Ren'Py Abandoned Heavy Five [Ch.2RS] [Nottravis]

[reiterhaniwa]

Also, And no matter whether you have given money or not, criticism in itself is not bound to being a customer. It doesn't matter on which level, whether it's AAA criticized by a game magazine that often gets the game copy for free but still has to write something honest

by a game magazine that [.....] still has to write something honest

What's it like having woken up after having been cryogenically frozen since 1994? Genuine question.

 

[a1fox3]

Stuff has been released for Patrons; it just hasn't found its way here.
No payments taken in 10 months (technically 11 as March has been paused too!)
The aboned tag doesn't matter, it'll be removed just as quickly when the update is released.

The last "GAME" update is on here and is over 17 months ago, wallpaper and posting does not count for "GAME" update.

Rules for abandon tag are:

1. No contact from dev in 90 days on here or the dev's main site = abandoned tag.
(Main site is normally patreon.)

Or.

2. No "GAME" update in 18 months = abandoned tag until or if a new game update comes out.

 

[moskyx]

The last "GAME" update is on here and is over 17 months ago, wallpaper and posting does not count for "GAME" update.

Rules for abandon tag are:

1. No contact from dev in 90 days on here or the dev's main site = abandoned tag.
(Main site is normally patreon.)

Or.

2. No "GAME" update in 18 months = abandoned tag until or if a new game update comes out.

Don't you realize that he just answered all of your 3 claims, the abandoned tag being the less important of them?

You said:

17 months since last update, looks abandoned

To which he replied:

Stuff has been released for Patrons; it just hasn't found its way here.

Which means that the game is not abandoned, as Patrons know, no matter whether or not it gets the tag on this site. The game is being worked on, and we got some minigames in this period on top of the development news and test builds.

You said:

dev is just stringing along patreons for money.

To which he replied:

No payments taken in 10 months (technically 11 as March has been paused too!)

Which means that dev is not stringing anyone for money, since she's not taking any money.

And you said:

Dev has 16 days to update the game or the abandoned tag goes up.

To which he replied:

The abandoned tag doesn't matter, it'll be removed just as quickly when the update is released.

Which means that he knows how the abandoned tags work, at least as well as you, as your last post shows.

If this is really that important for you, congrats, the game is likely to get the tag anyway. It won't mean it's actually abandoned though. Not sure if you'd be able to understand that.

 

[XaGnard]

Are you among those persons ?
I bet that the answer is no, therefore for you the game is free and all your argumentation is pure bullshit. But anyway, even if you had spent half a buck on the game, your argumentation would still be flawed.

Think about it, do you really think that I would choose such a formulation if I had not already given something in the past. Admittedly, it was a Patreon only for 4 months in 2019, but I'm just someone who changes quickly, and today picks out more the games that are kind of small, but with nice basic idea (often overlooked).

Like anyone who never pledged for a game before, you imagine Patreon as a subscription platform that it isn't and never was. It's a patronage/sponsorship platform. You like what someone is doing, and give her/him few bucks to help her/him be able to continue. The vast majority, if not all, Patreon accounts have a low tier where all you do is giving money. You give the money, and still you only have access to the public release, that is never the last update.

WTF?!? I have supported several projects on Patreon over the years and I am well aware of what the idea is and what some of the weaknesses of the Patreon idea are.

In general, it is important to understand that no matter how the financing may be, it is important for every project to set realistic goals and to pursue them. It's no use pretending that you have all the time in the world, only to end up with a game that's not even half finished.

Of course, you don't need to be a customer to critic something. But when you complain while not being a customer, don't be surprised when people see what you say as nothing more than an angry rant made by a barely pubescent spoiled brat.
I can complain that Sephora is over pricing, but what would be my legitimacy ? How could I be credible while I don't even need what they are selling ? I'm not some expert or authority in cosmetic and perfume price and quality. I know shit about all this and my complaint would just be as ridiculous as your constant rants.

Your major mistake is that you think criticism is something negative. I see that completely differently. For me, criticism, especially when a project like Heavy Five has gone off track, is something that can lead to improvement. That you reject this criticism, and try to discredit it with personal insults does not change the fact that the project has problems. The very fact that the developer suspends the contributions is a sign that things are not running smoothly and that the developer realizes that more is expected.

Anyway, I think it is important to point out that as a developer, you are selling the idea of the project, and therefore you have entered into a certain moral obligation also towards the previous patreons. There is no use in trying to gloss over further delays with more and more long messages. It is also important to consider whether the goals have been set too high, and whether perfectionism is standing in the way of the completion of the game.

Ultimately, i think, we all have the goal of seeing this game completed. But you also have to face reality and, if necessary, say honestly and directly that things are really bad at the moment. That doesn't mean that things can't get better again, but maybe that requires an understanding that something has to change.

 

[a1fox3]

Don't you realize that he just answered all of your 3 claims, the abandoned tag being the less important of them?

You said:

To which he replied:

Which means that the game is not abandoned, as Patrons know, no matter whether or not it gets the tag on this site. The game is being worked on, and we got some minigames in this period on top of the development news and test builds.

You said:

To which he replied:

Which means that dev is not stringing anyone for money, since she's not taking any money.

And you said:

To which he replied:

Which means that he knows how the abandoned tags work, at least as well as you, as your last post shows.

If this is really that important for you, congrats, the game is likely to get the tag anyway. It won't mean it's actually abandoned though. Not sure if you'd be able to understand that.

There is other payment option on the OP besides patreon.
It is regardless what dev has posted or testing in the background the last UPDATE for the GAME was over 17 months ago and in 16 days this should get the abandoned tag until a "GAME" update gets released.
On patreon shows the game for patreons that can be seen is the same version on here that was released over 17 months ago.

 

[moskyx]

There is other payment option on the OP besides patreon.
It is regardless what dev has posted or testing in the background the last UPDATE for the GAME was over 17 months ago and in 16 days this should get the abandoned tag until a "GAME" update gets released.
On patreon shows the game for patreons that can be seen is the same version on here that was released over 17 months ago.

Again, so what? It will get the tag, the tag will be removed whenever some new content gets out. It's simply not an abandoned game

 

[ItzSpc]

Again, so what? It will get the tag, the tag will be removed whenever some new content gets out. It's simply not an abandoned game

It's been 17 months and we're still waiting on Chapter 5. How long until it's done? Will it ever been done? Is 17+ months the standard for new chapters now? If that's to be the case, how many years will it be until this game is done? At this rate the game will never be done.

Looks like the dev is keeping their supporters on the hook by telling people the game isn't abandoned and posting low effort screenshot to convince people that the project hasn't been abandoned. Y'all are being swindled.

 

[Hullahopp]

How many pencils do we need to sharpen to get our TV to work?!
How many tantrums/whining/negative reviews do we have to write to get the developer to change her attitude?! Especially when she doesn't even read them?!
Seriously guys, aren't you bored yet? The world will not adapt to you. Neither will the developers.

 

[DanteRed]

It's been 17 months and we're still waiting on Chapter 5. How long until it's done? Will it ever been done? Is 17+ months the standard for new chapters now? If that's to be the case, how many years will it be until this game is done? At this rate the game will never be done.

Looks like the dev is keeping their supporters on the hook by telling people the game isn't abandoned and posting low effort screenshot to convince people that the project hasn't been abandoned. Y'all are being swindled.

Dude, many people have explained the situation to you. It will be done when it will be done.

You keep saying that people are swindled but you always ignore when people tell you that she has paused payment for some time. Seriously, check her Patreon status right now and you will see it says exactly that.

"How long until it's done?" And the answer is - when she feels satisfied with her work which will take some time, because she wants to make the best experience out there. She is a perfectionist. Trust me, sometimes I too wish she weren't but so far, most of her tweaks have been for the better and it's a new and improved experience compared to before.

The reason so many people are defending her is because they do what you and others like you don't want to do and that is research. She explains things quite well on her Patreon page and if that is not enough, she's quite active with her fanbase on discord, twitter and her own webpage.

She also communicates with her fans and takes the more worthwhile advice in consideration. And like others said, she did release some content for her patrons but it was just some mini-games that didn't find their way here.

Honestly, I get the frustration of the next update taking a long time but there are other things that you can do with your time. Play other games, go outside and enjoy nature or go to the beach. You don't have to spend your time on this forum repeating the same thing over and over.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Think about it, do you really think that I would choose such a formulation if I had not already given something in the past.

Like all those who complain about a dev supposed to be milking, slacking, doing it bad, or whatever which one among the eternal complaints, yes, you would without a single hesitation.

Your major mistake is that you think criticism is something negative.

Really ? Just because I gave only one example and it was a negative one ?
What I said apply as well for positive criticism. I'm still not a cosmetic and perfume expert and, not being a customer, nor even a possible one, saying that whatever brand have good products, prices, or whatever, would be as ridiculous.

[...] and try to discredit it with personal insults [...]

So, "pathetic", that is the sole word addressed to you, is a personal insult ? Well, why not.
Everything else was explicitly targeting a behavior, and not a person. Therefore, if you took it for yourself, it's your problem, not mine, and you should reconsider your life choices.

The very fact that the developer suspends the contributions is a sign that things are not running smoothly and that the developer realizes that more is expected.

It just prove that she's honest. It's far to be something new. She expect X months of development, and when she goes over this time, or are not effectively working on the next chapter, the pledges are frozen.
Did she plan badly ? Perhaps, but not more than all professionals are doing. And in the end it's her who's impacted by it, not us. It's a game, not a drug, one can perfectly live without it and if, what have near to no risk to happen, the game is not finished, it will not kill us.
There's thing more important in life than complaining, almost days after days, about the same thing on a forum thread. And I'm not talking about war, famine or whatever. I'm talking about things that can add something to your daily life ; family, friends, and whatever is your passion. But well, if your passion is to bitch on a forum, I'll not starts to kink shame you.

Anyway, I think it is important to point out that as a developer, you are selling the idea of the project, and therefore you have entered into a certain moral obligation also towards the previous patreons.

And once again the subscription bias...

When I tip a waiter, he have no moral obligation towards me, in fact he have no obligation at all. You don't pledge on the future, you pledge as reward for what have been previously done. It's a part of the reason why, by example, there's still people willingly pledging for ICSTOR ; from their point of view his years of creation and ~10 finished games still worth it, this whatever he's now doing.
As indie and amateur developer, the only obligation you have is towards yourself. Unlike the waiter from my example, that have for obligation to serve you, because he's payed for it, an indie amateur developer have no obligations. (S)he can perfectly develop on his own and never release anything. If there's people who decide to pledge in those conditions, it's not the developer fault, nor her/his responsibility. They are knowingly doing this on their own, for their own reasons, and you have no say on this ; you aren't more an expert on money spending, than you are on game development.

There is no use in trying to gloss over further delays with more and more long messages.

And there's even less use in trying to change this by pilling up, days after days, posts carrying exactly the same message, on a place that is barely read by the person you want to address this message. Yet you are doing it since some times now, and clearly believe that it's the right thing to do.

It is also important to consider whether the goals have been set too high, and whether perfectionism is standing in the way of the completion of the game.

Who is saying that it's standing on the way of the completion of the game, except you ?
From Notty point of view, the game will be completed only when she'll be fully satisfied by it. Therefore whatever if she's releasing chapter 5 this night, it would change nothing, the chapters 1 to 5 wouldn't be completed yet. It's for you, and only for you, that it would change something, because you would finally be able to play this said chapter 5.
So, stop hiding behind what you expect to be noble principles. The truth isn't that you care about the delay, the truth is that you want to play the game, and to see its conclusion, as soon as possible, this whatever the quality it will come with.
And, in before, she's perfectly aware that life can be a bitch and that she can die tomorrow ; what obvious I don't wish her. But the fact is that she prefer to deceive Heavy Five fans by letting the game unfinished because life would have decided that way, than to deceive both the fans and herself by releasing something she find purely imperfect (to stay polite).
This is known since years, and if you effectively were a patron for four months in 2019, you already know it.

Ultimately, i think, we all have the goal of seeing this game completed.

No. I, and I know that I talk in the name of some here when saying this, have the goal to see Notty be happy by what she did. Whatever if the game is completed or not, as long as she's smiling, it's good for us. We are a bunch of crazy old folks (some older than others), and it's how we see life.

But you also have to face reality and, if necessary, say honestly and directly that things are really bad at the moment.

We can't say that things are really bad at the moment, and in the same time be honest. After months of near depressive state due to her car crash, Notty is smiling, and have a lot of fun working on her game. Therefore, things are really good at the moment, way better than they were six months ago.
It's from your point of view, that worth any other one, that things are bad. You are waiting for you dose, feeling withdrawal, and you have difficulties to face it.

That doesn't mean that things can't get better again, but maybe that requires an understanding that something has to change.

Well, learn patience, starts to appreciate things like and when they come, and stop to over care for what is nothing more than a game. You'll see, this simple change will make things get better again for you.

 

[reiterhaniwa]

How long until it's done? Will it ever been done? Is 17+ months the standard for new chapters now? If that's to be the case, how many years will it be until this game is done?

The alt-text for this one is a delight.

 

[I'm Not Thea Lundgren!]

... go outside ...

Are you mental? There's people in the outside!!!

 

[moskyx]

It's been 17 months and we're still waiting on Chapter 5. How long until it's done? Will it ever been done? Is 17+ months the standard for new chapters now? If that's to be the case, how many years will it be until this game is done? At this rate the game will never be done.

Looks like the dev is keeping their supporters on the hook by telling people the game isn't abandoned and posting low effort screenshot to convince people that the project hasn't been abandoned. Y'all are being swindled.

Let's apply your twisted logic. She is lying her 230 now-non-paying patrons (plus her 7k social media followers) making and posting minigames as well as different playable parts of a game she is **totally not** making while monthly refusing to get 1,2k USD so that she can cash in a few bucks from some poor individuals who started pledging since last April and never got charged again. That would be the weirdest swindle ever, honestly. Sounds so dumb that I'm wondering why you aren't trying your luck at it. It would fit you well.

 

[XaGnard]

How many pencils do we need to sharpen to get our TV to work?!
How many tantrums/whining/negative reviews do we have to write to get the developer to change her attitude?! Especially when she doesn't even read them?!
Seriously guys, aren't you bored yet? The world will not adapt to you. Neither will the developers.

Like almost all public criticism, it is about addressing all sides. Not just the developer, but the community as a whole. As long as you talk about the game, no matter if critical or not, it fits here. Why should you pretend that everything is fine in a game that is on the brink like Heavy Five? Just as I don't go around badmouthing optimistic posts, there's no reason to try to suppress a discussion that tries to point out problems.

I'm convinced that Heavy Five, similar to some other larger projects, is at high risk to fail due to too ambitious goals. In particular, the fact that a never-ending update follows directly after the remaster is a really clear signal for excessive perfectionism that seems to lose sight of the goal to actually finish this game.

 

[Hullahopp]

Like almost all public criticism, it is about addressing all sides. Not just the developer, but the community as a whole. As long as you talk about the game, no matter if critical or not, it fits here. Why should you pretend that everything is fine in a game that is on the brink like Heavy Five? Just as I don't go around badmouthing optimistic posts, there's no reason to try to suppress a discussion that tries to point out problems.

I'm convinced that Heavy Five, similar to some other larger projects, is at high risk to fail due to too ambitious goals. In particular, the fact that a never-ending update follows directly after the remaster is a really clear signal for excessive perfectionism that seems to lose sight of the goal to actually finish this game.

I was not happy about COVID. I am not happy about the Ukrainian-Russian war. I was not happy about Notty's car accident. But some things are out of our control. We are not going to finish the game, the developer is.
You think excessive perfectionism is bad for the project. I think so too. But Nottravis thinks otherwise. I accept his decision because it's his game, I'm just a user. I am not helping anyone by criticising the game for being late.
It's like trying to clear a traffic jam by honking the horn continuously. It's a way of expressing your displeasure, your impatience, your helplessness, you get the illusion of "I did something!". But traffic will not move any faster.

 

[XaGnard]

I was not happy about COVID. I am not happy about the Ukrainian-Russian war. I was not happy about Notty's car accident. But some things are out of our control. We are not going to finish the game, the developer is.
You think excessive perfectionism is bad for the project. I think so too. But Nottravis thinks otherwise. I accept his decision because it's his game, I'm just a user. I am not helping anyone by criticising the game for being late.
It's like trying to clear a traffic jam by honking the horn continuously. It's a way of expressing your displeasure, your impatience, your helplessness, you get the illusion of "I did something!". But traffic will not move any faster.

Don't worry, I'm not writing here out of helplessness, but because I have fun doing so. Also, I think you shouldn't talk down the power of consumers like that. Of course, a single voice carries little weight, but if you are convincing in the long term, you can definitely have an influence. Ultimately, it's a bit about remember that there's something seriously wrong with the development of H5.

Anyway, I think for any project above a certain size it always makes sense to think about the risks of failure, and possibly take appropriate countermeasures. In particular, if the risks for external influences (e.g. Covid, accident, ...) cannot be reduced because only one person is involved in the project, it becomes particularly important not to set the project duration too generously, because the likelihood of such an event occurring is increased by the length of a project. It's just not smart to have a one person project lasts more than 4-5 years.

 

[anne O'nymous]

In particular, the fact that a never-ending update follows directly after the remaster is [...]

A chance then that there where the chapter 4 released in between.

That would be the weirdest swindle ever, honestly.

Wait a bit, and he'll say that she's as bad as scamming people than as developing a game.

 

[ItzSpc]

"How long until it's done?" And the answer is - when she feels satisfied with her work which will take some time, because she wants to make the best experience out there. She is a perfectionist. Trust me, sometimes I too wish she weren't but so far, most of her tweaks have been for the better and it's a new and improved experience compared to before.

The problem with her perfectionism and people defending it, is clearly they've never heard the expression death by analysis, from paralysis. In other words, if you over analysis your project, to the point you're never satisfied with the product to release it into the public, then that creative process paralyzes you. You know, they say if it were up to engineers to decide when an automobile was ready to be sold publicly, then it would never leave the factory floor. The fact that it's taken over 17+ months and Chapter 5 is still not ready to be released is only proving these sayings to be true.

The people complaining about the delays, such as myself want the game to be completed same as you, the difference is we've lost confidence in her creative process being able to complete the game. Someone needs to convince her that her perfectionism is more of an hindrance than an assist. Imagine going through life never accepting anything less than perfect, the perfect wife, the perfect job, the perfect house, the perfect friends, etc. You'd never be satisfied and you'd never find perfect because perfect doesn't exist.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The fact that it's taken over 17+ months and Chapter 5 is still not ready to be released is only proving these sayings to be true.

No, the fact is that she had a car crash that left her with a severe injury. With the NHS being underfunded and over saturated due to the pandemic, and the staff being exhausted due to both, she needed near to eight months (from memory, perhaps a bit less or a bit more), and to go private, before her injury was fixed and she really stopped to suffer from it. Not really the good conditions to be creative and, as she recognize herself, too much free time to think about what could have been done better.

The people complaining about the delays, such as myself want the game to be completed same as you, the difference is we've lost confidence in her creative process being able to complete the game.

Then what are you doing here ? If you've lost confidence that the game will be completed one day, why also loosing your time waiting for the next update ?

 

[DanteRed]

You know, they say if it were up to engineers to decide when an automobile was ready to be sold publicly, then it would never leave the factory floor. The fact that it's taken over 17+ months and Chapter 5 is still not ready to be released is only proving these sayings to be true.

Yeah and do you know who says that? The guys in charge who don't give a crap about safety and are just interested in money, safety be damned. That's why we have yearly Apple phones and Fifa games which are basically the same crap, just with some minor improvements, if even those.