VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.4.0] [Ceolag]

[xapican]

As you know I am against the Templars...this is not just an in-game choice.

Ultimately (and not something I've seen discussed in detail yet) we could do with knowing (Ceolag ??) to what extent the templars are based on when it comes to real life history and their origins beginning with King Solomon. Sure they did some good...but they were no longer the good guys as soon as they became a political organisation fixated with christian religious fanatical beliefs that tried to take over Europe. Did they originally help poor folk? Sure. Did they also slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Sure, they also did that too.

Without knowing the devs actual intention regarding them (the old adage of...when did we become the bad guys?) it's difficult to really make a decision as to whether to trust them or not. However, even since their inception almost a thousand years ago, their traces still remain to this day (most notably within the Freemasons) and sorry, but no iteration of them has ever really been of the 'good guys'...

This is one of the main reasons this VN interests me, the Templars have long been a fascination to me as a historical subject.

I share this facination with the Knight Templars, although I have a more benevolent view of the Original Order.
TLDR: The Order is originated from the St Francis brotherhood, they were the Armed arm of the Vatican in former days
they had to vow "humilty, and poorness" no personal posesions for them, also they live under the celibate, originally the order protected the trading routes, and the merchant caravans from the sacred land to europe they are called Knight Templars because they headquarter was the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, they were Monks, with habits, and trained in combat, they become like an elite corps within the years, they also had a system that when a rich Busnisess man wanted to carry gold from one city to another he went to the next templar post paid there and get a document back acrediting him to recive the same amout back once reached the destination paid from the treasure of the post.
The Order became wealthy and powerfull trough out the years, and rivalized with the St Johns order of the Hospitalarian knights.
Anyways they were an "Hermetic order withing the St Francis brotherhood" with strong rules and own rituals.
Im researching them, and other Hermetic organisations since almost 16 yrs now, I only can encourage you to look for material, and make your own picture about them.
Of course they were a few "rotten eggs" within the great masters,
The fact that their finacial power, plus military power, and their own secret rituals, contributed to their diapearace, It was one French King who needed the money of them and one pope who felt threatend by their power to take them down using the "Holy Inquisition" fun fact is that the unlucky friday 13 is founded by the raid to catch the great master of the Knight Templars in France. after that the order got disolved by the Vatican, and their great grandmasters excomunicated, inprisoned, and executed, anyway the Order surived as and Hermetic brotherhood In Spain, Germany, England and South France.
Edit: this is a brief and incomplete resume from what I remeber out of my head, I don't want to go into a detailed discuassion or getting corrected by some if someone is intersted in the historical facts, go and make your own picture about it.

 

[Slick Bean]

Israeli soldiers entered Gaza to wage war on somebody they did not even identify or seek out,
does this make them assholes and murderors just like all the knights who slaughtered everyone in Jerusalem centuries ago to ”take the city for Christ” ???

Well she is not a soldier though, she is a cult devotee.

Also good soldiers does not follow orders blindly, they do follow laws. It is a weak defence when you are court marshalled. Or when you get a trial at Hague. After all, almost all military around the world has a law about disobeying unlawful orders.

View attachment 3192468

Jokes aside, the situation is very 50/50

Spoiler: the situation

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

As you know I am against the Templars...this is not just an in-game choice.

Ultimately (and not something I've seen discussed in detail yet) we could do with knowing (Ceolag ??) to what extent the templars are based on when it comes to real life history and their origins beginning with King Solomon. Sure they did some good...but they were no longer the good guys as soon as they became a political organisation fixated with christian religious fanatical beliefs that tried to take over Europe. Did they originally help poor folk? Sure. Did they also slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Sure, they also did that too.

Without knowing the devs actual intention regarding them (the old adage of...when did we become the bad guys?) it's difficult to really make a decision as to whether to trust them or not. However, even since their inception almost a thousand years ago, their traces still remain to this day (most notably within the Freemasons) and sorry, but no iteration of them has ever really been of the 'good guys'...

This is one of the main reasons this VN interests me, the Templars have long been a fascination to me as a historical subject.

I share this facination with the Knight Templars, although I have a more benevolent view of the Original Order.
TLDR: The Order is originated from the St Francis brotherhood, they were the Armed arm of the Vatican in former days
they had to vow "humilty, and poorness" no personal posesions for them, also they live under the celibate, originally the order protected the trading routes, and the merchant caravans from the sacred land to europe they are called Knight Templars because they headquarter was the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, they were Monks, with habits, and trained in combat, they become like an elite corps within the years, they also had a system that when a rich Busnisess man wanted to carry gold from one city to another he went to the next templar post paid there and get a document back acrediting him to recive the same amout back once reached the destination paid from the treasure of the post.
The Order became wealthy and powerfull trough out the years, and rivalized with the St Johns order of the Hospitalarian knights.
Anyways they were an "Hermetic order withing the St Francis brotherhood" with strong rules and own rituals.
Im researching them, and other Hermetic organisations since almost 16 yrs now, I only can encourage you to look for material, and make your own picture about them.
Of course they were a few "rotten eggs" within the great masters,
The fact that their finacial power, plus military power, and their own secret rituals, contributed to their diapearace, It was one French King who needed the money of them and one pope who felt threatend by their power to take them down using the "Holy Inquisition" fun fact is that the unlucky friday 13 is founded by the raid to catch the great master of the Knight Templars in France. after that the order got disolved by the Vatican, and their great grandmasters excomunicated, inprisoned, and executed, anyway the Order surived as and Hermetic brotherhood In Spain, Germany, England and South France.
Edit: this is a brief and incomplete resume from what I remeber out of my head, I don't want to go into a detailed discuassion or getting corrected by some if someone is intersted in the historical facts, go and make your own picture about it.

 

[Dark Silence]

I share this facination with the Knight Templars, although I have a more benevolent view of the Original Order.
TLDR: The Order is originated from the St Francis brotherhood, they were the Armed arm of the Vatican in former days
they had to vow "humilty, and poorness" no personal posesions for them, also they live under the celibate, originally the order protected the trading routes, and the merchant caravans from the sacred land to europe they are called Knight Templars because they headquarter was the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, they were Monks, with habits, and trained in combat, they become like an elite corps within the years, they also had a system that when a rich Busnisess man wanted to carry gold from one city to another he went to the next templar post paid there and get a document back acrediting him to recive the same amout back once reached the destination paid from the treasure of the post.
The Order became wealthy and powerfull trough out the years, and rivalized with the St Johns order of the Hospitalarian knights.
Anyways they were an "Hermetic order withing the St Francis brotherhood" with strong rules and own rituals.
Im researching them, and other Hermetic organisations since almost 16 yrs now, I only can encourage you to look for material, and make your own picture about them.
Of course they were a few "rotten eggs" within the great masters,
The fact that their finacial power, plus military power, and their own secret rituals, contributed to their diapearace, It was one French King who needed the money of them and one pope who felt threatend by their power to take them down using the "Holy Inquisition" fun fact is that the unlucky friday 13 is founded by the raid to catch the great master of the Knight Templars in France. after that the order got disolved by the Vatican, and their great grandmasters excomunicated, inprisoned, and executed, anyway the Order surived as and Hermetic brotherhood In Spain, Germany, England and South France.
Edit: this is a brief and incomplete resume from what I remeber out of my head, I don't want to go into a detailed discuassion or getting corrected by some if someone is intersted in the historical facts, go and make your own picture about it.

One thing none of you mention is the fact that Pope Clement V absolved the Templars. But King Philip IV put pressure on the church and he later reversed his decision and suppressed the order in 1312. So, now do more research and you'll find out that the king owed the Templars and that is why he wanted them destroyed. Who really cares though? Fuck the Templars.

 

[Maviarab]

One thing none of you mention is the fact that Pope Clement V absolved the Templars. But King Philip IV put pressure on the church and he later reversed his decision and suppressed the order in 1312. So, now do more research and you'll find out that the king owed the Templars and that is why he wanted them destroyed. Who really cares though? Fuck the Templars.

 

[Dark Silence]

View attachment 3192616

 

[xapican]

Israeli soldiers entered Gaza to wage war on somebody they did not even identify or seek out,
does this make them assholes and murderors just like all the knights who slaughtered everyone in Jerusalem centuries ago to ”take the city for Christ” ???

I'll ask you politely to refrain, of comparing situations, which are too controversial.
In both cases the information at hand is only the tip of the iceberg.
You think the Kinght Templars are a bunch of Assholes and Murderers so be it! you think they are paladins of the Good and rightous? so be it as well.
you feel that you have to put in a jab or throw the discord apple? ok do it! the war in the near east is a political, ethnical topic.
the History facts about a disapeared order are not, by the way the Historical facts about the Assesins are equal fascinating and marvelous.

 

[xapican]

One thing none of you mention is the fact that Pope Clement V absolved the Templars. But King Philip IV put pressure on the church and he later reversed his decision and suppressed the order in 1312. So, now do more research and you'll find out that the king owed the Templars and that is why he wanted them destroyed. Who really cares though? Fuck the Templars.

Totally acurate ! I just wasn't shure, about the names, so I omited them.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

View attachment 3192468

Jokes aside, the situation is very 50/50

Spoiler: the situation

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I think that is the most dangerous cult type, when they built their cult on top of something legitimate. They do not care anything but their own profit and they justify that on the foundation they have built their cult on.
I don't know Ceolag did that on purpose, though questioning them through MC suggests he did, they always show their ugly face to MC but their members including Kaija fail to see that.

When MC asks about innocent people who die over simply asking the right questions, Linnae simply brushes it off and avoid to answer. MC immediately sees what was wrong but neither Kaija nor Linnae does, even worse they justify it.
They simply position themselves over humans, they claim to protect them but they only do that as long as that serves to their profit.

MC questions Kaija, how far she is willing to go for the order and he was shocked when he noticed how deep the chasm was. She was, only in love path, willing to stop if and only if MC faces certain death. The other path is simply just disgusting.

When MC saves Medb's life, council members immediately think to use his right to their own benefit and they are even see themselves in right, up to the point that they got angry MC wasted his wish on trivial thing such as saving his father's life. They don't even see that MC was not part of Templars and does not serve them, hence he was not oblige to use his life debt right to their benefit. As they see it, everyone should serve them if they don't they are delusional enough to scold them.

Time and time they mentioned Elves, the bad guys according to the Templars, are always keep their promises. When MC earned the swords due to ancient rituals, one of the council member was ready to break the rule to keep the sword. Even tried to use petty way to misguide MC to downplay the worth of the sword. He should have been the pillar of the Templars but he was ready to cheat. So even Elves was better at keeping their words.

When Linnae ordered them solve their personal problems, which is created by them at the first place. Kaija literally blamed MC of Paul's death. Whole conversation was revolting but when she started giving a sermon how noble and righteous Templars are, she was ready to put the blame of wrongdoings on others easily. When MC reminded her about his position, she noticed how she was not even aware of it. How blind she was to MC and his suffering.

If we dive deeper, I am pretty sure we can find clues and facts about how horrible Templars are, how manipulative their ways are, how single minded they are etc. So they are just a textbook cult and one of the worst kind of it. They are dangerous not because what are they capable of but also the mindset of them. They think so highly of them, others dying for them nothing more than collateral damages.

I especially like when Ceolag questions their path through MC though, he always asks the right questions. This game is nothing short of a perfect story. Thanks for that.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

On the other hand, the elves seem rather intent on getting rid of the humans in honor of an ancient offense,
which gives meaning to the existence of the Templars. Not to mention that there is probably a third faction that most likely wants to eliminate the first two

We only saw the Templar POV though, as far as I understood especially from the last chapter Elves weren't the one who was on offensive. Whatever that 3rd party is, actively attacking and provoking Elves. Also, putting blame on humans. I don't know how everyone missed that but Elves were fighting within human city, Medb the ambassador of elves almost assassinated by a human made weapon. Can you see how big the backlash would be, if assassin was successful. Elven ambassador dies, bunch of elves with her by a human made weapon. Hellspawn corpses litter everywhere which basically suggest Templars and Hellspawn were in alliance. Probably kidnapping of Robert was part of similar provocation, which made Elves react.

I think at least one, probably more than one of the Templars working for that so called third party. They are provoking war between Elves and humans for whatever reason, using hellspawn as pawns. Also I believe whatever happened in the past that made Elves and Humans enemies is the same as whatever is going on right now.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

I think that is the most dangerous cult type, when they built their cult on top of something legitimate. They do not care anything but their own profit and they justify that on the foundation they have built their cult on.
I don't know Ceolag did that on purpose, though questioning them through MC suggests he did, they always show their ugly face to MC but their members including Kaija fail to see that.

When MC asks about innocent people who die over simply asking the right questions, Linnae simply brushes it off and avoid to answer. MC immediately sees what was wrong but neither Kaija nor Linnae does, even worse they justify it.
They simply position themselves over humans, they claim to protect them but they only do that as long as that serves to their profit.

MC questions Kaija, how far she is willing to go for the order and he was shocked when he noticed how deep the chasm was. She was, only in love path, willing to stop if and only if MC faces certain death. The other path is simply just disgusting.

When MC saves Medb's life, council members immediately think to use his right to their own benefit and they are even see themselves in right, up to the point that they got angry MC wasted his wish on trivial thing such as saving his father's life. They don't even see that MC was not part of Templars and does not serve them, hence he was not oblige to use his life debt right to their benefit. As they see it, everyone should serve them if they don't they are delusional enough to scold them.

Time and time they mentioned Elves, the bad guys according to the Templars, are always keep their promises. When MC earned the swords due to ancient rituals, one of the council member was ready to break the rule to keep the sword. Even tried to use petty way to misguide MC to downplay the worth of the sword. He should have been the pillar of the Templars but he was ready to cheat. So even Elves was better at keeping their words.

When Linnae ordered them solve their personal problems, which is created by them at the first place. Kaija literally blamed MC of Paul's death. Whole conversation was revolting but when she started giving a sermon how noble and righteous Templars are, she was ready to put the blame of wrongdoings on others easily. When MC reminded her about his position, she noticed how she was not even aware of it. How blind she was to MC and his suffering.

If we dive deeper, I am pretty sure we can find clues and facts about how horrible Templars are, how manipulative their ways are, how single minded they are etc. So they are just a textbook cult and one of the worst kind of it. They are dangerous not because what are they capable of but also the mindset of them. They think so highly of them, others dying for them nothing more than collateral damages.

I especially like when Ceolag questions their path through MC though, he always asks the right questions. This game is nothing short of a perfect story. Thanks for that.

I mostly agree with you. But personally I don't see them much as a cult, the same problems are often seen in scandals regarding secret services or foreign policies.

I think at least one, probably more than one of the Templars working for that so called third party. They are provoking war between Elves and humans for whatever reason, using hellspawn as pawns. Also I believe whatever happened in the past that made Elves and Humans enemies is the same as whatever is going on right now.

It's a very real possibility, my money's on council member Jason Statham

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

I mostly agree with you. But personally I don't see them much as a cult, the same problems are often seen in scandals regarding secret services or foreign policies.

It does but these scandalous acts almost always benefits everyone but in cults there are devotees and benefactors which is the case for the Templars. Let's look at Kaija, does she benefit from Templars in any way? I don't think so, she is just a mindless drone who follows orders religiously. We don't met many Templars yet but I don't think most of them benefit from Templars, they are just devotees people who rule the Order, most likely use them with whatever that cause them devote themselves to the Order. It can be feeling important, feeling part of a group, martyrdom, protect and serve people, feeling strong, duty etc. Higher ups uses these devotions to manipulate them to do the deeds that benefits them.

It's a very real possibility, my money's on council member Jason Statham

Most likely but we may have get a twist from that. Also, steroid-Kevin is most likely part of that.

 

[xapican]

Jason is hungry for power, the other one is more greedy if you ask me he is too quiet, for my taste even the other woman shows more of her personality than him.
So with Jason I'm not shure if he is not a pawn I think the other Council member is the Brain and Jason is somehow tricked to act to his convinence.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

At this point the good Ceolag will contradict all our speculations by showing us that the Templars are just too stupid XD

 

[xapican]

If he ever makes his way back from the Greek restaurant that is...

 

[Grumpy Old Aussie]

We only saw the Templar POV though, as far as I understood especially from the last chapter Elves weren't the one who was on offensive. Whatever that 3rd party is, actively attacking and provoking Elves. Also, putting blame on humans. I don't know how everyone missed that but Elves were fighting within human city, Medb the ambassador of elves almost assassinated by a human made weapon. Can you see how big the backlash would be, if assassin was successful. Elven ambassador dies, bunch of elves with her by a human made weapon. Hellspawn corpses litter everywhere which basically suggest Templars and Hellspawn were in alliance. Probably kidnapping of Robert was part of similar provocation, which made Elves react.

I think at least one, probably more than one of the Templars working for that so called third party. They are provoking war between Elves and humans for whatever reason, using hellspawn as pawns. Also I believe whatever happened in the past that made Elves and Humans enemies is the same as whatever is going on right now.

You could be right there. The Templars come across to me as a stagnant order who have been holding the status quo for so long they have lost their way. The leadership group is indecisive and rotten. One of the council may see the only way to change things is to upset the status quo. War changes things, and there is nothing like war to shake up an old crusty organisation or bring it down. Our MC is someone the Templars need to shake up things, some fresh blood so to speak not restrained by archaic rules and tradition by prepared to get things done even if it means breaking the rules.

Its been a fun discussion between all involved. As to the question of the real Templars. I like the real Templars, like any human organisation, they had their faults, but they were unique, innovative, and I think did far more good than bad. Their downfall was one of Europe's tragedies. Unfortunately, their legacy has been taken over by decades of conspiracy theorists and shady "experts" out to make a quick buck by peddling fanciful nonsense.

 

[Ceolag]

As you know I am against the Templars...this is not just an in-game choice.

Ultimately (and not something I've seen discussed in detail yet) we could do with knowing (Ceolag ??) to what extent the templars are based on when it comes to real life history and their origins beginning with King Solomon. Sure they did some good...but they were no longer the good guys as soon as they became a political organisation fixated with christian religious fanatical beliefs that tried to take over Europe. Did they originally help poor folk? Sure. Did they also slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Sure, they also did that too.

Without knowing the devs actual intention regarding them (the old adage of...when did we become the bad guys?) it's difficult to really make a decision as to whether to trust them or not. However, even since their inception almost a thousand years ago, their traces still remain to this day (most notably within the Freemasons) and sorry, but no iteration of them has ever really been of the 'good guys'...

This is one of the main reasons this VN interests me, the Templars have long been a fascination to me as a historical subject.

They're based on the historical facts up to 1312 when they got disbanded. Everything later is fiction from my side.
Everything before sticks (mostly) to historical facts. But you already saw in this thread that there's still room for interpretation of those facts.
It might have parallels to other fiction, to other myths/legends, but they're not based on the Templars of Assassins Creed or any other series.

 

[Regularus]

For people interested in the historical Knight Templars Order.

Something to note is that while the Templar order was itself destroyed with the french king Philip IV influence over the pope Clement V under the pretense of heresy, the portuguese king Denis created the Order of Christ that assembled the surviving members of the Knight Templars (as a thanks to their role in the Reconquista), that new order was then recognized officially from the King Denis agreements with the pope John XXII (that was the successor of Clement V)

That Order of Christ survived through times and still exist , but not as a militant then secular knight order anymore but as an honorary one since a couple of centuries, with the order grandmaster title being assigned to the current president of Portugal.

I wonder if that could be the "3rd party" in term of Neverwhere Tales story, the "new" Templar order trying to take over the Castle from the "old" Templar order.

 

[xapican]

How you presented the "Order" and the structure was pretty accurate, also the focus on the Codex; it is pretty acurate I liked it personally a lot!
Looking forward to how the story evolves, you are doing an outstanding Job.

 

[Defenestrator.for.traitor]

Looking forward to how the story evolves, you are doing an outstanding Job.

 

[KingKraven]

Love this game. Thank you, Ceolag. A question though. How many LIs are there and are Mary and Linnae LIs?