VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[justin.case]

I might need to replay it, but at least on the love path my understanding was that she refused to start a relationship just to be close. Therefore, she originally was spending time with MC just as a friend. And then, before she knew it and without intent, the friendship had become something more. So her spending time with MC as a friend was part of her mission, but that transition into a relationship wasn't planned on her part and just happened naturally; hence, organic.

They basically put them together in a room, nothing was organic there. If someone says organic about relationship, I understand those 2 people met in natural order of their life, they grow closer and be in a relationship. Their relationship as organic as Stockholm syndrome.

She was already your friend I thought. Maybe before she was even a member of the order?

Timeline basically goes like this, correct me if I am wrong.

• MC and Kaija becomes friends.
• Kaija unofficially joins Templars. Starts training, not much info here.(I am guessing around her grandfather's death.)
• Kaija becomes 18 and officially joins.
• Ordered to be close to MC, refused, ordered to protect him whichever way she choose etc. all the shenanigans.
• Kaija starts to protect MC, stays close as a friend.
• MC and Kaija became lovers.
• Kaija starts to love MC. (Yeah, after they became lovers because she said at the beginning nothing was real. Though it's a gradual process, so cannot certainly pinpoint.)
• They move in together.

 

[xapican]

I might need to replay it, but at least on the love path my understanding was that she refused to start a relationship just to be close. Therefore, she originally was spending time with MC just as a friend. And then, before she knew it and without intent, the friendship had become something more. So her spending time with MC as a friend was part of her mission, but that transition into a relationship wasn't planned on her part and just happened naturally; hence, organic.

Well that is right Kaija is MC childhood friend judging by the flashback on (neutral and Love) that if you talk with her on the bench about it that is.

 

[Rehwyn]

They basically put them together in a room, nothing was organic there. If someone says organic about relationship, I understand those 2 people met in natural order of their life, they grow closer and be in a relationship. Their relationship as organic as Stockholm syndrome.

I guess we have a slight difference in perspective here. Under other circumstances, if two people spent a lot of time together due to one of their jobs, I'd still consider a relationship that grew from that to be organic if it wasn't part of the job itself.

• MC and Kaija became lovers.
• Kaija starts to love MC. (Yeah, after they became lovers because she said at the beginning nothing was real. Though it's a gradual process, so cannot certainly pinpoint.)

I think there's some ambiguity in the order of these two depending on your path and dialogue interpretation. This is particularly true since the development of feelings is a gradual process and it can be tricky to pinpoint when exactly it becomes "love", as you said.

Otherwise, seems consistent with my understanding.

 

[justin.case]

I think there's some ambiguity in the order of these two depending on your path and dialogue interpretation. Otherwise, seems consistent with my understanding.

There is some ambiguity but not path dependent since other path has no love option. As I understood from both MC's and Kaija explanation that they get in a relationship before Kaija saw MC that way but within time, that idea grow on her. Ambiguity came from 2 different sources as I see it besides they did not say directly. First one, they don't have Day 0 neither of them asked each other and second one, MC has those feelings long before they became a couple, maybe as early as their childhood. So, it is hard to put in a time frame. Why I think it's this way? First of all, when Kaija said at the beginning nothing was real beside the friendship I think this is a serious reference because the beginning part cannot refer the duty because they were friends before she got the orders, so this beginning she is talking about must be their relationship. Thus, I think, she is saying at the beginning of our relationship except our friendship everything was a lie. Therefore, they became a couple then Kaija's love started.

I guess we have a slight difference in perspective here. Under other circumstances, if two people spent a lot of time together due to one of their jobs, I'd still consider a relationship that grew from that to be organic.

As jobs part of their life, that is correct but this is not a job she can quit, she can move away, she can stay away of MC. She has to interact with MC because of her orders, she is stuck with him. So, not organic.

Someone said (long, long, long time ago) that parents are probably also trying to help Kaija live normal life.

Haven't seen that though it is possible. But then a question rises, who is Kaija and what makes her important in MC's parents to choose her their own son? Maybe MC is not their son? Maybe the idiot of grandmaster caused the demise of Kaija's family, so he feels guilty.(Unlikely as he is not capable of guilt as we seen it.) Lots of question rises there. Still, good theory.

 

[TrixRabbit]

For me their intentions matter very little - they sent Kajia to spy on MC, lied to him about who/what he was (I'm guessing that they're still lying about what), still didn't say anything or let Kajia say anything when the relationship developed into romance (organically or not) then MC leaves - starts an organic, and unlikely, relationship with someone else and they kill her. I want to destroy the Templars at this point, and there is no path back for any of them. I'll side with the hellspawn before the Templars.

 

[Wolfram99]

Haven't seen that though it is possible. But then a question rises, who is Kaija and what makes her important in MC's parents to choose her their own son? Maybe MC is not their son? Maybe the idiot of grandmaster caused the demise of Kaija's family, so he feels guilty.(Unlikely as he is not capable of guilt as we seen it.) Lots of question rises there. Still, good theory.

During the full family talk i got the impression that the parents really dislike the situation when templars who died and left their kids as orphans.
So in that way they maybe hoped to give her some kind of familial love and normalcy, at expense of their son.

 

[Rehwyn]

There is some ambiguity but not path dependent since other path has no love option. As I understood from both MC's and Kaija explanation that they get in a relationship before Kaija saw MC that way but within time, that idea grow on her. Ambiguity came from 2 different sources as I see it besides they did not say directly. First one, they don't have Day 0 neither of them asked each other and second one, MC has those feelings long before they became a couple, maybe as early as their childhood. So, it is hard to put in a time frame. Why I think it's this way? First of all, when Kaija said at the beginning nothing was real beside the friendship I think this is a serious reference because the beginning part cannot refer the duty because they were friends before she got the orders, so this beginning she is talking about must be their relationship. Thus, I think, she is saying at the beginning of our relationship except our friendship everything was a lie. Therefore, they became a couple then Kaija's love started.

Here I disagree with your interpretation. I can't check the exact quotes right now, but by "at the beginning" I'd understand that to mean at the beginning of her assignment, not a relationship. Even if they were already friends, she still probably started to spend even more time with MC as a result of this orders, even if just as a friend.

If she started a relationship with only friendship and without attraction or affection, it'd directly contradict other statements she made that she didn't enter into one to make her job easier or under false pretenses.

I'd also wager that 99% of people start relationships with people before it becomes full blown love, so as long as the initial interest was legitimate, I don't know that I'd consider it fake if they started a relationship or became lovers before it had progressed to love. Again, it's a gradual transition from initial attraction to love that often developed alongside the relationship itself.

As jobs part of their life, that is correct but this is not a job she can quit, she can move away, she can stay away of MC. She has to interact with MC because of her orders, she is stuck with him. So, not organic.

Others have left the Templars, so I somewhat disagree that she has no choice. Granted, her other job prospects are likely very limited given her specialized skills etc.

And if she truly has no choice but to spend time with MC, then she lacks agency in that matter and can't be held responsible for doing so. Therefore, from the perspective of just her and MC, I'd still consider it organic, even if in the broader sense it's less so.

 

[Wolfram99]

I'd also wager that 99% of people start relationships with people before it becomes full blown love, so as long as the initial interest was legitimate, I don't know that it'd consider it fake if they started a relationship or became lovers before it had progressed to love.

I am on the side of the argument that when they became BF/GF, she did it so that she had easier time protecting MC, and nothing more. And only later on in the BF/GF relationship did she catch the love bug, ofc only on Love path that is.

 

[Rehwyn]

I am on the side of the argument that when they became BF/GF, she did it so that she had easier time protecting MC, and nothing more. And only later on in the BF/GF relationship did she catch the love bug, ofc only on Love path that is.

It's possible she was lying, but she specifically says that wasn't the case. So I guess on this particular note it may boil down to if you believe that statement to be true.

 

[justin.case]

I'd also wager that 99% of people start relationships with people before it becomes full blown love, so as long as the initial interest was legitimate, I don't know that it'd consider it fake if they started a relationship or became lovers before it had progressed to love.

This much is correct and not gonna argue but there should be certain threshhold which I believe they did not cross at the beginning of their relationship.

If she started a relationship with only friendship and without attraction or affection, it'd directly contradict other statements she made that she didn't enter into one to make her job easier or under false pretenses.

Now, you do misremember this part. She did exactly say it made her job easier.

Here I disagree with your interpretation. I can't check the exact quotes right now, but by "at the beginning" I'd understand that to mean at the beginning of her assignment, not a relationship. Even if they were already friends, she still probably started to spend even more time with MC as a result of this orders, even if just as a friend.

My memory is still fresh because I recently played the game from the beginning. I am not gonna say my interpretation is the absolute truth because it's not confirmed in any way but I think my way is the better fit. First of all, they were talking about the relationship, referring to assignment there would not be correct. Also, whole conversation leads to there. She already said she was friends with MC at the beginning of the assignment on top of that, MC asks how much of this was a show referring to their relationship. As there was no show about the assignment, if she was talking about it that answer would not make any sense. Main point, she says beside friendship everything was a show. At the beginning of the assignment, there was nothing but friendship hence nothing can be a show. So it was clearly indicates she said at the beginning of their relationship, everything except friendship was fake then she fell in love and everything became real for her.

 

[xapican]

During the full family talk i got the impression that the parents really dislike the situation when templars who died and left their kids as orphans.
So in that way they maybe hoped to give her some kind of familial love and normalcy, at expense of their son.

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[Rehwyn]

Now, you do misremember this part. She did exactly say it made her job easier.

To directly quote:

MC: "Did you get into a relationship with me on purpose? Because it made your job easier?"
Kaija: "No! If that had been my intention, I could have saved myself the trouble with the Council. It's literally what they asked me to do."
Kaija: "The situation had developed its own dynamics. Before I really realized it, we both were a thing. It was easy. The best from both worlds."

So yes, after things developed without her realizing, it was easy for a time to enjoy the best of both worlds, but she explicitly says she didn't start a relationship to make her job easier.

 

[justin.case]

I am on the side of the argument that when they became BF/GF, she did it so that she had easier time protecting MC, and nothing more. And only later on in the BF/GF relationship did she catch the love bug, ofc only on Love path that is.

I think that is definitely the case.

It's possible she was lying, but she specifically says that wasn't the case. So I guess on this particular note it may boil down to if you believe that statement to be true.

Dude, you misremember that part. She said it made easier for her. Then added I always liked to spent time with you so it was a win-win for me. Best part of it, she chose this by her own. No order, no nothing.


My theory on that, when you combine it MC's we were drifting apart quote. They were friends, then she noticed MC's feelings and understood if she was not going to be MC's gf, someone else would that means less time for her. She became desperate because her duty was in danger. Think about it, if she stayed only friends with MC, with that much of absence because of her duties, they would fell apart. With MC's regular job, colleagues, friends, gf she would probably can see MC once in a month. So in a desperate attempt to be close to MC, she chose to be a couple, made things easy for her. Then, she fell in love with MC.

 

[Rehwyn]

I think that is definitely the case.


Dude, you misremember that part. She said it made easier for her. Then added I always liked to spent time with you so it was a win-win for me. Best part of it, she chose this by her own. No order, no nothing.


My theory on that, when you combine it MC's we were drifting apart quote. They were friends, then she noticed MC's feelings and understood if she was not going to be MC's gf, someone else would that means less time for her. She became desperate because her duty was in danger. Think about it, if she stayed only friends with MC, with that much of absence because of her duties, they would fell apart. With MC's regular job, colleagues, friends, gf she would probably can see MC once in a month. So in a desperate attempt to be close to MC, she chose to be a couple, made things easy for her. Then, she fell in love with MC.

Your theory directly contradicts Kaija's statement that I quoted right above (here), where she explicitly denies starting a relationship on purpose to make her job easier.

As I said, she could be lying. But then it again boils down to if you believe that statement by her to be true.

 

[nitkonikic]

To directly quote:

So yes, after things developed without her realizing, it was easy for a time to enjoy the best of both worlds, but she explicitly says she didn't start a relationship to make her job easier.

Replay the first conversation at the start of chapter 2.
She says it made her job easier.

So yes, she both says It made the job easier (chapter 2), and no, it wasn't because it made the job easier (chapter 3).







Now, we can go with Kaija lying or adapting her story....
(or the more likely Ceolag just forgot what he wrote in early chapter and it's just a whoops)

Minor edit:
I believe that conversation is identical on both love and non-love path.
But she outright says she entered relationship because it made things easier.

Obviously I'm doing complete guesswork, but Chapter 3 might have been intentionally written to correct that chapter 2 dialogue because this thread, after chapter 2 came out was....not very civil, entirely directed towards Kaija.
Unfortunately, I contributed to that fair bit myself.
Chapter 3 conversation does its best to show Kaija in not-black-black light. Chapter 2 conversation is damning for her character on its own.

 

[Rehwyn]

Replay the first conversation at the start of chapter 2.
She says it made her job easier.

So yes, she both says It made the job easier (chapter 2), and no, it wasn't because it made the job easier (chapter 3).

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Now, we can go with Kaija lying or adapting her story....
(or the more likely Ceolag just forgot what he wrote in early chapter and it's just a whoops)

Minor edit:
I believe that conversation is identical on both love and non-love path.
But she outright says she entered relationship because it made things easier.

Those quotes aren't from her love path. Here's the the two versions of that dialogue:

mc "So you thought it was a good idea to lie to me and pretend you like me?"
kja "What? No."
kja "At that point we had been friends for a few years."
kja "I always enjoyed spending time with you. So I thought it would be easy."
kja "Just spend more time with him. Do friend stuff. No problem."
kja "And they would be happy. Win win situation."

if LPkaija >= 3:

mc "But it didn't work out..."
kja "At first it did."
kja "But the more time we spent together, the more I enjoyed being near you."
kja "First it became a habit. Then more..."
mc "I can't believe this..."
mc "How much of this has been a show?"
kja "In the beginning? Pretty much everything except the original friendship."
kja "At the end? Nothing!"
mc "I'm not sure I believe that."
mom "[mcn], it's not her fault. She pretty much had no choice."

elif True:

mc "So, you used our friendship to achieve your goals. You pleased your supervisors, and you got to enjoy your time while doing so."
mc "Why did you get into a relationship with me? We could've stayed friends, no?"
kja "It made several things easier. Being around you for example."
kja "And the situation somehow developed its own dynamics."
kja "Before I realized what had happened, we were pretty close."
kja "I liked it and, as I said, it made things easier."
mc "How much of this has been a show?"
kja "Pretty much everything except our original friendship."
kja "I do have feelings for you, but not more than just friends."
mc "I'm such an idiot. I should've noticed..."
mom "It's not your fault, [mcn]. They arranged everything and Kaija pretty much had no choice."

So the comment in Chapter 2 about it making things easier only occurs if you have less than 3 Love Points with Kaija.

Obviously I'm doing complete guesswork, but Chapter 3 might have been intentionally written to correct that chapter 2 dialogue because this thread, after chapter 2 came out was....not very civil, entirely directed towards Kaija.
Unfortunately, I contributed to that fair bit myself.

I do agree on this, at least partially. The outright denial in Chapter 3 leaves little ambiguity compared to the comments in Chapter 2 and was probably a very intentional inclusion.

 

[nitkonikic]

Those quotes aren't from her love path. Here's the the two versions of that dialogue:
So the comment about it making things easier only occurs if you have less than 3 Love Points with Kaija.

Fair, so not same on both routes.

But your own comment shows she entered relationship without love initially.



Chapter 3 dialogue is still contradictory to chapter 2 one (0 points run):

 

[Rehwyn]

Your own comment she entered relationship without love initially.

View attachment 4254120

I commented on this earlier:

Here I disagree with your interpretation. I can't check the exact quotes right now, but by "at the beginning" I'd understand that to mean at the beginning of her assignment, not a relationship. Even if they were already friends, she still probably started to spend even more time with MC as a result of this orders, even if just as a friend.

If she started a relationship with only friendship and without attraction or affection, it'd directly contradict other statements she made that she didn't enter into one to make her job easier or under false pretenses.

I'd also wager that 99% of people start relationships with people before it becomes full blown love, so as long as the initial interest was legitimate, I don't know that I'd consider it fake if they started a relationship or became lovers before it had progressed to love. Again, it's a gradual transition from initial attraction to love that often developed alongside the relationship itself.

Edit:

Chapter 3 dialogue is still contradictory to chapter 2 one (0 points run):

View attachment 4254137
View attachment 4254133
View attachment 4254135

I noticed this too. The next few lines are different, but it's honestly a little unusual that these are unchanged.



I guess Ceolag just wanted to really make sure she said she didn't start a relationship on purpose to make things easier.

If I had to guess at the different versions here, on the "no love" path, it might be that she realized things had transitioned into essentially a one-sided relationship and then she was too cowardly to back out. Whereas with at least 5 love points she liked it at least a little, and with at least 8 it had become full blown love.

 

[nitkonikic]

In that case, hope we can agree to disagree

My interpretation is still she entered relationship first, developed feelings later.
As for why, because she's brainwashed by Templars to follow orders.

So despite saying no, and MCs dad saying she doesn't have it, she thought job will be easier, and job is everything.
It is only later, after developing proper feelings, that she started doubting things.

 

[Rehwyn]

In that case, hope we can agree to disagree

My interpretation is still she entered relationship first, developed feelings later.
As for why, because she's brainwashed by Templars to follow orders.

So despite saying no, and MCs dad saying she doesn't have it, she thought job will be easier, and job is everything.
It is only later, after developing proper feelings, that she started doubting things.

To be clear, even I don't think she was in love before starting a relationship. My understanding of the love path is that things progressed without her realizing it to a certain point (maybe they were watching Netflix or something and shared an unexpected kiss), and then she realized there was at least the starting of affection and being a "thing", which she decided to continue until it became full love.

So it sounds like our disagreement is not so much regarding if there was love or not when the relationship started, but whether or not the relationship was started (or continued) for the purpose of making her job easier.

I think we can reasonably disagree here, especially on different paths (and depending on how much you trust her outright denial in Chapter 3).