VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.986] [WeirdWorld]

[Marvoch]

Regarding to the discussion above I recognized there is a lot to discover and learn in front of me

I´m staying at Day 20

Huh! By day 20 I was still super-confused. I didn't even realise that the fourth apostle and the third were distinct entities. But that's the beauty of the game, putting the little pieces together and building up everything there is to understand. Anyway, watch out for spoilers in here. Some things are nice to experience without knowing about them first.

For sexoffended,
You are basically saying the same thing to Gtdead, only in two different nuances. We are saying that in Ella's Memory's powers (not awakened) there is the hand of the fourth apostle, on the other hand, you say that she awakened them more independently (failing to do so). But remember, though, that genetic compatibility does not give access to power; it is one's monster parent that grants the powers, which then take hold based on the genetic code of the infected (thus based on spawn compatibility with them) and the spawn mindset. If there is no compatibility between the genetic code and the origin of the monster's powers, I guess you just die. Low compatibility, on the other hand, generates a weak superhuman.

From what I understand you are saying that the third and fourth partially share each other's powers (as a minor trait) and that therefore the third's infection of Ella and her compatibility with Memory led to the possibility of having access to Memory's powers, only that she failed the process to awaken them (and since third and fourth are related to Evolution, it fits as a hypothesis).
Instead, we are more inclined, for one reason or another, to consider that Ella is an experiment by Memory to create a 50\50 spawn (precisely because Ella had a similar body to MC, as she stated), even though Ella's monster father is Body, which is plausible to be true because MC can be the spawn of Body and still be a balanced 50\50 spawn.

 

[Gtdead]

So, let's think of some applications of Memory powers. Syla promised to teach MC some cool stuff. What that may be?

1. Lethe:
The target forgets specific memories or loses context of them, rendering them useless.

2. Memory Drain:
The caster restores energy by draining the positive emotions from the target's memories. The target feels miserable when thinking of them.

3. Memory Link - Premonition:
a. The caster can choose to link the memories of the friendly targets into a common pool, allowing for instant sharing of knowledge and communication at any distance. A localized version of Protoss khala.
b. The caster can choose to link the enemy's memories to his own, gaining direct feedback and knowledge of the immediate next actions.

4. Recurring Nightmare:
The caster forces the target to experience a nightmare on a feedback loop, that will cause increasing amounts of agony/trauma. The nightmare can be planted and magically amplified, it doesn't have to be a true memory. It will be similar to Command: Pain, but with a bit of variety on the actual effect.

5. Memory Projection:
The caster can implant his own memories to a target for various purposes like communication, sharing of knowledge or deception.

6. Memory Form:
The caster can control what memories others create or retain when interacting with him and after. For example he can force the target to immediately forget the caster after losing him from sight like "The Silence" in Doctor Who. Or remember MC as a demon, a child, an innocent bystander etc,

Edit: Some more examples to avoid confusion.

 

[Simpgor]

So, let's think of some applications of Memory powers. Syla promised to teach MC some cool stuff. What that may be?

What follows the "rule of cool" that WW would be able to convey/draw and still fit with overall lore .

I wonder how much his fighting will change because memory is on the opposite end of "fighting styles". One is "oooga boooga zombieboi smash" and the other would presumably be more esoteric. That also makes me think about how WW will show the powers during a fight scene which could greatly impact what MC uses in battle.

For example: what would the player see if MC used "nightmare" just a line of text describing it? Or would we get a full look into it? And how would that effect the flow of the fight etc

 

[Marvoch]

What follows the "rule of cool" that WW would be able to convey/draw and still fit with overall lore .

I wonder how much his fighting will change because memory is on the opposite end of "fighting styles". One is "oooga boooga zombieboi smash" and the other would presumably be more esoteric. That also makes me think about how WW will show the powers during a fight scene which could greatly impact what MC uses in battle.

For example: what would the player see if MC used "nightmare" just a line of text describing it? Or would we get a full look into it? And how would that effect the flow of the fight etc

Keeping in mind how WW likes to display what is happening, especially if it is strange, supernatural, or disturbing, for me with nightmares he would show the actual scenes. Honestly, though, Memory's powers seem much less focused on combat, at least in a direct way.

What gets me hyped is the fact that MC might become able to use the powers of the other apostles due to Memory powers (the idea was thrown there with Xanthe; he of course called it impractical, but eh, MC is a special boy and this connection to the other apostles and the fact that he is practically the quintessential aspect of Evolution bodes well).

 

[Simpgor]

Keeping in mind how WW likes to display what is happening, especially if it is strange, supernatural, or disturbing, for me with nightmares he would show the actual scenes. Honestly, though, Memory's powers seem much less focused on combat, at least in a direct way.

What gets me hyped is the fact that MC might become able to use the powers of the other apostles due to Memory powers (the idea was thrown there with Xanthe; he of course called it impractical, but eh, MC is a special boy and this connection to the other apostles and the fact that he is practically the quintessential aspect of Evolution bodes well).

I agree on both points especially that memory will be less useful in direct combat, I posted previously and am a fan of the idea that MC will be able to combine/mix/use powers that haven't/shouldn't be used in combination.

 

[sexoffended]

So, let's think of some applications of Memory powers. Syla promised to teach MC some cool stuff. What that may be?

1. Lethe:
The target forgets specific memories or loses context of them, rendering them useless.

2. Memory Drain:
The caster restores energy by draining the positive emotions from the target's memories. The target feels miserable when thinking of them.

3. Memory Link - Premonition:
a. The caster can choose to link the memories of the friendly targets into a common pool, allowing for instant sharing of knowledge and communication at any distance.
b. The caster can choose to link the enemy's memories to his own, gaining direct feedback and knowledge of the immediate next actions.

4. Recurring Nightmare:
The caster forces the target to experience a nightmare on a feedback loop, that will cause increasing amounts of agony/trauma.

5. Memory Projection:
The caster can implant his own memories to a target for various purposes like communication, sharing of knowledge or deception.

6. Memory Form:
The caster can control what memories others create or retain when interacting with him and after For example he can force the target to immediately forget the caster after losing him from sight.

AFAIK just from memoryscape connection alone MC can communicate with his allies, dead or alive, and spy on his enemies given he made strong enough impression. Flashbacks and illusions are a good possibility. Anything like memory blocks will probably be heavily limited if not in speed then definitely in power, as we gradually start to enter territory of the 1st.

1. It'll be like making someone forget how to breathe. Direct attacks will be resisted by target's power.

2. It's pretty weak in intensity and yet would require a lot of constant effort. Not all that exciting, but very realistic. Energy recharge won't happen (it's Memory, not Emotion), but power increase is highly likely. Also stealing someone's happy memories and leaving bad ones not only will empower MC, but also motivate him while demotivating the enemy.

3. To support connection like that will be extremely disorienting for everyone involved. I don't see that being used any time soon or with anyone besides a tiny number of allies.

4. That's literally Memory Echo. Only difference is that now MC can use connections. Same effect and effort as Memory Drain. Probably will be a component of same technique.

5. Baseline Memory abilities. Just show up to them and bam - new memory about your visit is made.

6. Definitely won't happen. That's something Authority does. For MC to instantly connect to someone and just as easily suppress or steal whole bunch of memories likely won't be possible till at least next evolution.

 

[Gtdead]

What follows the "rule of cool" that WW would be able to convey/draw and still fit with overall lore .

I wonder how much his fighting will change because memory is on the opposite end of "fighting styles". One is "oooga boooga zombieboi smash" and the other would presumably be more esoteric. That also makes me think about how WW will show the powers during a fight scene which could greatly impact what MC uses in battle.

For example: what would the player see if MC used "nightmare" just a line of text describing it? Or would we get a full look into it? And how would that effect the flow of the fight etc

Truth be told, Memory Echo as an attack was "shown" only against Deryl. Past that we just assume what it does but we aren't shown. Against Claire he describes how it interacts with the corruption but not much else. I expect the mental attacks to be given similar attention, just a mention of what memory MC uses/deletes/manipulates for maximum impact. We also have the Jake and Shen precedents. Sometimes WW shows the effects, other times they are implied. Shen's illusions for example start getting wild towards the end of the fight, while Command: Pain was reduced the a "ghgahahghaaahg" from MC and we could never judge the actual damage done.

I'm certain that MC won't favor direct memory attacks anyway. He will only use them against someone like Evander who is exceptionally strong against Physical attacks.

 

[Gtdead]

AFAIK just from memoryscape connection alone MC can communicate with his allies, dead or alive, and spy on his enemies given he made strong enough impression. Flashbacks and illusions are a good possibility. Anything like memory blocks will probably be heavily limited if not in speed then definitely in power, as we gradually start to enter territory of the 1st.

During the last update WW removed a lot of text that made it seem like Authority can affect Memories. He completely changed how people understand Jake's weight loss, he made it seem like Laurie remembers but can't think about her time with Troy against Ella. I also think that he added dialogue to Ella making a remark how Authrority isn't meant to be used for Memory manipulation.

So everything Jake did to affect other's "perception" of him was crossing into Memory's territory. He literally removed every mention of the word memory in Jake's abilities and the timing of the "retcon" coincides very well with MC learning new memory stuff. I have a post in the offtopic listing all the changes in dialogue.

edit: What are the differences anyway?
For me the difference is fairly clear. Authority works on Behavior, Memory works on Perception.
Under Authority, If A kills B, he will know what he did, but couldn't do otherwise and may not question the reasons why he did it, thinking he was in the right.
Under Memory, If A kills B, he won't exactly know what he did, either because he forgot about it or because he remembered the scene/victim differently.

The difference with Illusion is that
Under Memory, if A kills B, only A will think that something seemed wrong about B.
Under Illusion, if A kills B, everyone will agree that something seemed wrong with B.

Edit: Found it
https://f95zone.to/threads/superhuman-off-topic-discussion.174695/post-12816370

 

[Marvoch]

A little change of focus. It's a thing a thought about a lot during the game. In your opinion how much of a difference will sparing or absorping Jake will do? With the last development of MC Memory powers and is inner world, it could be a big change in power, but I'm not that sure.

 

[Simpgor]

A little change of focus. It's a thing a thought about a lot during the game. In your opinion how much of a difference will sparing or absorping Jake will do? With the last development of MC Memory powers and is inner world, it could be a big change in power, but I'm not that sure.

Given the "meta" of a visual novel the change won't be that big until near the end. This update was the first time that it's really "come into play" and him being alive/dead doesn't create very different scenarios.

 

[KingAgamemnon]

During the last update WW removed a lot of text that made it seem like Authority can affect Memories. He completely changed how people understand Jake's weight loss, he made it seem like Laurie remembers but can't think about her time with Tony against Ella. I also think that he added dialogue to Ella making a remark how Authrority isn't meant to be used for Memory manipulation.

So everything Jake did to affect other's "perception" of him was crossing into Memory's territory. He literally removed every mention of the word memory in Jake's abilities and the timing of the "retcon" coincides very well with MC learning new memory stuff. I have a post in the offtopic listing all the changes in dialogue.

edit: What are the differences anyway?
For me the difference is fairly clear. Authority works on Behavior, Memory works on Perception.
Under Authority, If A kills B, he will know what he did, but couldn't do otherwise and may not question the reasons why he did it, thinking he was in the right.
Under Memory, If A kills B, he won't exactly know what he did, either because he forgot about it or because he remembered the scene/victim differently.

The difference with Illusion is that
Under Memory, if A kills B, only A will think that something seemed wrong about B.
Under Illusion, if A kills B, everyone will agree that something seemed wrong with B.

Edit: Found it
https://f95zone.to/threads/superhuman-off-topic-discussion.174695/post-12816370

This makes me wonder, is Jake actually thin now, or is he still projecting his "thinness" onto other people. And if so, shouldn't we be strong enough to see through it now?

 

[Gtdead]

A little change of focus. It's a thing a thought about a lot during the game. In your opinion how much of a difference will sparing or absorping Jake will do? With the last development of MC Memory powers and is inner world, it could be a big change in power, but I'm not that sure.

We actually have a 4th Wall break in this instance:

label killweak3:
Unknown "More."
Unknown "We need more."
You "H-Huh? *snore*"
Unknown "Every opportunity. Every single one. Always devour. Always."
Unknown "Our end requires it."

Frankly I don't expect that characters as weak as Kenny, Bailey, Danica and Jake will matter in terms of power. At most they have a few tens of power. But if the "end requires it", it probably means that MC must get confident at consuming, which may allow him to consume even stronger beings at some later point.

The other possibility is that MC will eventually start making copies of these people. If he can make a copy of Jake, imbued with MC's own power, that would be extremely potent.

Bailey while not important, is probably required to show MC the way. She is talking about another world she visits inside MC's consciousness. Who knows what this will turn out to be.

So my prediction is that it will unlock an ending. However it probably won't happen out of the blue. As we approach the end, the differences between the two routes will become more pronounced.

This makes me wonder, is Jake actually thin now, or is he still projecting his "thinness" onto other people. And if so, shouldn't we be strong enough to see through it now?

With this new change I doubt that Jake can make people see him as thin anyway. At most he can make them think that fat is attractive.
But anyway, Jake confirms he has changed.

Jake "(I'm not even fat anymore, does his mind not register the inconsistency? I've got to get this thing under control.)"

 

[sexoffended]

During the last update WW removed a lot of text that made it seem like Authority can affect Memories. He completely changed how people understand Jake's weight loss, he made it seem like Laurie remembers but can't think about her time with Tony against Ella. I also think that he added dialogue to Ella making a remark how Authrority isn't meant to be used for Memory manipulation.

So everything Jake did to affect other's "perception" of him was crossing into Memory's territory. He literally removed every mention of the word memory in Jake's abilities and the timing of the "retcon" coincides very well with MC learning new memory stuff. I have a post in the offtopic listing all the changes in dialogue.

edit: What are the differences anyway?
For me the difference is fairly clear. Authority works on Behavior, Memory works on Perception.
Under Authority, If A kills B, he will know what he did, but couldn't do otherwise and may not question the reasons why he did it, thinking he was in the right.
Under Memory, If A kills B, he won't exactly know what he did, either because he forgot about it or because he remembered the scene/victim differently.

The difference with Illusion is that
Under Memory, if A kills B, only A will think that something seemed wrong about B.
Under Illusion, if A kills B, everyone will agree that something seemed wrong with B.

Edit: Found it
https://f95zone.to/threads/superhuman-off-topic-discussion.174695/post-12816370

Honestly, I find theory about 10th being Illusion a complete malarkey, and Authority is shown to be perfectly capable of suppressing memories, because remembering something is a behaviour. Jake's weight loss always was about everyone just being affected by his power and ignoring it. Changes are mostly here to remove any potential confusion.

Memory changes perception of the past, not present, unless it somehow manifested into reality, as illusion (Shen) or otherwise (whatever Nico sent sunbathing).

 

[kibaris]

Honestly, I find theory about 10th being Illusion a complete malarkey, and Authority is shown to be perfectly capable of suppressing memories, because remembering something is a behaviour. Jake's weight loss always was about everyone just being affected by his power and ignoring it. Changes are mostly here to remove any potential confusion.

Memory changes perception of the past, not present, unless it somehow manifested into reality, as illusion (Shen) or otherwise (whatever Nico sent sunbathing).

Except for the fact that Autority doesnt suppress them, they block the action to thinking about them, Laurie is aware of it and her memories are still there,she just dont make the connection with Jake power.
It's the same with Jake weight loss, he forced other to think about it beeing normal a certain way , Mc still know that Jake was overweight , because he was more powerfull than Jake and knew him before, when other affected by his power couldnt think about it because of his power prevented them to do so.

With memories power like what Sylla did to mc, he was aware that memory are missing but cant remember anything at all. he can think about them and any way he want but it doesnt change anything , there's just nothing to think about.

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and with enough power you can surpass that order, like mc did in prison

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[Marvoch]

Honestly, I find theory about 10th being Illusion a complete malarkey

Why doesn't it make sense for the tenth to be Illusion? In the end, Shen has powers based on illusion and dream manipulation (so they exist), and Eisheth is the direct progeny of the ninth and all her powers are built around rewriting the reality to her benefit. Given the general trend of the apostles' power pairs, this seems reasonable as an assumption. Will (mental), Power (physical); Body (physical), Memory (mental); Space and Time are in clear antithesis. So the opposite of reality is illusion, or at most dreams or imagination.

 

[myst0501]

Honestly, I find theory about 10th being Illusion a complete malarkey, and Authority is shown to be perfectly capable of suppressing memories, because remembering something is a behaviour. Jake's weight loss always was about everyone just being affected by his power and ignoring it. Changes are mostly here to remove any potential confusion.

Memory changes perception of the past, not present, unless it somehow manifested into reality, as illusion (Shen) or otherwise (whatever Nico sent sunbathing).

Superhuman powers may come from different sources/origins, but that doesn't mean they can't be applied for similar overlapping results. Jake commanding someone to forget something is a good example.

Frankly, I fail to see why the mc couldn't replicate all of the powers jake has shown so far with their own memory powers once he's become experienced enough with them.

I also dispute that memory can't change your "present". Even by the time light bounces of an object we may be looking at and enters our eyes, a small fraction of time has passed. Given that, it is entirely plausible to say everything we are looking at any given moment actually exists a fractions of a fraction of time in the past. With that in mind, there is no reason memory cannot generate real time illusions by messing with someones memories of their perceived present moment.

 

[kibaris]

Superhuman powers may come from different sources, but I that doesn't mean that can't be applied for similar overlapping results. Jake commanding someone to forget something is a good example.

Frankly, I fail to see how to see why the mc couldn't replicate all of the powers jake has shown so far with their memory powers once he's experienced enough with them.

I also dispute that memory can't change your "present". Even by the time light bounces of an object we may be looking at and enters our eyes, a small fraction of time has passed. Given that, it is entirely plausible to say everything we are looking at any given moment actually exists a fractions of a fraction of time in the past. With that in mind, there is not reason memory cannot generate real time illusions by messing with someones memories.

A monster with memory can already doing that, the one that look like Sylla

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and i'm willing to bet that Sylla will teach something similar to mc .

 

[Marvoch]

A monster with memory can already doing that, the one that look like Sylla

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and i'm willing to bet that Sylla will teach something similar to mc .

Yeah! That's what it also think. He will be able to replicate other powers via memory and body. Obv limited by his own power cap and maybe skill set.

 

[kibaris]

For 10 beeing Illusion, i would think that with 9 beeing Truth, 10 will simply be Lie where would fall every form of deception like illusion.
And both would fall under Reality who would be the 4th arbiter.

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for the 1st, we have voice, will,words and he's god's will
for the 2nd every word refer to strenght( lifting, energy,might) and he's god's strenght
for the 3rd basis of life, Origin, flesh and he's god's form
for the 4rd history, adaptation,evolution and he's god's insight
for the 5th we have eyes mind and patience and he's god's age
for the 6th we have the expansion of universe , and he's god space.

For 9 and 10 il could be god's deceit and god's right falling under reality, one bending it to make things true and the other to deceiving with lies

 

[Gtdead]

Thinking about what expressions the various Traits have is a bit like changing ghosts. We also have small nuggets of info that really mess with my perception.

Examples:
1. Ella suggests that Jake's power is much more mentally oriented than it should. She says that he is the type of person who cares more about people than things.

This is extremely interesting, as it's suggests that Authority can be used for objects, not just living beings. The question is.. how?

-At first I thought that it would be some form of telekinesis, or commanding objects to float, perform various functions etc. This is the power of the Ninth...

- It also can't be the ability to change matter's state. That would be part of Body's power. For example commanding things to melt, freeze, explode etc.
- Messing with their energy should be part of Power. Things like forcing items to combust etc.
- Turning them into living objects would be the domain of Creation.
- Annihilating them would be the domain of Destruction.

Does anyone have any idea who Authority could be applied to objects? The only thing I can think of is ..asking a door to open? Basically asking any object to perform the function it was made for? This whole thing seems extremely restrictive compared to Ella's proposal.

I guess if you could ask Tectonic Plates to move, Earth to stop rotating, or the Sun to stop burning, that would be fucking terrifying but it would also require terrible amounts of power that Jake clearly doesn't possess. And frankly I still think that at this level it messes with Truth's portfolio.

2. WW changed every reference to Jake to make it seem like he absolutely can't interact with Memories.

Even that ability to stop individuals from thinking about their memories seem to be a stretch for his powers.
Ella "You fucked her mind in a serious way. Messing with someone's memories like that... It's not what your powers are for. And using them on her while on the cusp of your evolution? Very dangerous move."

So it seems that the reason Mia's brain got destroyed was because Jake forced her to forget. The only way for the affected to forget is to.. destroy the brain? At least this one kinda makes sense?

3. WW seems to have deleted some old dialogue with Ella saying that her trasmutation power is something that not even the Apostles can do.

I put my hand in the fire about this. I'm certain that such a piece of dialogue existed but I can't find it anywhere. I guess it's not that important, but again I feel that transmutation kinda messes with Truth's portfolio, at least in some of the ways we've seen Ella do it. Perhaps Eisheth's domain is part of a more complex interaction, similar to Valravn's heart?