winning in a 3v1 because she figured out a counter to Nico, Jill was scared shitles and was basically useless, and Duncan couldn't break through her invulnerability trick. Her win was a case of creative use of power, not raw power output.
3. You give to much importance to the feeding, we don't even know if it works that way for Ella. And even if it does, you only get one power point for it, and even that is not a given, since most of the time it gives nothing. For Mc to get 300 power points from feeding and to essentially double his power he would have to kill and AT LEAST 300 men, so about a small rural village, Ella, as a lvl 5, would have to devour entire cities to get any significant boosts to power.

1. She also didn't go all out, she just ran because she had other objectives.
2. True, Gillibrand does have fire which is a counter but it doesn't do you much good if you can't utilise it.
3. If anything I don't give enough importance to the feeding, why do you think our apostles/origin keep pushing us to feed to get stronger? Ella's the spawn of the third, which we are also a spawn of/or at least have their power as well as the fourth, there is absolutely no reason to believe she couldn't also do that. And I wouldn't discount her having killed a lot of people, she could just fly to the place that's having a revolutionary war going and eat corpses, and even then, there's nothing to say that eating monsters/superhumans won't give us power once we get strong enough to not have to purge theirs and instead be able to subjugate it/absorb it. Ella is ridiculously strong for how young she is, and some dude who's had 35 years to train as a level 3 could have more raw power, but there is nothing that says that he does and at least tangential evidence that says that he doesn't or he should've been able to fight it off to begin with. Or maybe her being level 5 meant she bypassed most of his innate defenses because he is not a level 5, at which point we're back to saying that he isn't powerful enough.

 

[PerpetuallyAmiss]

About Ella turning Duncan in to a tree; it was my assumption that while he has the power to resist in theory, in practice he cant conciously do any thing about it on account of being a fucking tree and his abilities don't work to passively fight it off for him, but another thought occurs to me with Ella's line "Here's a new trick I learned in my last one", and describing her as a parasite when she was "jacked in"; MAYBE she left some of her self as a literal parasite that's sustaining the form with his own power?

If that line of thought pans out might be she ressurects some time down the line by consuming Duncan; come forth like the alien chestburster, only big tiddy goth GF.

 

[Fanvor]

1. They both took the serum that leveled them up to 5.
2. True, Gillibrand does have fire which is a counter but it doesn't do you much good if you can't utilise it.
3. If anything I don't give enough importance to the feeding, why do you think our apostles/origin keep pushing us to feed to get stronger? Ella's the spawn of the third, which we are also a spawn of/or at least have their power as well as the fourth, there is absolutely no reason to believe she couldn't also do that. And I wouldn't discount her having killed a lot of people, she could just fly to the place that's having a revolutionary war going and eat corpses, and even then, there's nothing to say that eating monsters/superhumans won't give us power once we get strong enough to not have to purge theirs and instead be able to subjugate it/absorb it. Ella is ridiculously strong for how young she is, and some dude who's had 35 years to train as a level 3 could have more raw power, but there is nothing that says that he does and at least tangential evidence that says that he doesn't or he should've been able to fight it off to begin with. Or maybe her being level 5 meant she bypassed most of his innate defenses because he is not a level 5, at which point we're back to saying that he isn't powerful enough.

1. Yea, i did mention that, she got destroyed after that. And the fight before didn't exactly give us info.

3. An insane amount of assumptions and speculation going here.

3.1 Why do you think our apostles/origin keep pushing us to feed to get stronger? -

Because it will be important in the endgame somehow. How? How would i know, i just know it gives very little right now.
3.2 Ella's the spawn of the third, which we are also a spawn of/or at least have their power as well as the fourth, there is absolutely no reason to believe she couldn't also do that. -

There is a reason, she is, based on her own words, imperfect, and based on her own words again, Mc IS perfect, the power through feeding might easily be part or even the main reason why the Mc is special.
3.3 And I wouldn't discount her having killed a lot of people, she could just fly to the place that's having a revolutionary war going and eat corpses. -

True, but that would be very noticeable, for HERO and regular law officials both, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or, hell, millions of bodies don't just disappear on a whim. Plus, we only know of a single civil war like event happening during the course of the game, Ella would definitely need more of them.
3.4 there's nothing to say that eating monsters/superhumans won't give us power once we get strong enough to not have to purge theirs and instead be able to subjugate it/absorb it. -

Maybe, maybe not, that's just speculation. There's nothing to say that eating monsters/superhumans WILL give us power at a later date.
3.5 Ella is ridiculously strong for how young she is, and some dude who's had 35 years to train as a level 3 could have more raw power, but there is nothing that says that he does and at least tangential evidence that says that he doesn't or he should've been able to fight it off to begin with. -

There is something to say that he might have more power.

I will note that based on the last library encounter, the lieutenants and captains spar sometimes, considering his reputation as "Physically as strong as lvl 5" and his claims of being able to beat fresh lvl 5, we can assume that he won some sparing matches against them, like against Alexis or Caballero after they lvled up.

3.6 Or maybe her being level 5 meant she bypassed most of his innate defenses because he is not a level 5, at which point we're back to saying that he isn't powerful enough. -

Your answer hinges on the rule breaking 5th evo, which is fair, but, the simple fact is that it's far more likely that Ella is simply continuing to feed the transformation, this answer doesn't force us to make any guesses based on what is possible and gives us an answer based on what we already know.

 

[Fanvor]

If that line of thought pans out might be she ressurects some time down the line by consuming Duncan; come forth like the alien chestburster, only big tiddy goth GF.

I was thinking more like Ella being like a fruit that will grow from the tree, or something to that nature.

 

[Fanvor]

About Ella turning Duncan in to a tree; it was my assumption that while he has the power to resist in theory, in practice he cant conciously do any thing about it on account of being a fucking tree and his abilities don't work to passively fight it off for him, but another thought occurs to me with Ella's line "Here's a new trick I learned in my last one", and describing her as a parasite when she was "jacked in"; MAYBE she left some of her self as a literal parasite that's sustaining the form with his own power?

I'm still not entirely convinced by the consciousness argument, there are many examples where MC's power continues to work even if Mc gets his head exploded, like in one of the dead ends with Jake the tail starts working on its own, or like Alice's power would turn on and off without input, there are other examples, but really, it's all in the air right now. The only 2 other examples of transforming other supes were with Ange and Laurie, and neither one was descriptive in any way, so the rules are vague at best right now.

 

[bloodaxis]

1. Yea, i did mention that, she got destroyed after that. And the fight before didn't exactly give us info.

3. An insane amount of assumptions and speculation going here.

3.1 Why do you think our apostles/origin keep pushing us to feed to get stronger? -

Because it will be important in the endgame somehow. How? How would i know, i just know it gives very little right now.
3.2 Ella's the spawn of the third, which we are also a spawn of/or at least have their power as well as the fourth, there is absolutely no reason to believe she couldn't also do that. -

There is a reason, she is, based on her own words, imperfect, and based on her own words again, Mc IS perfect, the power through feeding might easily be part or even the main reason why the Mc is special.
3.3 And I wouldn't discount her having killed a lot of people, she could just fly to the place that's having a revolutionary war going and eat corpses. -

True, but that would be very noticeable, for HERO and regular law officials both, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or, hell, millions of bodies don't just disappear on a whim. Plus, we only know of a single civil war like event happening during the course of the game, Ella would definitely need more of them.
3.4 there's nothing to say that eating monsters/superhumans won't give us power once we get strong enough to not have to purge theirs and instead be able to subjugate it/absorb it. -

Maybe, maybe not, that's just speculation. There's nothing to say that eating monsters/superhumans WILL give us power at a later date.
3.5 Ella is ridiculously strong for how young she is, and some dude who's had 35 years to train as a level 3 could have more raw power, but there is nothing that says that he does and at least tangential evidence that says that he doesn't or he should've been able to fight it off to begin with. -

There is something to say that he might have more power.

3.6 Or maybe her being level 5 meant she bypassed most of his innate defenses because he is not a level 5, at which point we're back to saying that he isn't powerful enough. -

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I'll respond to some of this.
3.3. Deus is already letting Ella run rampant, and he's their watchdog.

3.5 We have this dudes own word that he'll beat her, I'm sorry but that is nothing to go on. Just because he's potentially managed to beat clark/alexis 1v1 doesn't mean that he'd be a match for Ella, it's possible he is but this conjecture is barely anything to go on since they are not intimately familiar with what she can do either.

3.6. It's very possible that she is, but imo it's more likely that her powers follow previously established ways of power interacting on others unless said powers counter each other directly, than assuming that she'd put herself in a position where she's liable to run out of power inside the hero base because she has to sustain a transformation on someone else. Anything is of course possible, we aren't WW after all so who knows what will actually happen.

I'm still not entirely convinced by the consciousness argument, there are many examples where MC's power continues to work even if Mc gets his head exploded, like in one of the dead ends with Jake the tail starts working on its own, or like Alice's power would turn on and off without input, there are other examples, but really, it's all in the air right now. The only 2 other examples of transforming other supes were with Ange and Laurie, and neither one was descriptive in any way, so the rules are vague at best right now.

Those are all their power interacting on themselves, to counteract an immediate threat, like a punch flying towards their face. It's not counteracting a "curse/debuff" that's been put on them, a curse would not be a curse unless it had a certain level of stealth, and as such if you need to wrack your brain to even get to unravelling it even if you are wildly powerful I'd say it does need some level of cognition.

 

[Fanvor]

3.3. Deus is already letting Ella run rampant, and he's their watchdog.

You don't need to be Deus to notice that thousands, if not more, people went missing.

3.5 We have this dudes own word that he'll beat her, I'm sorry but that is nothing to go on. Just because he's potentially managed to beat clark/alexis 1v1 doesn't mean that he'd be a match for Ella, it's possible he is but this conjecture is barely anything to go on since they are not intimately familiar with what she can do either.

I'm not saying that he is a match for Ella, clearly, he isn't. But i am saying his power lvl could be close, after all, other than Nyx, he is the strongest member of his team.

3.6. It's very possible that she is, but imo it's more likely that her powers follow previously established ways of power interacting on others unless said powers counter each other directly, than assuming that she'd put herself in a position where she's liable to run out of power inside the hero base because she has to sustain a transformation on someone else. Anything is of course possible, we aren't WW after all so who knows what will actually happen.

Who says maintaining the transformation will drain all of her power? With her being a lvl 5 and not needing food, water, sleep etc. to restore energy, she can probably maintain the transformation indefinitely.

 

[Fanvor]

Those are all their power interacting on themselves, to counteract an immediate threat, like a punch flying towards their face. It's not counteracting a "curse/debuff" that's been put on them, a curse would not be a curse unless it had a certain level of stealth, and as such if you need to wrack your brain to even get to unravelling it even if you are wildly powerful I'd say it does need some level of cognition.

And what about the origin breaking Jake's hold on Mc? It could work something like that. Plus, curses aren't exactly stealthy, but whatever.

 

[RonaldGrand6969]

And what about the origin breaking Jake's hold on Mc? It could work something like that. Plus, curses aren't exactly stealthy, but whatever.

Bro you need to get over the fact that Duncan is going to stay a fucking tree, because he IS a fucking tree. Not just mentally but also physically.

The way I see it, the tree is just Ella shaping him into it. Much like how we gave our friend a huge sledgehammer penis, or Nikki from boy to thicc ass woman. Those aren't going to change just cause someone isn't nearby enough or is dead.

It would be a different story altogether if it was like only Duncan's arm or something. Then, he could actively fight against his CHANGE (not temporary change) via his power. But right now he doesn't even have organs, let alone sensibility, he's a fucking T.R.E.E.

There's also the question if DUNCAN is even Alice or not. Sure Nyx says he is, but we know literally nothing about her, for all we know she's helping Ella and Duncan's body is being used as a backup so she lied to us. Or maybe it's because she doesn't care enough to worry about the details considering he's literally her new living room plant. Trees are living things, I dunno how Nyx's power works and whether or not she sees residual energies or ACTUAL SOULS, but would she say the same thing about Bailey? Bailey or the other corpses were dead, but they were brought back in husk form via the oil, does that mean THEY are LIVING or just UNDEAD? If Duncan has no semblance of self, no brain, no organs; what's to say Duncan isn't DEAD, and his tree body is the only thing left living?

 

[bloodaxis]

There's also the question if DUNCAN is even Alice or not.

I know it's a typo but oh man if Alice turned out to be that guy I'd flip my shit.

 

[Gtdead]

Kenny is not connected to anything, he talks to mother because Mynyak are a hivemind with telepathy and inherited a link to the hivemind, not some spawn/parent connection.

Hmm, good point, Kenny was monsterified anyway so superhumans things don't apply to him anymore.

Alice is the daughter of fairy, not the 6. Her seeing the 6th during the evo trans means nothing, since we know from Del thal all other supes experience the same thing, they see the apostles in their visions, not their immediate parents.

I tried to find that Del conversation but I couldn't. Can you point me to it? The only thing I have found is the library segment on the Uncategorized. It claims that a handful of agents have seen the monster but that doesn't mean they were connected. MC in his second evolution gets foreign memories and has visions about the moon and some kind of invasion I think.

I also think that the connection is paramount. During MC's second evolution, the Eye says "Together, we are chosen. For God and glory, take our power.". It's not the direct parent that gives him his power, it's the Eye. So by the same logic, Alice getting connected to 6th during evolution should get his power too.

Good point, but he still would have to be obscenely strong to even stand a chance against lvl 5, and since we know he kinda can, we can assume that power wise he is a head above almost every one else. I would also remind you that, other than Nyx, he is the strongest member of team Reaper

I guess his ranking somewhat speaks to Duncans ability, but on the other hand, being the second strongest in team Reaper where only Nyx is level 5 and Jill did almost nothing in the fight with Ella, it isn't that impressive. Jill in particular, the only thing she managed to do was to redirect a projectile and pee her pants.

There are 12 level 5s in HERO according to Clark.
Bernhardt - Cthulu
Henri - Cthulu
Lisa - Cthulu
Confirmed Unnamed - Cthulu
Confirmed Unnamed - Cthulu
Malik - Lucifer
Nico - Lucifer
Alexis - Lucifer
Clark - Lucifer
Zack - Chronos
Nyx - Reaper
Lucius - Oberon

Everyone else is level 4 with a couple of exceptional level 3s (Confirmed by Lisa). So the only thing actually confirmed by the Narrator is that Gillibrand is stronger than some level 4s. Which is still impressive, but I doubt that it's of any consequence against someone like Ella who can toy with Nico buffed with Clark's light.

 

[Fanvor]

I tried to find that Del conversation but I couldn't. Can you point me to it? The only thing I have found is the library segment on the Uncategorized. It claims that a handful of agents have seen the monster but that doesn't mean they were connected. MC in his second evolution gets foreign memories and has visions about the moon and some kind of invasion I think.

When they give you the helmet, day after the HERO reveal.

 

[necromater]

I know it's a typo but oh man if Alice turned out to be that guy I'd flip my shit.

I went and read that first by mistake and
I'm still scared