VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[sorco2003]

The chub girl from the OG ? I believe it is not. But I am unsure if Ocean spoken on the matter

Ocean didn't talk about this particular issue, he just went so far as to say that Emilie (changing e for a is a masterstroke ) was still part of WIAB but her story would change a lot.

 

[sorco2003]

It would be yes however, as both VN's progress, especially this one, they are going to appear eventually anyway aren't they. Why I think (just my own thoughts, nothing more) that releases will be staggered now and as WIAB reveals stuff it may...may coincide with something in the following SG update.

If that doesn't happen, I'd be disappointed and actually think Ocean missed a trick by not doing that.

Doing that implies revealing the endings or at least the canon ending of WIAB, for me it wouldn't be smart to do that. Maybe it's just me, but knowing what's going to happen doesn't attract me to know how it happened (unless your name is Gabriel Garcia Marquez).

 

[BobTheDuck]

Doing that implies revealing the endings or at least the canon ending of WIAB, for me it wouldn't be smart to do that. Maybe it's just me, but knowing what's going to happen doesn't attract me to know how it happened (unless your name is Gabriel Garcia Marquez).

There are still events that can happen in the 20 something years post WiaB's events, and those years have their own canon. If she is a side interest rather than a main LI, I don't feel terrible that Ocean programmes part of her canon, just like Emilio - in SG we see he has tatts - presumably gang tatts, maybe prison time? How he goes from majordomo to intelligence broker, normal pink jacket guy to cliche gay barber is still a massive question mark. Even to some extent, Katie, William and Leia surviving (and presumably Donna and Elena) is also a spoiler.

What happens inbetween is still a surprise with many pretzel twists. And to some extent, it can act as a red hearring. I might think I know a characters canon, but they act completely opposite causing me to scratch my head until the reveal. Ocean loves misdirection.

I do think that Mavi has a point - we are playing the two games in a way that has a priviledged position - we see reveals that won't happen for people who play the games in order at the end. Emilio's reveal in WiaB won't effect people who had seen him as comedic relief in SG for years. Suddenly he's there in WiaB and my mind was blown. Someone playing in order won't care. So already I think Ocean is doing as Mavi states, but not necessarily consciously.

 

[sorco2003]

There are still events that can happen in the 20 something years post WiaB's events, and those years have their own canon. If she is a side interest rather than a main LI, I don't feel terrible that Ocean programmes part of her canon, just like Emilio - in SG we see he has tatts - presumably gang tatts, maybe prison time? How he goes from majordomo to intelligence broker, normal pink jacket guy to cliche gay barber is still a massive question mark. Even to some extent, Katie, William and Leia surviving (and presumably Donna and Elena) is also a spoiler.

What happens inbetween is still a surprise with many pretzel twists. And to some extent, it can act as a red hearring. I might think I know a characters canon, but they act completely opposite causing me to scratch my head until the reveal. Ocean loves misdirection.

I do think that Mavi has a point - we are playing the two games in a way that has a priviledged position - we see reveals that won't happen for people who play the games in order at the end. Emilio's reveal in WiaB won't effect people who had seen him as comedic relief in SG for years. Suddenly he's there in WiaB and my mind was blown. Someone playing in order won't care. So already I think Ocean is doing as Mavi states, but not necessarily consciously.

And again, i dont care about how happened if i know what happened... I know a lot of you love this things but its not my coup of tea.


edit: plus, i dont play both games, i cut SG becuase this reasons. I only care for WIAB.

 

[LHDLLB]

It would be yes however, as both VN's progress, especially this one, they are going to appear eventually anyway aren't they. Why I think (just my own thoughts, nothing more) that releases will be staggered now and as WIAB reveals stuff it may...may coincide with something in the following SG update.

If that doesn't happen, I'd be disappointed and actually think Ocean missed a trick by not doing that.

I like this idea, it keeps interesting for those who plays both games and are engaged in both stories. The problem that I see is releases, I don't think Ocean will want to hold SG until a WiaB update is ready. Right now SG - by Ocean- is already 50% done, we do not have a estimation from WiaB, I can try guess that if SG is 50% WiaB maybe is at 60% ? Maybe lower ? Higher ? I would love if he manages to do that, though.

There are still events that can happen in the 20 something years post WiaB's events, and those years have their own canon. If she is a side interest rather than a main LI, I don't feel terrible that Ocean programmes part of her canon, just like Emilio - in SG we see he has tatts - presumably gang tatts, maybe prison time? How he goes from majordomo to intelligence broker, normal pink jacket guy to cliche gay barber is still a massive question mark. Even to some extent, Katie, William and Leia surviving (and presumably Donna and Elena) is also a spoiler.

What happens inbetween is still a surprise with many pretzel twists. And to some extent, it can act as a red hearring. I might think I know a characters canon, but they act completely opposite causing me to scratch my head until the reveal. Ocean loves misdirection.

I do think that Mavi has a point - we are playing the two games in a way that has a priviledged position - we see reveals that won't happen for people who play the games in order at the end. Emilio's reveal in WiaB won't effect people who had seen him as comedic relief in SG for years. Suddenly he's there in WiaB and my mind was blown. Someone playing in order won't care. So already I think Ocean is doing as Mavi states, but not necessarily consciously.

I think that spoilers from WiaB in SG are inevitable, Ocean may hold as much as he can - and he should- but how much time can William stay in the shadows in SG ? SG story already suffers from a lack definition. Best is let the two stories unfold for its own, with out worry of spoiling the other, after all we now what we are playing. The 20 years gap is a great way to excuse some events but I don't think it is enough to excuse all, not enough time passed.

About Emillie/ Emillia is entirely possible, I remember that in the OG she was horny virgin. She becoming a pornstar suits the themes of the game and Zoey wants to open a pornstudio.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

There are still events that can happen in the 20 something years post WiaB's events, and those years have their own canon. If she is a side interest rather than a main LI, I don't feel terrible that Ocean programmes part of her canon, just like Emilio - in SG we see he has tatts - presumably gang tatts, maybe prison time? How he goes from majordomo to intelligence broker, normal pink jacket guy to cliche gay barber is still a massive question mark. Even to some extent, Katie, William and Leia surviving (and presumably Donna and Elena) is also a spoiler.

More than spoilers, they are limitations for Ocean and WIAB's writing
Now we know for sure that nothing irreversible can happen to Leia, Katie and William.
I think 90% of us take it for granted that Miru and William will stay together no matter how much they hate each other and fuck around.
And the Zanes will overcome the situation and emerge more powerful and richer.

About Emillie/ Emillia is entirely possible, I remember that in the OG she was horny virgin. She becoming a pornstar suits the themes of the game and Zoey wants to open a pornstudio.

But that was for Monica

 

[BobTheDuck]

More than spoilers, they are limitations for Ocean and WIAB's writing
Now we know for sure that nothing irreversible can happen to Leia, Katie and William.
I think 90% of us take it for granted that Miru and William will stay together no matter how much they hate each other and fuck around.
And the Zanes will overcome the situation and emerge more powerful and richer.


But that was for Monica

That nothing irreversable can happen to Katie WIlliam or Leia doesn't mean that Ocean gets bummed out because he actually wanted to kill them off. It's not a limitation, but a condition he's set. It also gives us a sense of relief that he's not going to kill off a fan favourite. But Willi could end up in jail, as could Leia. Nothing in SG as of yet contradicts that possibility. There are still plenty of tense outcomes available. Is William also in a wheelchair? There is still so much scope for surprise right now.

You get to choose if Miru goes into porn, currently Mon will slap William silly if you suggest anything intimate. In the old WiaB's camping trip if you took Katie's drugs, you screwed Emilie and Zoey, and could eat out Katie. If you don't take the drugs you had choices who to spend the night with, and could have sex with Emilie then, take her virginity. She's incredibly shy and unconfident, so a career in porn only makes sense if you corrupt her I guess. She did have massive breasts, so Nika's comments about how large they are check out. Could be the new version, William fully corrupts her, Emilia is her porn name, who knows?

 

[Dr.TSoni]

That nothing irreversable can happen to Katie WIlliam or Leia doesn't mean that Ocean gets bummed out because he actually wanted to kill them off. It's not a limitation, but a condition he's set

You're right, about that point I explained myself poorly. I meant that now Ocean can't even scare us by threatening one of those characters; For example, if Leia or Katie were kidnapped as a player we would know that it can't end in the worst way if we make bad choices. In addition to the fact that Ocean has now precluded himself from writing a Bad Ending if we royally messed up as players.

You get to choose if Miru goes into porn, currently Mon will slap William silly if you suggest anything intimate. In the old WiaB's camping trip if you took Katie's drugs, you screwed Emilie and Zoey, and could eat out Katie. If you don't take the drugs you had choices who to spend the night with, and could have sex with Emilie then, take her virginity. She's incredibly shy and unconfident, so a career in porn only makes sense if you corrupt her I guess. She did have massive breasts, so Nika's comments about how large they are check out. Could be the new version, William fully corrupts her, Emilia is her porn name, who knows?

I don't know how much we can rely on the old version to speculate, I mean quite a few changes have already been made.
From little things like sleeping on William's back it went from being Leia's thing to Miru.
Or how much his relationship with Katie has improved when it was previously non-existent.
And then there's William who used to be a successful writer and is now GigaChad William

Spoiler: I mean

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Honestly, if we were to get to prison again, I can't imagine the new William, slapping gang members into a coma, forced to bargain for his life

 

[Turret]

I want you to know that I tried but I truly cannot make sense of that perspective. I understand it, I get why it make sense to you but it just does not to me.

Genuine question, if you were to play WiAB again from the beginning, replay all content there is so far with this new knowledge, that only William and Leia are related, does it still feel natural to you?

The only way it does for me is if I assume Leia and Willi don't know that they are adopted. And if they don't know, if they were never told, were I in their place, for the rest of my life I would harbor nothing other than hatred and resentment towards them for hiding the truth for so long.

But if they do know, then I'm gonna be honest, nothing about the story so far feels natural or makes sense to me. Given how close Willi and Leia were they would always have this "us against them" mentality. If they had no blood bond to Katie, Dylan or Helen that feeling would naturally be 10x stronger. If they were not related to them I would not feel enough shame to just leave because Leia would always come first. Therefore I can not envision giving in to Katie's blackmail. I can not envision the same fear of disappointing someone I'm not related to no matter how much I love them/am thankful to them. And likewise I can not envision feeling the same guilt, enough to return all those years after. I would return for Leia. I would never consider returning for the rest of the "family".

I'm not saying I'm in the right here. And maybe there is something wrong with me, I'm not ruling that out. But the fact is, no matter how hard I try, I cannot, for a single second, even pretend that blood bond = adoption/guardianship.

I partially disagree on your topic in general, but specifically on WiAB I completely agree. Just look at the relationship between William and Dylan which has that "I think you did a shitty job but you're still my father" feel to it. A feeling that, I fear, would become resentment in an adoption situation.

None of this choice makes any sense at all. I can only pray ocean comes to his senses. View attachment 3860981

While I don't fully agree with all that you have said, I do for the most part. As of right now we are all guessing, but I think that William and Leia always knew they are adopt - if this is the direction Ocean goes - simply because if it was a intent to become a plot point, given how Ocean spoon feed information information in each update, he would not do so in a devlog. The change will be retroactive, maybe add some lines when William and Miru are talking in Chapter 1, I don't know, but to reveal now... it disrupts the flow of the story. William goes back to make amend, but finds out that his parents lied to him all his life, for me changes too much too fast. In short . It does not work.

About William and Leia, I fully agree, some of the relationships dynamics will have to change they can not stay the same. Who I see suffering most of it is Katie, her thing is that she was the third wheel but now her resentment towards the Twins and Helen and Dylan has to be a lot deeper she was the passed over child while being - maybe - the only natural one. That is the type of thing that really fucks up a child head. The thing is that I don't think Ocean will want to go that direction, because I don't think this change is born out of a artistic view but rather of a pratical need, so my fear is that the story becomes much like SG S1, a patched out thing, where you can see where was cut and stitched together. The difference is that SG it affected only one season, WiaB the whole story.

I very much agree with you on this development! It is bleedingly obvious that Ocean is bowing to Patreon here! Not Steam, since for Steam not incest is the problem, but the sexy pics. Due to their laughable age verification, Steam fears that minors could see sex stuff on the game page (which is the reason some nations get blocked unlawfully) like the devil does holy water.
This move by Ocean is clearly Patreon-related and in my honest opinion a storyline mistake of epic proportions! I am a hobbywriter myself and know a bit about worldbuilding. Until now the various relationships were based on the premise that the Zanes were a bloodrelated family.
One major example is the Dylan-Willi relationship which is practically swinging a sign saying "We had our problems, sometimes you did a shitty job, but in the end you are a good and MY father". While there can be deep love in adoption relationships (as can there be horrible bloodrelated parents), in this case it does NOT work due to the events and stuff that happened before.

Going alone by the known "Happenings" the Twins were involved (and we know there were more and hefty ones) and the mega trolling of Kati (now the "only" direct child of the Zanes), for Dylan and Helen to keep the Twins it only makes sense if they are bloodrelated. While Dylan and Helen made mistakes raising the three kids, it is clearly hinted that they were more than ok parents.
Or Willi´s "I troll the hell out of you, but you are still my little Sis" stance on Kati. Willi admitting to Miru that he tihnks daily about the family back in Wollust. Kati´s blackmailing of Willi so severe that he fled alone in a short-circuit reaction. While this can happen with adopted children, it makes more sense with bloodrelated ones.

Hopefully Ocean comes to his senses and sees that once you start to make stitches with things that work, you will keep on making stitches after stitches, because the seams pop up here and there now. Do not try to repair what is working.

At least we can be sure that at least Miru, Willi, Leia and Kati make it into the SG present.

 

[BobTheDuck]

You're right, about that point I explained myself poorly. I meant that now Ocean can't even scare us by threatening one of those characters; For example, if Leia or Katie were kidnapped as a player we would know that it can't end in the worst way if we make bad choices. In addition to the fact that Ocean has now precluded himself from writing a Bad Ending if we royally messed up as players.


I don't know how much we can rely on the old version to speculate, I mean quite a few changes have already been made.
From little things like sleeping on William's back it went from being Leia's thing to Miru.
Or how much his relationship with Katie has improved when it was previously non-existent.
And then there's William who used to be a successful writer and is now GigaChad William

Spoiler: I mean

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Honestly, if we were to get to prison again, I can't imagine the new William, slapping gang members into a coma, forced to bargain for his life

Of course we can't use the old WiaB for more than a basic idea, and know that Ocean has license to change anything, especially about characters which only existed basically as a sex scene - old Emilie was not part of the main plot, just an excuse for lewd moments, while Emilia exists to make Nika aware there are subcurrents moving around Noji. Very different. The old Emilie I've referenced , because the question was if they're the same person - well there's no Emelie in the current WiaB, so by nature I'm making comparisons with the old one. The point was more that Emilia DOES end up in porn before SG starts, so there is a chance that being familiar with Katie at the bookclub, it might be a shy virgin who gets corrupted and becomes part of William's porn business with Zoey and Miru. Or not. BUt it's plausible. Monica on the other hand - although William suggests she can earn better than a cop, that's just him being an ass. He knows she'd rather kill him currently.

I think a lot of devs have understood that bad endings , although artistic really do mess with their fan base. I can't think of a single game where there is outright loss as the canon ending. People play games generally because there's far more loss in their own lives, or negative connotations to escape. SO we inherently hope our MC will be the badass that triumphs over impossible odds ...which happens 99% of the time. At most, a bad ending means you failed objectives, so you reload and find a better path. The backlash for a genuine no way out canon ending is probably more than most devs can manage. The injustice we feel at the end of Empire Strikes Back (I remember seeing it when I was a kid when it was released) was only palatable because we had Luke escape, and we knew they would search, the story wasn't over. SO same for WiaB: even without spoilers in SG we know that it'll have a ray of hope to lead to the next game. And closure is something that precludes a good segue to the next narrative.

 

[Maviarab]

Great discussion guys!

 

[Deleted member 7636288]

Why laugh emoji?

Some things are just funny to people (people believing lies or saying stupid shit etc)


See, someone mentioned it's because they got rid of the facepalm emote but no, that isn't the reason why people are picking it They'd use the "Angry" face emote, if that were the case.

Who is it then if not Ocean.

Seeing as these AVN Devs work together, who knows. One Dev knows another, you'd never know who is really solo and who isn't. They won't be man enough to admit it. They'll keep playing the "solo" card for the clueless.

 

[The Krogan Dude]

See, someone mentioned it's because they got rid of the facepalm emote but no, that isn't the reason why people are picking it They'd use the "Angry" face emote, if that were the case.

Incorrect. The angry face emto sucks. It's not the same thing.

 

[RNasc4444]

That nothing irreversable can happen to Katie WIlliam or Leia doesn't mean that Ocean gets bummed out because he actually wanted to kill them off.

I still think it's incredibly naive of you guys to keep assuming things like William being alive and well by the end of WiAB just because of a couple of lines of text in the book club scene of the other game... It's an Ocean game guys...y'all should know better by now

 

[faramata]

Incorrect. The angry face emto sucks. It's not the same thing.

The admins will ban the laugh emoji next.

 

[yossa999]

I still think it's incredibly naive of you guys to keep assuming things like William being alive and well by the end of WiAB just because of a couple of lines of text in the book club scene of the other game... It's an Ocean game guys...y'all should know better by now

 

[BobTheDuck]

I still think it's incredibly naive of you guys to keep assuming things like William being alive and well by the end of WiAB just because of a couple of lines of text in the book club scene of the other game... It's an Ocean game guys...y'all should know better by now

That's kinda partially my point - if Ocean's written those lines because he wants Willi there, it's because he isn't worried about us knowing, because he doesn't plan on going all AL on us. Or he does want to, and he doesn't mind misdirection so it hits harder. Or he hasn't decided. Obligation free quote or something?

I would not rewrite lines in a released game just to pull those sort of stunts, though whether Ocean will is another matter at this point...

The admins will ban the laugh emoji next.

What an utterly depreseeing thing for them to do, still won't ban me from laughing XD

 

[faramata]

What an utterly depreseeing thing for them to do, still won't ban me from laughing XD

I was only joking...well, half joking, I can certainly see it happening.

 

[sorco2003]

That's kinda partially my point - if Ocean's written those lines because he wants Willi there, it's because he isn't worried about us knowing, because he doesn't plan on going all AL on us. Or he does want to, and he doesn't mind misdirection so it hits harder. Or he hasn't decided. Obligation free quote or something?

I would not rewrite lines in a released game just to pull those sort of stunts, though whether Ocean will is another matter at this point...

Sorry to be pessimistic, but he's done it before and I don't think anything will stop him in the future.

 

[BobTheDuck]

Sorry to be pessimistic, but he's done it before and I don't think anything will stop him in the future.

No need to apologise, hope and pessimism are both parts of the same coin we're playing with here