VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.10.1] [Dr PinkCake]

[Meushi]

But the fact that these choices won't have an impact once people have wiped out one side makes it superfluous and pointless for those players, so something surely needs to be put in place to give them choices that have an actual impact.

Not really, if you're on a full DIK run you keep picking DIK to avoid dropping to middling DIK/Neutral, exactly as were doing up to that point. If you're not on a maxing run then you keep picking mixed choices to keep the MC in the desired affinity zone. It's like exercise, even at peak fitness got to keep doing it to maintain your level. If want those DIK events got to keep making DIK choices and vice versa.

I agree finite increments on the scale could be a problem given the projected length of the game, as that may cause all runs to converge on max CHICK/NEUTRAL/DIK. A possible solution would be to add more increments to the scale in subsequent seasons, which still wouldn't change this game mechanic, just gives the player extra ammo.

IMO significantly overhauling the main game mechanic 1/3 through would be painful, but until we know what DPC has planned it's not worth speculating about much. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[ChipLecsap]

Not really, if you're on a full DIK run you keep picking DIK to avoid dropping to middling DIK/Neutral, exactly as were doing up to that point. If you're not on a maxing run then you keep picking mixed choices to keep the MC in the desired affinity zone. It's like exercise, even at peak fitness got to keep doing it to maintain your level. If want those DIK events got to keep making DIK choices and vice versa.

I agree finite increments on the scale could be a problem given the projected length of the game, as that may cause all runs to converge on max CHICK/NEUTRAL/DIK. A possible solution would be to add more increments to the scale in subsequent seasons, which still wouldn't change this game mechanic, just gives the player extra ammo.

IMO significantly overhauling the main game mechanic 1/3 through would be painful, but until we know what DPC has planned it's not worth speculating about much. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think the system would have been worked better, if instead, Taking away a scale. The game would have ad a point to you decision. Like in the for example , Mass Effect or KoTOR. if you make 1 paragon, or light side decision, you gain a point, and if you make a Renegade decision, you gain a point on that scale too. whichever you have more , determined who you are, and it's still not luck you out, from major choices. Like for example in Mass Effect, you can have more Renegade point, yet you can still choose, whether you save the council or not in the end of the first game.

in Badik, if You have chick affinity, and Melani and Sara, show up in the shower, you automatically locked out form the option, to be confident in front of them.

and Since he has to create content for each path .... The way he decide to approach this, is more like an illusion of control, rather than actual control.

 

[lemonfreak]

Not really, if you're on a full DIK run you keep picking DIK to avoid dropping to middling DIK/Neutral, exactly as were doing up to that point. If you're not on a maxing run then you keep picking mixed choices to keep the MC in the desired affinity zone. It's like exercise, even at peak fitness got to keep doing it to maintain your level. If want those DIK events got to keep making DIK choices and vice versa.

I agree finite increments on the scale could be a problem given the projected length of the game, as that may cause all runs to converge on max CHICK/NEUTRAL/DIK. A possible solution would be to add more increments to the scale in subsequent seasons, which still wouldn't change this game mechanic, just gives the player extra ammo.

IMO significantly overhauling the main game mechanic 1/3 through would be painful, but until we know what DPC has planned it's not worth speculating about much. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ever hear the phrase, you only get once chance to make a first impression?

With 4 of the 5 LIs (Josy being exception because she was acquainted with the MC before the story began) their initial impression of him prove to be wrong but it takes multiple interations to undo that. How long does it take Bella to think MC isn't a bad seed, how long until Jill doesn't see MC as a wounded puppy, how long until Sage sees MC having value beyond what he can do for her, ditto for Maya.

 

[crabsinthekitchen]

I'm not sure i like the sounds of completely locking affinity. There's got to be a continued major choice mechanic if its still going then be used in affecting MC options.

same, there's enough space on that scale for 5-6 more episodes

 

[ename144]

I felt it was a little bit off in a few respects, most notably with Maya during the picnic scene. Here was a girl who 3 nights ago was seemingly ready to put Josy behind her to be with the MC, 2 nights ago was professing about how she should have let down her guard more with him because he was worth doing that for, but now is basically saying, "I'm cool with the potential risk of losing you by giving you a free pass to fuck other girls". It's an odd switch for someone who seemed to be expresing some very deep feelings for him and wanting to be with him to suddenly being OK with him not being with her. It almost feels like DPC was trying to pump the brakes on the seriousness of this relationship since there are still so many episodes left to go, but it was done in a way that seemed quite out of character for Maya.

Then Josy had that moment in the Prep mansion where she immediately went to the MC to ask for moral support for when her Dad arrives but not Maya, her girlfriend. That moment is especially jarring if you're not on the M&J path given the events of the previous night, and I suppose it could be looked at as though Josy just naturally expects Maya to be there for her which is why she didn't ask her, but after the feelings expressed by those 2 in ep 4, it still feels a bit odd that she didn't seem to have much consideration for Maya in that moment.

I've complained about Maya's "No string's attached" often enough I didn't think I needed to go into it again, but yes, I agree that was out of character. It's just that I see it as more of an external issue: DPC needed to advance the relationship, but he wasn't ready to take it to the next logical step. So he just made the MC insistent on playing the field (even if he hadn't been) so Maya could declare that they aren't ready to try for something more yet (even though that's exactly what they decided to do).

The argument Maya made, IMHO, is in character for her under certain very specific circumstances (though there are some unpleasant implications). It's just that she uses that argument regardless of what the actual circumstances are.

As for Josy, I see that as another victim of the rushed time frame: Maya is her girlfriend, but the relationship is secret. So getting public support from her is a potentially tricky thing and it makes sense Josy might be hesitant to ask that of her. This should have led to a discussion about just how the three-way relationship was going to work, but that had to be stalled so that the story could get back to its wall-to-wall sex scenes.

Mind you, it's still weird that when Maya asked to come along, Josy included her almost dismissively. But I attribute that to DPC overcorrecting for that damn kiss if the MC stays friends in Episode 4.

 

[moskyx]

I think the system would have been worked better, if instead, Taking away a scale. The game would have ad a point to you decision. Like in the for example , Mass Effect or KoTOR. if you make 1 paragon, or light side decision, you gain a point, and if you make a Renegade decision, you gain a point on that scale too. whichever you have more , determined who you are, and it's still not luck you out, from major choices. Like for example in Mass Effect, you can have more Renegade point, yet you can still choose, whether you save the council or not in the end of the first game.

in Badik, if You have chick affinity, and Melani and Sara, show up in the shower, you automatically locked out form the option, to be confident in front of them.

and Since he has to create content for each path .... The way he decide to approach this, is more like an illusion of control, rather than actual control.

Our major choices are building a character, so if we choose to be a nice, respectful guy that guy would feel awkward in front of Melanie and Sarah (or they wouldn't feel so attracted to him), so it's kind of logical that we couldn't do something more. There's control, but that control doesn't mean you can do whatever you want in any moment, because your actions shapes your MC in a certain way.

That's why I think we're heading to a crucial point where we might not be able to choose our reaction if we've already choose our main DIK/CHICK path. And the best way to "avoid" strong reactions from players is locking out some prior events based on that same scale, so if this new event contains something unavoidable due to our prior behaviour it could feel more "natural", as this wouldn't be the first scene in which that happens.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

same, there's enough space on that scale for 5-6 more episodes

There isn't if you go full DIK or CHICK because in that case there's only 2 Major Choices left before the other side of the scale is completely wiped out.

Mind you, it's still weird that when Maya asked to come along, Josy included her almost dismissively. But I attribute that to DPC overcorrecting for that damn kiss if the MC stays friends in Episode 4.

He didn't just overcorrect, he flat-out retconned it.



Makes me wonder if we'll ever see this change implemented in ep 4.

 

[ChipLecsap]

Ever hear the phrase, you only get once chance to make a first impression?

With 4 of the 5 LIs (Josy being exception because she was acquainted with the MC before the story began) their initial impression of him prove to be wrong but it takes multiple interations to undo that. How long does it take Bella to think MC isn't a bad seed, how long until Jill doesn't see MC as a wounded puppy, how long until Sage sees MC having value beyond what he can do for her, ditto for Maya.

Yes, BUT. and as much I don't like to admit when I'm wrong. This lead back to us to the controversial Maya and Josy situation.

You can be as nice with them as you can, you may genuinely like them. and Yet, the decision is not based on your interact with them, It based on event which they cannot have knowledge about. , these major choices are not related to the main girls. They can't know if , whether you comforted Steve or not. or may be the standing up for yourself in the hallway against the Jock, which is according the game is a Dik move. is the one decision that put you out of the balanced scale.

There is only two event that these are actually affected. beating Troy, Bella will know about it, and you get, a minus point with her, and punching Tybalt, which Jill will find out. and We dont know if this will have an effect or not.

 

[ChipLecsap]

View attachment 802762 View attachment 802763 View attachment 802764

God they are beautiful

 

[Hugh G. Rection]

Unless you want a polyamorous relationship with 2 slamming hotties

Hear hear! This guy gets it, follow his teachings and avoid needless trouble

You go your way, I'll go mine A pair of HOTs grown and flowered await

 

[lemonfreak]

There isn't if you go full DIK or CHICK because in that case there's only 2 Major Choices left before the other side of the scale is completely wiped out.

Please don't take this as a personal attack but this comment seems to sum up almost* every issue I have with people in this thread.

I want my choices to matter, I want to know that, by choosing to behave in a manner that makes Sage like me I will lose the ability to make make Josy like me (or vice versa). If I don't have that then I'm playing Skyrim which, despite putting more than 400 hours into across different platforms, I always had a problem with precisely because none of the MC's major decisions carried any weight.

Skyrim at least has the excuse that, as a sandbox, it can make the story a small part of the overall game (I'd be shocked if the story represented 5% of the game); since BaD is a visual novel the story has to be king

*Almost because the 'Update Whens' are a whole different matter

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Unless you want a polyamorous relationship with 2 slamming hotties

​

 

[lemonfreak]

Yes, BUT. and as much I don't like to admit when I'm wrong. This lead back to us to the controversial Maya and Josy situation.

You can be as nice with them as you can, you may genuinely like them. and Yet, the decision is not based on your interact with them, It based on event which they cannot have knowledge about. , these major choices are not related to the main girls. They can't know if , whether you comforted Steve or not. or may be the standing up for yourself in the hallway against the Jock, which is according the game is a Dik move. is the one decision that put you out of the balanced scale.

There is only two event that these are actually affected. beating Troy, Bella will know about it, and you get, a minus point with her, and punching Tybalt, which Jill will find out. and We dont know if this will have an effect or not.

Devil's advocate, we don't know that Josy didn't pop into the store to pick up her final pay cheque and talk to Steve

But in all seriousness, it does seem too many people confuse janky programming choices with machiavellian decisions by DPC.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

Please don't take this as a personal attack but this comment seems to sum up almost* every issue I have with people in this thread.

I want my choices to matter, I want to know that, by choosing to behave in a manner that makes Sage like me I will lose the ability to make make Josy like me (or vice versa). If I don't have that then I'm playing Skyrim which, despite putting more than 400 hours into across different platforms, I always had a problem with precisely because none of the MC's major decisions carried any weight.

Skyrim at least has the excuse that, as a sandbox, it can make the story a small part of the overall game (I'd be shocked if the story represented 5% of the game); since BaD is a visual novel the story has to be king

*Almost because the 'Update Whens' are a whole different matter

And the choices have mattered, because you're either DIK, CHICK, or Neutral, and even though not everyone has gone all the way to one side of the scale, it's still possible to do that and by the end of ep 6 it may be the case that all nodes on one side are completely gone. This upcoming week also feels like it will settle the MC into his college life after the first couple of tumultuous weeks, so perhaps this is the right time that their Affinity settles too, and if people want to be a different Affinity then they can make separate saves on that path.

The choice system that affects Affinity can't really carry on for the entirety of the game, so either a new set of choices affecting something else is added or the Affinity choice system changes slightly after ep 6.

 

[lemonfreak]

Exactly. Illusion of choice my friend...illusion. Sure there may be some slight differences but we will all end up the same place. it might be with a different LI...but we will still be there all the same. It's a set story being told...with a definitive start, middle and end. Would more choice be cool, sure, but it is already there somewhat. Be a dik to get more RP with Sage, then Maya & Josy are not interested in you (which is where it leads us to another issue..the affinity/status mechanic do not work together).

Thanks although I would suggest that, as the MC, you do have choices but that the weight of those choices diminishes over time.

I'm calling it the flowers/cunt principle. You give your wife a bunch of supermarket flowers for no other reason than that you love her and earn +1 (a bespoke bouquet from a florist is worth +3). You call her a cunt and that's -5.

Following a cunt, each bunch of supermarket flowers is now worth +0.5 rather than +1 (the afforementioned bespoke bouquest is actually worth -2 when she's mad at you); you have to do a lot of work to pull yourself out of the cunt hole

Long story short, choices have diminishing returns.

But hey I'm with you...he's hailed as this great mesiah who can do no wrong when the reality is far from that and as much as I like Badik..it is littered with issues, bad writing, plot holes and mechanics that quite frankly don't play well with each other (and also don;t think his pevious game was all that great either). But you daren't criticize at times around here, rabid fanboys (on any game thread) will rip you apart.

Critisise all you want, just have the common decency to remember that DPC is a solo dev who is doing his best and doing so while attempting to create an Affinity system that is hidden from players in order to give them a more immersive experience.

 

[ChipLecsap]

Exactly. Illusion of choice my friend...illusion. Sure there may be some slight differences but we will all end up the same place. it might be with a different LI...but we will still be there all the same. It's a set story being told...with a definitive start, middle and end. Would more choice be cool, sure, but it is already there somewhat. Be a dik to get more RP with Sage, then Maya & Josy are not interested in you (which is where it leads us to another issue..the affinity/status mechanic do not work together).

But hey I'm with you...he's hailed as this great mesiah who can do no wrong when the reality is far from that and as much as I like Badik..it is littered with issues, bad writing, plot holes and mechanics that quite frankly don't play well with each other (and also don;t think his pevious game was all that great either). But you daren't criticize at times around here, rabid fanboys (on any game thread) will rip you apart.

Well, this come out of a little bit of to Bitter, my friend. but okay.
we putting our expectation higher and higher, and that is natural, not just toward him but toward anyone , I have high expectation about Cyberpunk, and I'm sure lots of people demand none less than an another Witcher 3. and naturally it is unavoidable that some will feel disappointment, and they will give voice of that. We are humans after all, nothing is ever good for us.

 

[lemonfreak]

And the choices have mattered, because you're either DIK, CHICK, or Neutral, and even though not everyone has gone all the way to one side of the scale, it's still possible to do that and by the end of ep 6 it may be the case that all nodes on one side are completely gone. This upcoming week also feels like it will settle the MC into his college life after the first couple of tumultuous weeks, so perhaps this is the right time that their Affinity settles too, and if people want to be a different Affinity then they can make separate saves on that path.

The choice system that affects Affinity can't really carry on for the entirety of the game, so either a new set of choices affecting something else is added or the Affinity choice system changes slightly after ep 6.

And this reply shows that you didn't take what I said personally

I do, however, disagree with your assertion that the Affinity system can't carry on, it's just that, per my flowers/cunt analogy in an earlier post, the opportunities for the MC to make major choices that affect his standing in the wider community will become more limited, ie, the MC that fought the Jocks can't become the MC that didn't fight the Jocks, that choice was made and the player has to live with the consequences (or make a new save). We should expect the Major Choices to be more spread out going forward.

 

[ename144]

Yes, BUT. and as much I don't like to admit when I'm wrong. This lead back to us to the controversial Maya and Josy situation.

You can be as nice with them as you can, you may genuinely like them. and Yet, the decision is not based on your interact with them, It based on event which they cannot have knowledge about. , these major choices are not related to the main girls. They can't know if , whether you comforted Steve or not. or may be the standing up for yourself in the hallway against the Jock, which is according the game is a Dik move. is the one decision that put you out of the balanced scale.

There is only two event that these are actually affected. beating Troy, Bella will know about it, and you get, a minus point with her, and punching Tybalt, which Jill will find out. and We dont know if this will have an effect or not.

To be fair, for Maya & Josy it's both. They are somehow able to magically determine the MCs affinity, but they also base their decision on how you treat them (you need to sleep with at least one of them). If the affinity system was consistently implemented I think this would be a good way to handle it. But the affinity system is all over the map, so it feels like we're forced to jump through seemingly arbitrary hoops. Speaking of which...

Not sure if anyone posted these comments View attachment 802604

Sound like the DiK scale will be going away. Or at least frozen so MC will be fixed on a Whatever you are after the final choice. Kind of makes sense for a ‘first impressions’ system

Very interesting. I may be reading too much into the way he phrases it, but it sounds like something will change once one side of the meter is exhausted.

Dammit. I find myself very curious now. But even if we get two choices in Episode 6, it would take one more to see what happens after the side is exhausted. So frustrating!

(Though DPC has been saying how big this episode is. Do you think he might put three choices in it? Or is the waiting finally driving me insane?)

 

[ChipLecsap]

Wasn't knocking him per se...I know he does it all alone, as do many many other devs just as if not more talented around here.



Very true indeed. But there was no bitterness (except maybe to those rabid blinkered fanboys which every thread has heh)...we do only have the illusion of choice (any branching path game does)....and this game does have numerous issues....despite how fun and good it is. Please don't misunderstand my intentions with the previous post. It is one of the better games around yes, but compared to many of those other better games, it's far from the holy grail some seem to think it/he is. The question I guess is that a reflection of this game, or the multitude of distinctly averge trash that is around?

I yet have to see a game that I can considering better than this, for my taste at least. The overall package of the BAdik is superior to anything that I've have seen or played so far. i'm not talking about one aspect of the game. whether it is animation, render, or story. I see the whole package.

 

[Holy Bacchus]

And this reply shows that you didn't take what I said personally

I do, however, disagree with your assertion that the Affinity system can't carry on, it's just that, per my flowers/cunt analogy in an earlier post, the opportunities for the MC to make major choices that affect his standing in the wider community will become more limited, ie, the MC that fought the Jocks can't become the MC that didn't fight the Jocks, that choice was made and the player has to live with the consequences (or make a new save). We should expect the Major Choices to be more spread out going forward.

Why should we expect the Major Choices to be more spread out? With the exception of ep 4, every episode has had 2 Major Choices each. It's become a staple of this game to have Major Choices in each episode, so even if ep 6 has just 1 and ep 7 also has just 1, it still leaves some players in the position that any future choices won't matter because they've eliminated one side of the scale. Therefore, someone who's doing a full DIK route has no more impactful Major Choices left to make because they can't take away any more CHICK nodes.

DPC has to account for players doing full routes on each side of the scale and continuing to have Major Choices that affect Affinity after the point where those choices can remove all nodes makes the future choices useless. Therefore something has to change with these Major Choices to make them continue to have an impact past this point.

Very interesting. I may be reading too much into the way he phrases it, but it sounds like something will change once one side of the meter is exhausted.

Dammit. I find myself very curious now. But even if we get two choices in Episode 6, it would take one more to see what happens after the side is exhausted. So frustrating!

(Though DPC has been saying how big this episode is. Do you think he might put three choices in it? Or is the waiting finally driving me insane?)

We've already had 9 Major Choices and there are 11 nodes on either side, so it will only take 2 choices to eliminate 1 side, not 3.