VN Ren'Py Superhuman [v0.986] [WeirdWorld]

[Simpgor]

Yeah, a God would dream of creation before creating.

Uh why? They are a god they shouldn't need to "dream" of something shouldn't they just be able to "do"? I guess in a game/series focused on combat like this the idea that a god (or any entity) has to actively think about thier power (or dream) are almost always beaten by someone who does it "automatically" (like MC having to think about where to regen from changing to his spine is borderline unkillable and arguably as smart as he is )

I'll grant that none of those three jump out at me as a clear answer, but I could see lie even from a single God assuming there is anything "past" it (outer gods, the readers/players themselves/ WW himself)

 

[Gtdead]

Shen's power can be explained by strong Memory augmented with Authority. Ella's ritual consisted of making a connection from both points. Same happens to MC - he's being pushed into dream by power with Memory lineage and guided through the process by Syla who exists entirely within memoryscape. Also Shen's ability to manifest some of his illusions physically after 4 evolution is an additional argument for his power being a Memory mix.

My theory for 10th is Lie. Truth works by imposition of concepts and events within certain physical borders, Lie destructs/ereases things and events if they stray outside of a predetermined borders like a deal or vow. Basically it's an explanation for Shopkeep's and Charlie's power.

The Narrator says that the humans who looked like Eisheth were under Shen's power. It's quite hard to explain this effect with either Authority or Memory. He would need to affect Elijah or Kira in that case.

"Eisheth's inborn instincts kick in and she leaps away, gripping every human, now no longer under Shen's power, and lifting them into the air."

Also if it was Authority or Memory, wouldn't Shen be extremely strained by trying to affect 2 level 5s for so long? He is just a level 4.

I understand your argument, Lie and Truth are indeed opposite concepts. However, consider also that we are talking about 12 aspects of one God. The others all make sense, but Lie? Is this apostle the lie of God? Would a god lie? In this light, even Illusion is a weak option. Probably the most sensible options would be Imagination and then Dream.

One important thing to note, since a lot of us are going by the apostolic statements ("I'm Gods X"), Truth is the name of the Apostle.
So the statement would be "I'm Gods X, something something, the something Truth".
X could be reality, actualization or actuality, domain, etc.

The 10th Apostle could be God's imagination, possibility, innovation.

The reason I think Lie wouldn't work is because it feels like a colloquial term with a negative load. Illusion works better.

The important think to note here is that the terms have to be tied to a overarching concept. Truth and Illusion work greatly together to affect Perception.

Both True and False things affect our perception. As long as they feel real to us, then it doesn't matter if they actually are or not. It's how placebos work. It's how praise works. Basically a lot of things can be attributed to it.

The "feeling of home" can be an illusion for example. Perhaps at first, the particular house had the emotional load that made us feel like we are at home. With time, the things that made it this way may change so they aren't true anymore, but the feeling persists.

Doing things to forget your worries can be an illusion too. You had a great night with your friends out, you felt better, but reality hits your hard the next day. It wasn't necessarily the fact that you drank or had a stimulating conversation that made your happy. It was that for a while, your forgot your troubles. You forgot reality.

 

[Marvoch]

Uh why? They are a god they shouldn't need to "dream" of something shouldn't they just be able to "do"? I guess in a game/series focused on combat like this the idea that a god (or any entity) has to actively think about thier power (or dream) are almost always beaten by someone who does it "automatically" (like MC having to think about where to regen from changing to his spine is borderline unkillable and arguably as smart as he is )

I'll grant that none of those three jump out at me as a clear answer, but I could see lie even from a single God assuming there is anything "past" it (outer gods, the readers/players themselves/ WW himself)

Please, be real. MC's spine is much smarter than he is. If only he would let it do its work in peace.

Back on a serious note, I understand your point of view. I'm not so convinced, but no thesis holds at 100%. We will just have to wait these 30 days until the next update, hoping that WW will show us the connections to the remaining six.

 

[sexoffended]

The Narrator says that the humans who looked like Eisheth were under Shen's power. It's quite hard to explain this effect with either Authority or Memory. He would need to affect Elijah or Kira in that case.

"Eisheth's inborn instincts kick in and she leaps away, gripping every human, now no longer under Shen's power, and lifting them into the air."

Also if it was Authority or Memory, wouldn't Shen be extremely strained by trying to affect 2 level 5s for so long? He is just a level 4.



One important thing to note, since a lot of us are going by the apostolic statements ("I'm Gods X"), Truth is the name of the Apostle.
So the statement would be "I'm Gods X, something something, the something Truth".
X could be reality, actualization or actuality, domain, etc.

The 10th Apostle could be God's imagination, possibility, innovation.

The reason I think Lie wouldn't work is because it feels like a colloquial term with a negative load. Illusion works better.

The important think to note here is that the terms have to be tied to a overarching concept. Truth and Illusion work greatly together to affect Perception.

Both True and False things affect our perception. As long as they feel real to us, then it doesn't matter if they actually are or not. It's how placebos work. It's how praise works. Basically a lot of things can be attributed to it.

The "feeling of home" can be an illusion for example. Perhaps at first, the particular house had the emotional load that made us feel like we are at home. With time, the things that made it this way may change so they aren't true anymore, but the feeling persists.

Doing things to forget your worries can be an illusion too. You had a great night with your friends out, you felt better, but reality hits your hard the next day. It wasn't necessarily the fact that you drank or had a stimulating conversation that made your happy. It was that for a while, your forgot your troubles. You forgot reality.

Memory to project Eisheth's visage, Authority to make onlookers believe in it. Shen is capable of projecting himself into lvl5's head while being pretty far away. It's also unknown how he benefit from limits lifted by 4th evolution. Using other people as connection point with memory is possible.

 

[Marvoch]

Memory to project Eisheth's visage, Authority to make onlookers believe in it. Shen is capable of projecting himself into lvl5's head while being pretty far away. It's also unknown how he benefit from limits lifted by 4th evolution. Using other people as connection point with memory is possible.

In my opinion, Gtdead is right. It is much more likely that Shen influenced the monsters and humans with his power than Elijah and his companion. This is also because the transformation happens while Elijah is not looking at the subject and it is the way he discovers that he is being deceived. If the power were affecting Elijah's perception directly, there would not be this vulnerability.

And this without taking into account the logistics of influencing two lvl5 at the same time.

 

[sexoffended]

In my opinion, Gtdead is right. It is much more likely that Shen influenced the monsters and humans with his power than Elijah and his companion. This is also because the transformation happens while Elijah is not looking at the subject and it is the way he discovers that he is being deceived. If the power were affecting Elijah's perception directly, there would not be this vulnerability.

And this without taking into account the logistics of influencing two lvl5 at the same time.

Transformation happens outside of Elijah's view because Shen is highly skilled at using his power. Illusions exist in Elijah's perception because how else Shen can be present as an illusion communicating with him otherwise. Also Shen having memory lineage power makes it easier to choose what to show to a certain person. I don't think SIN has that level of intel on HERO's high-ups.

 

[TheShelly]

Transformation happens outside of Elijah's view because Shen is highly skilled at using his power. Illusions exist in Elijah's perception because how else Shen can be present as an illusion communicating with him otherwise. Also Shen having memory lineage power makes it easier to choose what to show to a certain person. I don't think SIN has that level of intel on HERO's high-ups.

Man, the coping is insane. I very highly doubt that a single still relatively fresh lvl 4 superhuman could have enough skill and power to consistently fool two lvl 5s.

 

[sexoffended]

Man, the coping is insane. I very highly doubt that a single still relatively fresh lvl 4 superhuman could have enough skill and power to consistently fool two lvl 5s.

We had lvl2 Jake giving indirect order to lvl5 Alexis.

Shen's power can be explained in it's entirety by already existing things. There's no need to dedicate an entire fundamental aspect of reality to making bad dreams.

 

[myst0501]

So far we haven't seen any example of memories being taken out completely on the fly as soon as they are made. We've seen Shen forcing his image into Elijah's perception, but judging by how Shen is capable of ordering people into dreams, his power must have Authority component. I suspect that taking out someone's memories with this speed, precision and completeness will be almost impossible for someone stronger than MC and absolutely impractical for targets weaker.

Memory to project Eisheth's visage, Authority to make onlookers believe in it. Shen is capable of projecting himself into lvl5's head while being pretty far away. It's also unknown how he benefit from limits lifted by 4th evolution. Using other people as connection point with memory is possible.

These two statements seem contradictory to me.

Assuming, as you suppose, Shen's power has an authority component to it, why would that then allow him to use memory powers to alter the perceptions of two lvl 5 superhumans for a prolonged time?

 

[sexoffended]

These two statements seem contradictory to me.

Assuming, as you suppose, Shen's power has an authority component to it, why would that then allow him to use memory powers to alter the perceptions of two lvl 5 superhumans for a prolonged time?

You mishmashed my response about pure Memory trait. It alone can't do everything necessary to make perception alterations as complete. No contradiction.

Authority is known to be able to be used on much stronger targets without entering into internal power clash. Why wouldn't it? Especially if you forget that Shen's main power is forcing dreams, and illusions are something secondary.

 

[Gtdead]

You mishmashed my response about pure Memory trait. It alone can't do everything necessary to make perception alterations as complete. No contradiction.

1. Authority is known to be able to be used on much stronger targets without entering into internal power clash. Why wouldn't it? 2. Especially if you forget that Shen's main power is forcing dreams, and illusions are something secondary.

1.
I don't think this applies to Shen.
The example we have is Jake saying something that Alexis wouldn't care about. Jake could not ask Alexis for the base location and it's not like allowing Jake in a particular room would be terrible, at least not for her.

Once Alexis started viewing Jake as a hostile, all bets were off.
Elijah views Shen as a hostile from the get go, but there is no power contest. The contexts do not match and the narrator says that Shen's power affects the humans, not the Superhumans.

2.
It's quite unlikely for the complex power to be the primary and the simple power to be the secondary. This doesn't really happen.

Jake first learned how to imbue his words with his power, and then how to give specific commands.
MC first learned basic memory reading and then how to consume memories.
MC first learned how to stretch his hands and then how to make tentacles.
Alice first manifested her fist orbs and then her graviton bomb.
Deryl first knew how to make objects and then learned how to make clones and chimera.
Danica first learned to throw light crosses and then she learned how to do the X marks the spot.

The simplest power is almost always the first one. (I'm talking about active ones, because the passive ones always manifest first)
Thinking that the convoluted ability with no exact rules manifested first, compared to just changing the appearence of an object, is a losing bet.

There is no precedent where Memory powers affect an object in relation to a target as MC can't do anything like that.
There is no precedent where Authority powers affect an object in relation to a target as Jake can't do anything like that.

The only one who can do something like that is Demi and that's why everyone thinks she will end up being the Dream for the 10th, even if she has an obvious authority component in her passive power, forcing MC to stay his hand against Clove.

 

[sexoffended]

1.
I don't think this applies to Shen.
The example we have is Jake saying something that Alexis wouldn't care about. Jake could not ask Alexis for the base location and it's not like allowing Jake in a particular room would be terrible, at least not for her.

Once Alexis started viewing Jake as a hostile, all bets were off.
Elijah views Shen as a hostile from the get go, but there is no power contest. The contexts do not match and the narrator says that Shen's power affects the humans, not the Superhumans.

2.
It's quite unlikely for the complex power to be the primary and the simple power to be the secondary. This doesn't really happen.

Jake first learned how to imbue his words with his power, and then how to give specific commands.
MC first learned basic memory reading and then how to consume memories.
MC first learned how to stretch his hands and then how to make tentacles.
Alice first manifested her fist orbs and then her graviton bomb.
Deryl first knew how to make objects and then learned how to make clones and chimera.
Danica first learned to throw light crosses and then she learned how to do the X marks the spot.

The simplest power is almost always the first one. (I'm talking about active ones, because the passive ones always manifest first)
Thinking that the convoluted ability with no exact rules manifested first, compared to just changing the appearence of an object, is a losing bet.

There is no precedent where Memory powers affect an object in relation to a target as MC can't do anything like that.
There is no precedent where Authority powers affect an object in relation to a target as Jake can't do anything like that.

The only one who can do something like that is Demi and that's why everyone thinks she will end up being the Dream for the 10th, even if she has an obvious authority component in her passive power, forcing MC to stay his hand against Clove.

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

2. Dream is primary in utility, not technique. Jake has an array of special attacks, and yet against Alexis he uses words. Same stuff here.

We have an example of HERO's interrogator being able to use Memory to connect to others visually. Demi is unable to control perception of others in any meaningful way. Her power can be better explained by very real psychological phenomenon (

You must be registered to see the links

). She exercises power of desire onto an inanimate object as a medium, entirety within Authority's portfolio with Jake's Imprint and everything else Demi did, and then someone affected by it makes up reason to approach said object, which manifests itself as a hallucination.

 

[myst0501]

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

This isn't quite true. Shen continues to taunt Elijah for a while after via an illusionary double. Elijah, at this point, is well aware that what he is seeing is an illusion, yet he still sees it.

 

[Gtdead]

1. And once Elijah noticed illusions he dissipated them at once. Dream's hold over MC weakens once he noticed it. Authority doesn't get purged as long as you didn't find the exact application of it. And in our case Authority pushes into view very real memories.

2. Dream is primary in utility, not technique. Jake has an array of special attacks, and yet against Alexis he uses words. Same stuff here.

We have an example of HERO's interrogator being able to use Memory to connect to others visually. Demi is unable to control perception of others in any meaningful way. Her power can be better explained by very real psychological phenomenon (

You must be registered to see the links

). She exercises power of desire onto an inanimate object as a medium, entirety within Authority's portfolio with Jake's Imprint and everything else Demi did, and then someone affected by it makes up reason to approach said object, which manifests itself as a hallucination.

1. Elijah just noticed a flicker when he turned his head. He never dispelled the illusion, the Argils still looked like human and the scene was interrupted by Kira landing next to him. And he never dispelled the Eisheth illusions despite knowing that they were fake.

2. Demi has shown to affect perception and you can't explain a power which affects dumb rock monsters on a psychological phenomenon.
That's like trying to argue that dogs are so confident at everything they do because of Dunning-Kruger. Dogs don't even process things like humans do.
If it was just humans I'd entertain it but the C Rank hunt makes this point hard to digest.

Your Jake example is wrong.
Jake forces his Target to imprint to anyone Jake wants. That's why he can make Deryl imprint to Ella despite her not being there.
Jake does not force other people to imprint to his Target.

Every time Jake uses his power, only the affected will act differently, not their satellites, not some random bystander.
This is completely opposite to Demi's power who charms a Target and the others see that Target as an object of desire.

 

[sexoffended]

1. Elijah just noticed a flicker when he turned his head. He never dispelled the illusion, the Argils still looked like human and the scene was interrupted by Kira landing next to him. And he never dispelled the Eisheth illusions despite knowing that they were fake.

2. Demi has shown to affect perception and you can't explain a power which affects dumb rock monsters on a psychological phenomenon.
That's like trying to argue that dogs are so confident at everything they do because of Dunning-Kruger. Dogs don't even process things like humans do.
If it was just humans I'd entertain it but the C Rank hunt makes this point hard to digest.

Your Jake example is wrong.
Jake forces his Target to imprint to anyone Jake wants. That's why he can make Deryl imprint to Ella despite her not being there.
Jake does not force other people to impring to his Target.

Every time Jake uses his power, only the affected will act differently, not their satellites, not some random bystander.
This is completely opposite to Demi's power who charms a Target and the others see that Target as an object of desire.

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

2. Don't be obtuse. It's well established that monsters have minds desires included. Jake's order to run away worked on oil zombies.

I used Imprint as common point to establish that Authority can create and control desires.
And I used Demi as an example of mixed lineage capable of using mediums for Authority powers. Shen has Memory line, therefore capable of using other people to channel his power.

 

[myst0501]

1. Kira said Elijah not to bother dispelling illusions and focus on power perception. It doesn't mean they can't do that. Also Elijah started to see illusions on Argils flicker afterwards. Don't forget about assumed memory component.

Do you have a quote for when Kira says not to bother dispelling the illusions? Because the only thing she says is to put aside his morals and focus on taking down their target.

"The humans shimmer and change, each one of them taking on Eisheth's visage, a thousand of her smirking faces leering at Elijah."
Eisheth "Shall we play some hide and seek?"
Kira "You ready Elijah?"
Elijah "W-Wait, we can't...."
Kira "Now's not the time for your fucking morals Eli. Let's kill this cunt."
Elijah "But the people...."
Kira "Only one of them has power. Sense her, and strike."
Elijah "The collateral damage though, we can't just-"
Kira "So you're just gonna lay down and let this bitch kill you!? How many humans do you think that will save you fucking moron!!"
Kira "The faster we kill her, the faster this ends, the less humans die."
Elijah "I... You're right."

 

[sexoffended]

This isn't quite true. Shen continues to taunt Elijah for a while after via an illusionary double. Elijah, at this point, is well aware that what he is seeing is an illusion, yet he still sees it.

Eli is too busy being a bitch to do anything remotely productive.

 

[sexoffended]

Do you have a quote for when Kira says not to bother dispelling the illusions? Because the only thing she says is to put aside his morals and focus on taking down their target.

Focus on detecting power to target her.

 

[myst0501]

Focus on detecting power to target her.

Right, but that's not my point. You said that kira told him not to bother with dispelling the illusions, and that they still had the ability to do so, but choose not to. Where was that said?

Eli is too busy being a bitch to do anything remotely productive.

Elijah's supposed bitch status is neither here nor their.

 

[sexoffended]

Right, but that's not my point. You said that kira told him not to bother with dispelling the illusions, and that they still had the ability to, but choose not to. Where was that said?


Elijah's supposed status as a bitch is neither here nor their.

Reading comprehension is an important skill.
"Disregard collateral damage and use power sense to do the job" is close to what I said. And Elijah was close to completely shrugging off Shen's influence. Unfortunately, he was too big of sucker to manage it.

Jake's bitch status was the thing that made him unable to force Jared that one time.