VN Ren'Py Abandoned The City of Promise [Ch.1 Remake Bugfix] [TGO Entertainment]

[juan palote]

You are the only one so far i seen that has a big problem with this should he ask you if its oke then ? Maybe if you know how to make a gallery go teach him. But stil he seemed happy about the free roam thing.

Well, only 3 people have posted since the information was made public, several games have made polls about it, and it always lost.

All i say is that the Dev should ask his players before changing the game's GAMEPLAY and not do it based on what 2 people say.

Sadly, by the time he realizes the mistake it will be too late, which is why i seriously think he should ask for feedback before implementing it.

I have seen people giving the code to implement a gallery before. Dont remember on which game, but i am sure if he asks he will get it

 

[Sarkasmus]

Whats the fun in pointless clicking? You want to know what it has wrong with it? It completely ruins immersion, that is what is wrong.

Replay scenes are easily done with a simple gallery, which is what most games do because its the better way to do it.

Sandbox/Free roam is a big no for many players, it will hurt the game more than you and the Dev realize.

I think he should collect more feedback, because he is clearly being wrongly advised if he thinks free roam would help his game

Well, two points regarding that:

1. You claim FreeRoam ruins immersion... but would rather have him implement a Menu-Gallery, than an immersion-friendly solution that uses Free Roam?

2. The claim, that Free Roam will always cost him that many players... I can not agree to that. Go and check out the trending section on this site. 11 out of the 20 games featured on the first page utilize Free Roaming (even though I can not understand why they call it Sandbox). The RPGM-Games contain it by design.

The big question is how it is implemented. Whether you pull an "Indecent desires" (that is universally hated for giving you that vast world without ANY form of guidance, making you click like a madman to TRY and find the next scene), or make something like "

You must be registered to see the links

" or "Midnight Paradise", that actually needs Free Roam.

If you create a game with multiple LIs (this one is supposed to have 12 at some point), you will inevitably have players that would want to ignore the LIs they don't like, or would want to focus on the LIs they favour. If you force LIs in a specific order on them regardless of their preferences, players won't take kindly to that. And I would rather have a Free-Roam-Map to CHOOSE which character I interact with (which would be immersion-friendly) than going through endless choice-menues listing Names whenever I'm asked who I want to see next.

 

[juan palote]

Well, two points regarding that:

1. You claim FreeRoam ruins immersion... but would rather have him implement a Menu-Gallery, than an immersion-friendly solution that uses Free Roam?

2. The claim, that Free Roam will always cost him that many players... I can not agree to that. Go and check out the trending section on this site. 11 out of the 20 games featured on the first page utilize Free Roaming (even though I can not understand why they call it Sandbox). The RPGM-Games contain it by design.

The big question is how it is implemented. Whether you pull an "Indecent desires" (that is universally hated for giving you that vast world without ANY form of guidance, making you click like a madman to TRY and find the next scene), or make something like "

You must be registered to see the links

" or "Midnight Paradise", that actually needs Free Roam.

If you create a game with multiple LIs (this one is supposed to have 12 at some point), you will inevitably have players that would want to ignore the LIs they don't like, or would want to focus on the LIs they favour. If you force LIs in a specific order on them regardless of their preferences, players won't take kindly to that. And I would rather have a Free-Roam-Map to CHOOSE which character I interact with (which would be immersion-friendly) than going through endless choice-menues listing Names whenever I'm asked who I want to see next.

1- To repeat scenes? Of Course it should be in a menu. You are already repeating scenes, you are not looking for immersion there. But when you add Free Roam, you are ruining immersion for those that dont want to repeat scenes and instead just continue with the game in a fluid way.

2- None of the games you see there changed their playstyle from VN to Free Roam. And most of them are games that come from a long time and had their playerbase already established.

About ignoring LI, that can easily be made with a CHOICE (which ironically is what players have been asking to be implemented on this game). That's how VNs deal with LI that you want to ignore.

Free roam is an old concept that is getting behind, and less and less people like it.

Ultimately it will be the Dev's decision, he will have to learn the mistake by doing it because clearly he got the wrong feedback. I wish he would have asked for feedback before implementing something as drastic

 

[Sarkasmus]

1- To repeat scenes? Of Course it should be in a menu. You are already repeating scenes, you are not looking for immersion there. But when you add Free Roam, you are ruining immersion for those that dont want to repeat scenes and instead just continue with the game in a fluid way.

How would you know what I and the other players are looking for? If I liked a scene so much I want to see it again, I could just load up a save-file, sure. Or... I could use the free-roam to actually relive it in an immersive way, that doesn't take me out of the game-flow. That way, I could even influence the story by making different choices, if the dev wants to implement something like that. Which is the most important part here: IF the dev wants to implement something like that. All we know right now is, that this will be a way to relive scenes and events. Don't go off on assuming things. Neither the dev, not anyone else ever claimed the game to become fully Free-Roam.

2- None of the games you see there changed their playstyle from VN to Free Roam. And most of them are games that come from a long time and had their playerbase already established.

Actually, almost ALL of them did. I think only "Man of the house" started out with Free-Roam. Just like this game, most of them started out by setting the plot and introducing the characters and presenting the first interactions with them in a kinetic way. Only over time the Free-Roam option was introduced. Even the RPGM-Games don't exactly feature 30 different locations with 40 characters with the first release... it comes over time.

About ignoring LI, that can easily be made with a CHOICE (which ironically is what players have been asking to be implemented on this game). That's how VNs deal with LI that you want to ignore.

Yes, and No. Choice-Based LI-selection is mostly used to add or drop a LI definitively. Free-Roam would be used if you want to leave the option open... ignore them for now, but come back to them whenever you want. Right now you HAVE TO get with Susan / Samantha or they get pissed as hell. That is Choice-based. And the "Choices" players have been asking for are for different reasons. Because most people simply hated them, which is not what the dev wanted in the first place.

Free roam is an old concept that is getting behind, and less and less people like it.

It is called the Trending-Page... like CURRENTLY Trending. And yes, they absolutely have their fan-base established. But I fail to see how that would somehow change the point. Unless you claim the people who like these games actually hate Free-Roam, and only put up with it because they like the dev so much...

Ultimately it will be the Dev's decision, he will have to learn the mistake by doing it because clearly he got the wrong feedback. I wish he would have asked for feedback before implementing something as drastic

THAT I certainly agree on. As proven with the story having to be rewritten for the second time...

 

[juan palote]

Actually, almost ALL of them did. I think only "Man of the house" started out with Free-Roam. Just like this game, most of them started out by setting the plot and introducing the characters and presenting the first interactions with them in a kinetic way. Only over time the Free-Roam option was introduced. Even the RPGM-Games don't exactly feature 30 different locations with 40 characters with the first release... it comes over time.

I will only reply to this because i feel we are running in circles. All of them started with Free Roam. Of course at the start you only have few locations. But none of the succesful games started as VN and then changed their gameplay to Free Roam.

Also, i never use the trending, but i looked at it and several of those free roam games arent big games and of the oens that are, most are old completed games. I dont know which algorith uses the "trending" pages to list them there. My point is that its and old concept that players outgrew. I played many sandbox/free roam (including most of the ones in the "trending" list), and as many others that have been around here, i stopped because they are nothing more than a nuissance

Anyway, and this i will repeat it, before changing the gameplay of the game, the Dev should be asking for feedback form the people that are playing it.

I can guarantee you if free roam is added, the game will never get up, i have seen it happen, i have been here long enough.

 

[DA22]

I will only reply to this because i feel we are running in circles. All of them started with Free Roam. Of course at the start you only have few locations. But none of the succesful games started as VN and then changed their gameplay to Free Roam.

Also, i never use the trending, but i looked at it and several of those free roam games arent big games and of the oens that are, most are old completed games. I dont know which algorith uses the "trending" pages to list them there. My point is that its and old concept that players outgrew. I played many sandbox/free roam (including most of the ones in the "trending" list), and as many others that have been around here, i stopped because they are nothing more than a nuissance

Anyway, and this i will repeat it, before changing the gameplay of the game, the Dev should be asking for feedback form the people that are playing it.

I can guarantee you if free roam is added, the game will never get up, i have seen it happen, i have been here long enough.

Well never is too big of a word, but if it becomes a big factor with grind and compromises story development or is empty then it will and truthfully there are limited number of devs that are really good at sandboxes or free roam and most release their games to early before it has enough sand to fill that box.

 

[TGO Entertainment]

Hey everyone. I just caught up to the conversation about the "free-roam" piece I'm adding to the game. This feature will have two uses. One will be the ability to replay scenes while I work on a gallery. It was always my plan to add one. Also, I've seen several games that have both a gallery and the ability to rewatch scenes in games. The other is to finish any character's routes you might have missed your first time through a chapter. For example, let's say you focused 100% on Susan during your first play-through. You can now go back and interact with her to view her scenes. At the same time, you can click on Samantha to start or continue her route. I hope that clarifies things a bit.

 

[juan palote]

Hey everyone. I just caught up to the conversation about the "free-roam" piece I'm adding to the game. This feature will have two uses. One will be the ability to replay scenes while I work on a gallery. It was always my plan to add one. Also, I've seen several games that have both a gallery and the ability to rewatch scenes in games. The other is to finish any character's routes you might have missed your first time through a chapter. For example, let's say you focused 100% on Susan during your first play-through. You can now go back and interact with her to view her scenes. At the same time, you can click on Samantha to start or continue her route. I hope that clarifies things a bit.

I have already given you my feedback. What you are doing is a mistake. I am fed up with sandbox and free roam games, you will lose players like me with this.

This is a big change, you should really consider asking for feedback (ideally after publishing a new release, since it will be when your thread will have more traffic). Its never a good idea to introduce a big gameplay change without having feedback about it.

And as i said before, this will take development time that you should be using in tackling the problems your game has, which none are being tackled by this "free roam".

IMHO you are making a mistake that could cost you dearly.

In the end, its your decision, but think it thoroughly. Think how many games you have seen around here that changed their playstyle and succeeded.

 

[Sarkasmus]

Hey everyone. I just caught up to the conversation about the "free-roam" piece I'm adding to the game. This feature will have two uses. One will be the ability to replay scenes while I work on a gallery. It was always my plan to add one. Also, I've seen several games that have both a gallery and the ability to rewatch scenes in games. The other is to finish any character's routes you might have missed your first time through a chapter. For example, let's say you focused 100% on Susan during your first play-through. You can now go back and interact with her to view her scenes. At the same time, you can click on Samantha to start or continue her route. I hope that clarifies things a bit.

Hmm, if it's really like that, I have to agree with juan palote.
I initially thought you would just implement this Tunnel-Button that takes me to a "scene" in which I get to choose where to go, then lists the residents of that place and offers me a dialogue with them, to repeat some activity... not to ACTUALLY move through the world.

There are very few examples of well made Free-Roam... not just on this site. Keep in Mind, the very moment people have to search for the place to continue the story... it's bad. It's frustrating and takes me out of the game. It also doesn't help if I have a walkthrough to find it faster. The fact I had to look it up in the first place is just as bad as having to look through locations in hopes of finding a scene-trigger. I also prefer to just be told a story I can partake in. I don't get any excitement out of looking for it. So it heavily relies on your story-writing and how much you rely on that mechanic.

*EDIT*
It's not as easy to put into words as I thought... Let me say it this way: We are here for the Visual Novels. Not to play Point-and-Click Adventures. The navigation through your game should come to the player naturally.
Now please don't think I'm trying to attack you. But going by the design-choices you made before (with the weird mini-games that had nothing to do with the actual story, e.g.)... I'm not sure you can pull that off.

 

[v1900]

Hmm, if it's really like that, I have to agree with juan palote.
I initially thought you would just implement this Tunnel-Button that takes me to a "scene" in which I get to choose where to go, then lists the residents of that place and offers me a dialogue with them, to repeat some activity... not to ACTUALLY move through the world.

There are very few examples of well made Free-Roam... not just on this site. Keep in Mind, the very moment people have to search for the place to continue the story... it's bad. It's frustrating and takes me out of the game. It also doesn't help if I have a walkthrough to find it faster. The fact I had to look it up in the first place is just as bad as having to look through locations in hopes of finding a scene-trigger. I also prefer to just be told a story I can partake in. I don't get any excitement out of looking for it. So it heavily relies on your story-writing and how much you rely on that mechanic.

*EDIT*
It's not as easy to put into words as I thought... Let me say it this way: We are here for the Visual Novels. Not to play Point-and-Click Adventures. The navigation through your game should come to the player naturally.

All right let me grab some booze and lets get cracking. It occurs to me it could be implemented as a hub you get taken to after story events. This hub could be MC's bedroom. Every time you get taken to the hub you are asked if you want to progress the story or take a brake and visit a LI to repeat a scene. If you opt to visit a LI it should take you to her without the need to click through every room (maybe just a brief animation/transition).

What do you think about this?

 

[Sarkasmus]

All right let me grab some booze and lets get cracking. It occurs to me it could be implemented as a hub you get taken to after story events. This hub could be MC's bedroom. Every time you get taken to the hub you are asked if you want to progress the story or take a brake and visit a LI to repeat a scene. If you opt to visit a LI it should take you to her without the need to click through every room (maybe just a brief animation/transition).

What do you think about this?

Well, for me personally, there is only one example of free-roam I didn't mind at all. The game was called "Ambition". Sadly it was one of those devs who just vanished...

His free-roam was solely used for the world map. Like, I went to some location in the city and the story for that character continued. And thanks to his writing style, I always just knew where I had to go without any need for a walkthrough or map-markers (even though those are always a nice touch). No door-clicking, no navigating through rooms, no "Be at this location at this specific time of day"-shit. If I remember correctly, I couldn't even click on locations that wouldn't trigger a story-event.
It always felt like I was following the story despite having to use a map. It actually added to the immersion, since I actually "went" to that location instead of just suddenly being told I went somewhere.

*EDIT*
Oh, and after starting the story-event, the Free-Roam was gone. If the character wanted to go shopping with MC, I didn't have to open the map and choose the clothing store... They just went there. I really liked that.

 

[juan palote]

Hmm, if it's really like that, I have to agree with juan palote.
I initially thought you would just implement this Tunnel-Button that takes me to a "scene" in which I get to choose where to go, then lists the residents of that place and offers me a dialogue with them, to repeat some activity... not to ACTUALLY move through the world.

There are very few examples of well made Free-Roam... not just on this site. Keep in Mind, the very moment people have to search for the place to continue the story... it's bad. It's frustrating and takes me out of the game. It also doesn't help if I have a walkthrough to find it faster. The fact I had to look it up in the first place is just as bad as having to look through locations in hopes of finding a scene-trigger. I also prefer to just be told a story I can partake in. I don't get any excitement out of looking for it. So it heavily relies on your story-writing and how much you rely on that mechanic.

*EDIT*
It's not as easy to put into words as I thought... Let me say it this way: We are here for the Visual Novels. Not to play Point-and-Click Adventures. The navigation through your game should come to the player naturally.
Now please don't think I'm trying to attack you. But going by the design-choices you made before (with the weird mini-games that had nothing to do with the actual story, e.g.)... I'm not sure you can pull that off.

Not only what you say here.

Currently, we have one single choice that has any impact at all in the game and where the MC actually decides something. That choice is if we choose to progress with one of the girls in the house or with both.

Its the only chocie that actually means something, and one of the criticisms we have been making to the game is the lack of choices. This "Free Roam" that the Dev proposes allows me to remove the effect of that choice, effectively leaving the game without any significant chocies at all.

I dont think that is good.

So its not only that Free Roam in general in this kind of games is bad, but this particular Free Roam would actually make some of the weak points in the game even worse.

 

[juan palote]

All right let me grab some booze and lets get cracking. It occurs to me it could be implemented as a hub you get taken to after story events. This hub could be MC's bedroom. Every time you get taken to the hub you are asked if you want to progress the story or take a brake and visit a LI to repeat a scene. If you opt to visit a LI it should take you to her without the need to click through every room (maybe just a brief animation/transition).

What do you think about this?

Its unnecessary. This is already solved with a simple gallery, there is no point in further complexity. You want to repeat a scene? Go to the gallery.

You want to keep progressing the story? Load your save and keep playing.

You want to nulify a previous choice? You shouldnt be able to do it. Choosing to progress with a single girl instead of both should mean something. If you want both, choose both. Simple.

I dont want to repeat myself, but the Dev is using development time in something that would actually make a weak point in the game actually weaker

 

[Sarkasmus]

Its the only chocie that actually means something, and one of the criticisms we have been making to the game is the lack of choices. This "Free Roam" that the Dev proposes allows me to remove the effect of that choice, effectively leaving the game without any significant chocies at all.

I dont think that is good.

I didn't even think of that. So basically the dev needs to decide what he wants to make:
A Visual Novel with choice-based paths in which the player creates his own story... or a medium to simply show off his animations he put into a somewhat coherent backstory.

 

[juan palote]

I didn't even think of that. So basically the dev needs to decide what he wants to make:
A Visual Novel with choice-based paths in which the player creates his own story... or a medium to simply show off his animations he put into a somewhat coherent backstory.

He needs to decide between this:

He makes a Kinetic novel with minigames (currently).

He makes a Visual Novel with choices

He makes a Point and click Adventure where you can do anything at any time as long as you can figure out where you need to go to do it

Those are the options. I would honestly be fine with any of the two firsts, i play Kinetic Novels and Visual novels just fine. But i would leave running as fast as the roadrunner as soon as the third is made, because i have made the mistake to get involved with games like that too many times already. I even left Mythic Manor, which has a very clear hint system that pretty much tells you what to do next because i am sick of Free Roam/Sandbox

 

[Sarkasmus]

He needs to decide between this:

He makes a Kinetic novel with minigames (currently).

He makes a Visual Novel with choices

He makes a Point and click Adventure where you can do anything at any time as long as you can figure out where you need to go to do it

Those are the options. I would honestly be fine with any of the two firsts, i play Kinetic Novels and Visual novels just fine. But i would leave running as fast as the roadrunner as soon as the third is made, because i have made the mistake to get involved with games like that too many times already. I even left Mythic Manor, which has a very clear hint system that pretty much tells you what to do next because i am sick of Free Roam/Sandbox

Sorry, but I intentionally didn't call it a kinetic novel.
Kinetic Novels have a set sequence of scenes and dialogues you follow, without any possibility for the player to influence either of them. Since this game currently gives you the option to ignore a girl which changes the dialogues, and also influences the content of future events (according to Susan we get a "special treat" during the Ceremony if we spend equal time with both of them), this is by no means a kinetic novel. Did you even notice that there are vastly different dialogues based on which outfits you choose for them?

 

[v1900]

Its unnecessary. This is already solved with a simple gallery, there is no point in further complexity. You want to repeat a scene? Go to the gallery.

You want to keep progressing the story? Load your save and keep playing.

You want to nulify a previous choice? You shouldnt be able to do it. Choosing to progress with a single girl instead of both should mean something. If you want both, choose both. Simple.

I dont want to repeat myself, but the Dev is using development time in something that would actually make a weak point in the game actually weaker

About the gallery, it need not be cumbersome it could be a rudimentary menu (remember its a stopgap measure) hidden in MC pc. To be honest I would never use it, not to sound disrespectful to the dev but HS based renders are crap that you see once and forget. I am here for the story but if the dev wants to try it its cool.

Now your second point is much more interesting and I do agree, it lessens the impact of decisions. I can only speculate about the reason the dev wants to have independent paths that you can later continue. My theory is that it is an easy way to keep the freedom to continue the story without cornering himself later on.

For example imagine that you never gave the light of day to MC's mom because she rubs you the wrong way but she is an important character for the plot (it appears she is the one with the plan and the one building up your harem). So you are half way through the game and decide to throw her a bone. The dev can now trigger new dialogue and avoid minigames to make a sub path to reflect that she is getting the crumbs while using almost all the original renders. The dev can more or less get the freedom to change the game based on feedback quickly (because lets face it we have being giving him crap every release ).

 

[juan palote]

About the gallery, it need not be cumbersome it could be a rudimentary menu (remember its a stopgap measure) hidden in MC pc. To be honest I would never use it, not to sound disrespectful to the dev but HS based renders are crap that you see once and forget. I am here for the story but if the dev wants to try it its cool.

Now your second point is much more interesting and I do agree, it lessens the impact of decisions. I can only speculate about the reason the dev wants to have independent paths that you can later continue. My theory is that it is an easy way to keep the freedom to continue the story without cornering himself later on.

For example imagine that you never gave the light of day to MC's mom because she rubs you the wrong way but she is an important character for the plot (it appears she is the one with the plan and the one building up your harem). So you are half way through the game and decide to throw her a bone. The dev can now trigger new dialogue and avoid minigames to make a sub path to reflect that she is getting the crumbs while using almost all the original renders. The dev can more or less get the freedom to change the game based on feedback quickly (because lets face it we have being giving him crap every release ).

From what i could gather form the Dev feedback, this Free Roam comes from a reaction to some players feedback, and not out of some future branch issue.

In any way, we have been "giving him crap", some more than others. But none of that crap that anyone has given him, at least on this thread (i dont know about private conversations) is being solved by this Free Roam.

From what i can remember from the thread, the biggest complaints were about:

* Drug issue. Partially tackled. Enough has been said. It doesnt bother that much to me currently.

* Story not making that much sense (i suppose its because we are too early)

* MC Beta personality (this is honestly my biggest gripe)

* Lack of meaningful choices (not that big of a deal to me but it has been raised by others). This is actually being made worse by the proposed Free Roam

* Buggy and annoying minigames (this is my second gripe, i dont think they add much to the game honestly)

And i think those were the major complaints. The proposed Free Roam does nothing for most of the complaints, except making one even worse. It does add more complaints, those that come with the Sandbox/Free Roam gameplay.

Honestly, i think the Dev should focus on the major complaints and weak points of the game instead of making such a big change that will very likely introduce new problems (lets face it, we still have buggy minigames, and we are getting a Free Roam? what are the chances of not being buggy?).

If those problems I listed are being fixed, or even just improved, the game becomes significantly better.

I am trying to help the Dev here, thats why i am so adamant on this discussion.

 

[v1900]

From what i could gather form the Dev feedback, this Free Roam comes from a reaction to some players feedback, and not out of some future branch issue.

In any way, we have been "giving him crap", some more than others. But none of that crap that anyone has given him, at least on this thread (i dont know about private conversations) is being solved by this Free Roam.

From what i can remember from the thread, the biggest complaints were about:

* Drug issue. Partially tackled. Enough has been said. It doesnt bother that much to me currently.

* Story not making that much sense (i suppose its because we are too early)

* MC Beta personality (this is honestly my biggest gripe)

* Lack of meaningful choices (not that big of a deal to me but it has been raised by others). This is actually being made worse by the proposed Free Roam

* Buggy and annoying minigames (this is my second gripe, i dont think they add much to the game honestly)

And i think those were the major complaints. The proposed Free Roam does nothing for most of the complaints, except making one even worse. It does add more complaints, those that come with the Sandbox/Free Roam gameplay.

Honestly, i think the Dev should focus on the major complaints and weak points of the game instead of making such a big change that will very likely introduce new problems (lets face it, we still have buggy minigames, and we are getting a Free Roam? what are the chances of not being buggy?).

If those problems I listed are being fixed, or even just improved, the game becomes significantly better.

I am trying to help the Dev here, thats why i am so adamant on this discussion.

Now that you touch the issue, I did read a few posts back that he is reworking the game, yet again. Is it just the mechanics that he is reworking or the plot as well?

Because the levels of testosterone the MC should have had during puberty to grow that baby arm and to maintain it erect, shit dose levels should guarantee aggression problems and yet we have a lamb.

Ah shit I just hope the free roam crap is kept to a minimum. I'll just wait until the update drops to shit on the dev's party.

 

[Sarkasmus]

Now that you touch the issue, I did read a few posts back that he is reworking the game, yet again. Is it just the mechanics that he is reworking or the plot as well?

Because the levels of testosterone the MC should have had during puberty to grow that baby arm and to maintain it erect, shit dose levels should guarantee aggression problems and yet we have a lamb.

Ah shit I just hope the free roam crap is kept to a minimum. I'll just wait until the update drops to shit on the dev's party.

From his patreon-post:

Hey all. I've been busy with a few things for the next update.

First off, what I'm calling the Love and Redemption Update - after viewing a lot of the feedback online I've gone back to Chapter 1 for some major additions. I can't go into details now but Susan and (especially) Samantha are turning into far more loving and redeemable characters. Also working on improving the MC's reaction to everything that's happening with him.

It then goes off to talk about the new free-roam mechanic.

Honestly, it's like I said previously. I really hope he makes them actually redeem themselves, and doesn't just change some dialogue. I don't like them... that won't change easily, since I got to know them in that unloveable way.