abletothink

New Member
Aug 1, 2017
10
6
Just for context, the one-level demo took a little over a week to review; NextFest is running now, and the game is 7x the amount of content the demo was.
You seem to be pessimistic about the review process. Do you think you'll be rejected and if so why? To me your game looks competently made and polished compared to a lot of the broken trash that gets put on there. Also how is the fulfillment for the Patreon backers going to work? Will we be able to get the game day one?
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
You seem to be pessimistic about the review process. Do you think you'll be rejected and if so why? To me your game looks competently made and polished compared to a lot of the broken trash that gets put on there. Also how is the fulfillment for the Patreon backers going to work? Will we be able to get the game day one?
99% likely we'll be rejected, because the build we submitted has no endings in-game yet (they're recorded, written, with music and CGs, just not in game yet since the way we get endings in is different than cutscenes currently, so they have to be hard-coded which eats up time for the programmer unlike most of the cutscenes which I normally handle myself).

Per Steam policies, the game needs to be "playable from beginning to end", so if there's no endings...

As far as the fulfillment for Patreon backers works, it's possible you'd be able to get the build day one; it depends on two factors.

A) If you want the game on Steam
B) If Steam is willing to give out keys en masse the day of launch

Steam has to manually review key distribution stuff when you ask for a large amount, whereas other platforms don't, so if they let me get a bunch of keys, then great, if not, then...

That said, the game is likely to have a few issues day-one, so you're probably not missing out if you don't get a key the immediate day of, to be fair.

Once it launches, we're estimating about a month more of development time to finish off anything else that we'd need to get done for the core game, so the launch will be effectively a "soft launch" so to speak.
 
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dragonsix6969

Active Member
Apr 26, 2019
753
497
99% likely we'll be rejected, because the build we submitted has no endings in-game yet (they're recorded, written, with music and CGs, just not in game yet since the way we get endings in is different than cutscenes currently, so they have to be hard-coded which eats up time for the programmer unlike most of the cutscenes which I normally handle myself).
but deus ex this did not stop from being released, he-he. :sneaky:
 
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abletothink

New Member
Aug 1, 2017
10
6
99% likely we'll be rejected, because the build we submitted has no endings in-game yet (they're recorded, written, with music and CGs, just not in game yet since the way we get endings in is different than cutscenes currently, so they have to be hard-coded which eats up time for the programmer unlike most of the cutscenes which I normally handle myself).

Per Steam policies, the game needs to be "playable from beginning to end", so if there's no endings...

As far as the fulfillment for Patreon backers works, it's possible you'd be able to get the build day one; it depends on two factors.

A) If you want the game on Steam
B) If Steam is willing to give out keys en masse the day of launch

Steam has to manually review key distribution stuff when you ask for a large amount, whereas other platforms don't, so if they let me get a bunch of keys, then great, if not, then...

That said, the game is likely to have a few issues day-one, so you're probably not missing out if you don't get a key the immediate day of, to be fair.

Once it launches, we're estimating about a month more of development time to finish off anything else that we'd need to get done for the core game, so the launch will be effectively a "soft launch" so to speak.
Why did you even submit it if it's not finished and you know it won't pass? I really hope there wasn't a fee for doing so. Not wanting to come off as overly critical but I seem to remember you saying you needed it out by this date for financial reasons. If you need the game to make it's money back then releasing an unfinished product is the absolute last thing you should do. The early reviews (from both Steam and websites) will be negative and it will turn people off of buying the game. Even if you fix it later it'll still have that stigma from launch. Best example is Assassin's Creed Unity which still has the reputation for being a disaster from launch even though they fixed it and now it's one of the best city based AC games.

I've been following this project for years and really want to see it succeed. You clearly put a ton of work into it, it plays fantastic based on the demos, and you've been a class act with your community interaction. Please don't self sabotage at the finish line.
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
Why did you even submit it if it's not finished and you know it won't pass?
I could have sworn I covered this in the topic, but looking back, apparently I didn't.

The reason why is because when you submit a game to Steam, there's a lot of little checks they do to make sure the submission is, well, submitted right; things like files being in the right place per their system, the right "filters" or "tags" on things, lots of other stuff needs to be done correctly.

When we submitted the NextFest demo earlier this year, we submitted it, only to wait around a week and be told "yeah, uh, you didn't even put your build in the right place", as there was a specific location we needed to submit it to, for that specific type of demo build, etc.

So by submitting it this way, we did so as sort of a "check" to make sure we were submitting the final build right; if we get it back and it says "yeah you need to fix this and this with your submission", then we'll know that going forward for when we submit again, reducing the potential that we get it all ready, send it off, and... we get rejected because of some small mistake on our end.

I really hope there wasn't a fee for doing so. Not wanting to come off as overly critical but I seem to remember you saying you needed it out by this date for financial reasons.
Oh no, there's no fee for submitting a build, there's only fees for when you initially get your game up on the Steam Store (like, the store page everyone can see right now).

If you need the game to make it's money back then releasing an unfinished product is the absolute last thing you should do. The early reviews (from both Steam and websites) will be negative and it will turn people off of buying the game. Even if you fix it later it'll still have that stigma from launch. Best example is Assassin's Creed Unity which still has the reputation for being a disaster from launch even though they fixed it and now it's one of the best city based AC games.
While I do agree with this, the game is going to be mostly complete by launch (like 95%); that said, we can't really push it too much farther because I've literally maxed out my credit cards, so unless someone just suddenly drops $4k on us or something (and I don't want anyone to do this, to be clear), we've got to release it at the start of November at the latest.

I've been following this project for years and really want to see it succeed. You clearly put a ton of work into it, it plays fantastic based on the demos, and you've been a class act with your community interaction. Please don't self sabotage at the finish line.
Same here, but I don't think it's as in dire straits as you might think; when we launch, we should have all cutscenes in-game, it's just that some of them may not be voiced, and there may be a few things to polish through the first month of launch.
 

anonymousbruh

Newbie
Aug 14, 2017
40
33
do you think you'll release the submitted version on itch.io early since it's ready to go and steam is taking awhile?
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
do you think you'll release the submitted version on itch.io early since it's ready to go and steam is taking awhile?
We can't, actually, per Steam policies. The game has to be released on Steam first.

(That, and it's definitely not ready to go; we still have more core storyline/gameplay content we want to get in there, but as noted above, we can't go past November cause I'm maxed out in terms of finances.)
 

Iexist

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
1,578
2,316
Unless the game can be finished from top to bottom ~5 hours with an average to low skill level, there's a decent chance that the Steam review team will not play it to the end. From some rumors I heard, most platforms generally don't have the manpower or time to play every game that comes their way from start to end. How much luck you're going to have depends on a lot of factors though, including how many other submissions are happening at the same time.
 
May 25, 2017
820
1,532
99% likely we'll be rejected, because the build we submitted has no endings in-game yet (they're recorded, written, with music and CGs, just not in game yet since the way we get endings in is different than cutscenes currently, so they have to be hard-coded which eats up time for the programmer unlike most of the cutscenes which I normally handle myself).

Per Steam policies, the game needs to be "playable from beginning to end", so if there's no endings...

As far as the fulfillment for Patreon backers works, it's possible you'd be able to get the build day one; it depends on two factors.

A) If you want the game on Steam
B) If Steam is willing to give out keys en masse the day of launch

Steam has to manually review key distribution stuff when you ask for a large amount, whereas other platforms don't, so if they let me get a bunch of keys, then great, if not, then...

That said, the game is likely to have a few issues day-one, so you're probably not missing out if you don't get a key the immediate day of, to be fair.

Once it launches, we're estimating about a month more of development time to finish off anything else that we'd need to get done for the core game, so the launch will be effectively a "soft launch" so to speak.
If you're somehow STILL not done with the game yet submitted it anyway, why didn't you submit it as an to give you time to complete it while giving your player-base something to actually play?
 
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HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
If you're somehow STILL not done with the game yet submitted it anyway, why didn't you submit it as an to give you time to complete it while giving your player-base something to actually play?
Multiple reasons why we couldn't (or wouldn't want to) do this;

- As the game has been separated by levels all the way up until about early this year, there would have been no way to have "five playable demos" in Early Access, so the game would have come off as being much more incomplete than it actually was (if Steam even allowed us to put it up there in split levels as-is).

- Early Access is something you generally need to do very early on; the way Steam handles visibility periods, wishlists, and so forth for Early Access is very different than it is for normal releases. TL;DR if we switched to Early Release right now, we'd probably cut our profits in half, at the very least, because Early Access depends on people purchasing the game in exchange for far less visbility from Steam/visibility periods (algorithmically).

- Early Access is also something that would draw us right back into the trap that we had set for ourselves unintentionally with Patreon, which is that we'd need to provide frequent playable builds, which eats up development time massively. When you do a playable build, you need to "close the game up" so to speak; everything needs to work for the most part, existing programming needs to get "snipped" so it performs cleanly, writing needs to be checked, etc. to have a presentable thing that isn't just a mess of "in-progress" parts, especially for something that's going to likely get spread around the internet. We wanted to charge forward with development as fast as possible, which is why we also stopped the monthly demos on Patreon.

- Given the way we've setup stuff, it would likely lead to a lot of complaints from people playing early access, as perception of what was complete/what was missing would likely be very deceptive without the context of how our development process is setup.

For clarification on that last note, I've got something like 100 cutscenes left to plug into the game. Now, if you played the game at this point, you'd be missing all these cutscenes and such, and think that we're months or even years behind.

However, just yesterday, while writing more cutscenes/ripping audio, I also managed to get 10 cutscenes plugged into the game.

This is because not only is the writing/audio/art done for these scenes, but the way I've been writing them is a "manual-parsing" system (where I copy-paste this info for the most part, box by box, into the game). It requires a lot of initial setup as I'm writing the scenes, but when it comes time to plug them into the game, it makes it ridiculously fast to do so.

Here's a screenshot of one scene as an example;

cutscene stuff.png

With this, I've got;
  • Talia's emotions listed (for the emotion selector in-game)
  • The NPC's general mood down (for whatever visual emotions I want to give them in-game)
  • Flags set and checked
  • Ideal values added and subtracted
  • Choices in the cutscene
  • Entity actions (movement, directional changes, damage taken/given, and a lot of other things)
  • Voice filenames so I can just quickly eye what voicelines are attached to what script lines
  • "Blue lines" so I know what lines are repeated between cutscene tabs, so I can quickly clone them between tabs
So hopefully all of that clarifies some stuff.

A lot of titles released exclusively to Epic first and then a few months later on steam?
If they did this, then they didn't have a store page up on Steam at the time they released to Epic.
That, or they were a huge AAA publisher/developer and had the weight to swing around to ignore policy.
 
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Mhiggey

Member
Jun 5, 2018
150
490
We can't, actually, per Steam policies. The game has to be released on Steam first.
So how accurate is the November release date on DLsite then? Since this foreseen rejection will apparently push it back to November. Not the end of October though, apparently. Hopefully the extra month of Patreon funding will help.

we can't go past November cause I'm maxed out in terms of finances
At least the voice-acted databanks will be worth it though. Imagine, for example, if Skyrim had people reading out all of the books you found!
 

Severthe

Newbie
Aug 17, 2019
19
73
Long-time lurker on this forum, but just wanted to wish you and the team good luck with the launch, HentaiWriter. I first played the electric level demo for this game years ago now, and was super impressed by the quality. Since then I've followed development off and on, and I've got to say I'm possibly even more impressed with the quality and quantity of your communication with the community than I am by the game demos themselves haha

Looking forward to playing it when it's out!
 

punhetas

Active Member
Nov 2, 2016
569
1,205
Multiple reasons why we couldn't (or wouldn't want to) do this;

- As the game has been separated by levels all the way up until about early this year, there would have been no way to have "five playable demos" in Early Access, so the game would have come off as being much more incomplete than it actually was (if Steam even allowed us to put it up there in split levels as-is).

- Early Access is something you generally need to do very early on; the way Steam handles visibility periods, wishlists, and so forth for Early Access is very different than it is for normal releases. TL;DR if we switched to Early Release right now, we'd probably cut our profits in half, at the very least, because Early Access depends on people purchasing the game in exchange for far less visbility from Steam/visibility periods (algorithmically).

- Early Access is also something that would draw us right back into the trap that we had set for ourselves unintentionally with Patreon, which is that we'd need to provide frequent playable builds, which eats up development time massively. When you do a playable build, you need to "close the game up" so to speak; everything needs to work for the most part, existing programming needs to get "snipped" so it performs cleanly, writing needs to be checked, etc. to have a presentable thing that isn't just a mess of "in-progress" parts, especially for something that's going to likely get spread around the internet. We wanted to charge forward with development as fast as possible, which is why we also stopped the monthly demos on Patreon.

- Given the way we've setup stuff, it would likely lead to a lot of complaints from people playing early access, as perception of what was complete/what was missing would likely be very deceptive without the context of how our development process is setup.

For clarification on that last note, I've got something like 100 cutscenes left to plug into the game. Now, if you played the game at this point, you'd be missing all these cutscenes and such, and think that we're months or even years behind.

However, just yesterday, while writing more cutscenes/ripping audio, I also managed to get 10 cutscenes plugged into the game.

This is because not only is the writing/audio/art done for these scenes, but the way I've been writing them is a "manual-parsing" system (where I copy-paste this info for the most part, box by box, into the game). It requires a lot of initial setup as I'm writing the scenes, but when it comes time to plug them into the game, it makes it ridiculously fast to do so.

Here's a screenshot of one scene as an example;

View attachment 2080433

With this, I've got;
  • Talia's emotions listed (for the emotion selector in-game)
  • The NPC's general mood down (for whatever visual emotions I want to give them in-game)
  • Flags set and checked
  • Ideal values added and subtracted
  • Choices in the cutscene
  • Entity actions (movement, directional changes, damage taken/given, and a lot of other things)
  • Voice filenames so I can just quickly eye what voicelines are attached to what script lines
  • "Blue lines" so I know what lines are repeated between cutscene tabs, so I can quickly clone them between tabs
So hopefully all of that clarifies some stuff.



If they did this, then they didn't have a store page up on Steam at the time they released to Epic.
That, or they were a huge AAA publisher/developer and had the weight to swing around to ignore policy.
You lost me at the "the game won't probably be approved because it has no ending in the submitted build".

It was submitted to steam so you didn't have to justify the "nth" delay, but ended submitting a guaranteed fail on purpose just to claim to have submitted it in the deadline.
You get an A in communication but you need to learn better management skills for your next project.

That said, good luck with the launch , sincerely.

No need replying, use that time to finish the game instead.
 

HentaiWriter

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Jan 30, 2017
1,229
2,142
Mhiggey said:
So how accurate is the November release date on DLsite then? Since this foreseen rejection will apparently push it back to November. Not the end of October though, apparently. Hopefully the extra month of Patreon funding will help.
The DLSite date was set to November because the game won't come out anywhere but Steam and Itch for the first month or so, as the first month is a soft launch while we finish a few more things, and we can update on Itch and Steam ourselves, while other sites need approval from the site owners to get new updates up.

So we set the DLSite release date to a month after our projected release date on Steam.

And no, unfortunately, the extra month of Patreon funding will not keep us going another month. My cut from it pays for my rent and electricity basically. Still getting hit on car payments, phone bill, food, internet, credit card payments, etc.

Mhiggey said:
At least the voice-acted databanks will be worth it though. Imagine, for example, if Skyrim had people reading out all of the books you found!
The Databanks have already all been voiced since nearly the beginning of the year.

The stuff we're getting done now is the cutscenes (and writing, and programming, and bugtesting, all irrelevant of voicework), which, according to F95 reviews, polls on twitter/patreon, and Discord, is one of the main selling points of the game, so yes, it is absolutely worth it to have everything voiced.

(Plus, even if it wasn't a selling point, we'd still do it anyways, because as noted before, this is the game we want to make, and that's all that really matters.)

widow0011 said:
Long-time lurker on this forum, but just wanted to wish you and the team good luck with the launch, HentaiWriter. I first played the electric level demo for this game years ago now, and was super impressed by the quality. Since then I've followed development off and on, and I've got to say I'm possibly even more impressed with the quality and quantity of your communication with the community than I am by the game demos themselves haha

Looking forward to playing it when it's out!
Glad to hear it :D thanks a lot, I do think the final game will be way better than the Electric Demo for sure.
 
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