Ren'Py Heavy Five [Ch.2RS] [Nottravis]

[Goblin Baily: DILF]

*nods nods nods!*

Galaxy defenders don't act like you don't remember
Taking contenders and provin' they only pretenders
Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls
The men is black is back to protect the world
When the enemy is near the elite is here
So have no fear, just let me see you
When we get down with the black suits, baby
Just let it loose up in here, go crazy
(Let me see you nod ya head)
The way you're bouncin' and shakin'
I know you're feelin' me, so get up out ya seat
Come on and nod ya head with me

 

[Huitieme]

Minigames can theoretically be a good Idea IF they enhance the Immersion of a game. Sadly most of the time they are just there to mask a lack of actual content.
And workflow-wise it's just a simple question: In the time it takes me to program the minigame, could I be doing something else (eg. create another scene) and would that be more worthwhile? If yes, then no minigame.
So in essence: Having a Minigame in a game should be the exception, not the rule.

Good points.
I'd add the fact that, while dev are often wishing to break some monotony or try to involve the player more with mini games, it's more often than not a story flow breaker if the game isn't centered around this specific gameplay. It's the implementation that will make the difference between a fun mini game and a chore.
E.g. having to probe planets on ME2 (even though I didn't dislike it, if there's an immersion breaker, it's this one).

 

[Nottravis]

Good points.
I'd add the fact that, while dev are often wishing to break some monotony or try to involve the player more with mini games, it's more often than not a story flow breaker if the game isn't centered around this specific gameplay. It's the implementation that will make the difference between a fun mini game and a chore.
E.g. having to probe planets on ME2 (even though I didn't dislike it, if there's an immersion breaker, it's this one).

Yeppers, totes agree. It's why I keep taking mine out.

This time, however, it seems to fit better. Well, both the MC and "slayer of poopheads" could do with some practice so it fits nicely, yet win or lose it's not a game breaker. (it's nicer to win mind, although losing in some circumstances depending on your preferences the last time you played with her has it's compensations...)

 

[TheDevian]

Yeppers, totes agree. It's why I keep taking mine out.

This time, however, it seems to fit better. Well, both the MC and "slayer of poopheads" could do with some practice so it fits nicely, yet win or lose it's not a game breaker. (it's nicer to win mind, although losing in some circumstances depending on your preferences the last time you played with her has it's compensations...)

A combat minigame isn't too bad, as long as it flows nicely, and doesn't seem too unbalanced. For example, of the games combat system did not seem to matter what your levels were, what your attack or defense stats were, only your hit points and number of potions. It seems a bit unbalanced if a level 2 NPC can take out a level 50 player without too much trouble, if the player doesn't have healing potions.

 

[Nottravis]

A combat minigame isn't too bad, as long as it flows nicely, and doesn't seem too unbalanced. For example, of the games combat system did not seem to matter what your levels were, what your attack or defense stats were, only your hit points and number of potions. It seems a bit unbalanced if a level 2 NPC can take out a level 50 player without too much trouble, if the player doesn't have healing potions.

Well, they were both fairly hopeless from what I recall so seems an even fight

 

[Goblin Baily: DILF]

Well, they were both fairly hopeless from what I recall so seems an even fight

sou

Spoiler: VR game

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[Nottravis]

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Taking it a bit easier for the next day or so after a flurry of activity of late. I've set the pin-ups on autopost for the next couple of days so they should (if I've done it right!) still pop through.

Catch you later!

 

[frap]

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Taking it a bit easier for the next day or so after a flurry of activity of late. I've set the pin-ups on autopost for the next couple of days so they should (if I've done it right!) still pop through.

Catch you later!

Get some rest, young lady!

And tell the neighbor in the upstairs flat that Morris dancing in clogs at 3am is not acceptable!*


*Because that's how it always happens to me when I'm trying to rest.

 

[johnconnor]

Minigames have their place if the reward is worth the play.

In this case, Nottravis, imagine your circuit-making game (which is probably like most every other Pipe-Dream-a-like, no offense), but you're not playing to just solve it, you're playing for efficiency. If you can solve the puzzle with 10 pieces, you only have time for one social event. If you solve it with seven, you get done sooner and can have two encounters. If you manage to solve it with five pieces, you have finished early enough to do both encounters plus a special scene.

Much better than "fix this or don't proceed" IMHO.

 

[jdoch]

Minigames have their place if the reward is worth the play.

In this case, Nottravis, imagine your circuit-making game (which is probably like most every other Pipe-Dream-a-like, no offense), but you're not playing to just solve it, you're playing for efficiency. If you can solve the puzzle with 10 pieces, you only have time for one social event. If you solve it with seven, you get done sooner and can have two encounters. If you manage to solve it with five pieces, you have finished early enough to do both encounters plus a special scene.

Much better than "fix this or don't proceed" IMHO.

Sorry, I completely disagree with this.

Just because you force some artificial reward into it doesn't make a minigame worthwhile. That's quite the opposite in fact: It means that now i can't even just do the minigame, now I have to actually retry it over and over (already sounds like a chore doesn't it?) just so that I can see all the scenes.

A Minigame is only worthwhile if it enhances immersion, like I said above. To give an example: You have a scene where the pilot is incapacitated and now you have to take the Stick. A GREAT, ENGAGING and FUN minigame follows which lets you fly the shuttle and thus furthers the immersion. You don't need any reward because playing the game is the reward.

Frankly I think the odds of having something like that in one of the games on this site are slim to none because it would take far more resources than are available to the devs here and even if they had these resources they could be spent better elsewhere.

The Mass Effect Minigames are actually a great example: They are pretty polished but are still a worthless annoyance. Nothing in this game makes it plausible that a lone Rebel ship would have to farm resources on planets instead of just raiding outposts (which you do but apparently don't take enough). They completely take the player out of the flow of the game, annoy the heck out of the player and all just to tack a completely artificial and superfluous resource managment system onto an RPG game and artificially inflate the playtime.

Now Raiding Outposts on the other hand, that's fun. You have amazing gunplay, tactical options and all the other goodies that Mass Effect is known for. Why not let the player do more of that and give them Resources for it?

In conclusion: When your minigame comes up do the Players go "Yay, Minigame! Awesome!"? If not then forget about it.

 

[Akamari]

Sorry, I completely disagree with this.

Just because you force some artificial reward into it doesn't make a minigame worthwhile. That's quite the opposite in fact: It means that now i can't even just do the minigame, now I have to actually retry it over and over (already sounds like a chore doesn't it?) just so that I can see all the scenes.

A Minigame is only worthwhile if it enhances immersion, like I said above. To give an example: You have a scene where the pilot is incapacitated and now you have to take the Stick. A GREAT, ENGAGING and FUN minigame follows which lets you fly the shuttle and thus furthers the immersion. You don't need any reward because playing the game is the reward.

Frankly I think the odds of having something like that in one of the games on this site are slim to none because it would take far more resources than are available to the devs here and even if they had these resources they could be spent better elsewhere.

The Mass Effect Minigames are actually a great example: They are pretty polished but are still a worthless annoyance. Nothing in this game makes it plausible that a lone Rebel ship would have to farm resources on planets instead of just raiding outposts (which you do but apparently don't take enough). They completely take the player out of the flow of the game, annoy the heck out of the player and all just to tack a completely artificial and superfluous resource managment system onto an RPG game and artificially inflate the playtime.

Now Raiding Outposts on the other hand, that's fun. You have amazing gunplay, tactical options and all the other goodies that Mass Effect is known for. Why not let the player do more of that and give them Resources for it?

In conclusion if you can beat the odds and create a minigame that actually pulls the player deeper into the Story then use it, but if the player only tries to get it over with to get some reward that you artificially gated behind the minigame, do yourself a favor and forget about it.

Agreed. "Is the minigame fun?" is the paramount question. IMO the best example of how to implement minigames is Yakuza series. I've played only the first and the prequel, but there is a huge variety of minigames. Some of those I've had a ton of fun with (like the cabaret club management), some I haven't even touched (like Mahjong). Thing is pretty much everyone can find some to their liking. The most important thing is that they are completely optional and they never hamper progress in the main story.

In visual novels, I'd single out Little Busters!, which to my surprise I can't find here even though it has 18+ version. It has a baseball training minigame that I had absolute blast with when I played it back in the day. It's just simple batting for a few minutes without any meaningful goal or reward aside from accidentely hitting one heroine's many cats. And yet, I was looking forward to playing it every game day. I recall there was also a martial training minigame pitting heroines against each other that I found boring and skipped it every time. So, although there was one I liked and one I didn't, this is an example where minigames enriched the experience for me.

 

[Nottravis]

Sorry, I completely disagree with this.

Just because you force some artificial reward into it doesn't make a minigame worthwhile. That's quite the opposite in fact: It means that now i can't even just do the minigame, now I have to actually retry it over and over (already sounds like a chore doesn't it?) just so that I can see all the scenes.

A Minigame is only worthwhile if it enhances immersion, like I said above. To give an example: You have a scene where the pilot is incapacitated and now you have to take the Stick. A GREAT, ENGAGING and FUN minigame follows which lets you fly the shuttle and thus furthers the immersion. You don't need any reward because playing the game is the reward.

Frankly I think the odds of having something like that in one of the games on this site are slim to none because it would take far more resources than are available to the devs here and even if they had these resources they could be spent better elsewhere.

The Mass Effect Minigames are actually a great example: They are pretty polished but are still a worthless annoyance. Nothing in this game makes it plausible that a lone Rebel ship would have to farm resources on planets instead of just raiding outposts (which you do but apparently don't take enough). They completely take the player out of the flow of the game, annoy the heck out of the player and all just to tack a completely artificial and superfluous resource managment system onto an RPG game and artificially inflate the playtime.

Now Raiding Outposts on the other hand, that's fun. You have amazing gunplay, tactical options and all the other goodies that Mass Effect is known for. Why not let the player do more of that and give them Resources for it?

In conclusion: When your minigame comes up do the Players go "Yay, Minigame! Awesome!"? If not then forget about it.

Agreed. "Is the minigame fun?" is the paramount question. IMO the best example of how to implement minigames is Yakuza series. I've played only the first and the prequel, but there is a huge variety of minigames. Some of those I've had a ton of fun with (like the cabaret club management), some I haven't even touched (like Mahjong). Thing is pretty much everyone can find some to their liking. The most important thing is that they are completely optional and they never hamper progress in the main story.

This is exactly what concerns me (and I do share these views) - and why I keep taking them out.

We'll see what the volunteers feel about the latest mini-game attempt once I've stopped faffing with it.

If they don't think it adds, I can just strip it out and put what I originally had in back in March. I can always just put it up as a bonus download for people to play if they feel like it.

Oops! I'm not to be here today...*runs off*

 

[TheDevian]

The mini-game itself should be fun, and in a game like this, it should only flavor the reward, not add or remove it. This is the ACIO playground after all, with supposedly few if anymore game ending endings.

Like take this scenario for example, Sarah challenges you to an optional dual in the VR game and the winner gets to demand something of the loser. If you win, you get a sexy scene where you are telling her what to do, and if you lose, then you get one where she is telling you what to do and is more aggressive in the scene. This way while you might want to do both to see both scenes, you don't really lose anything by only doing one or the other, or by not being good at it, or whatever. I mean, this could even be the same scenes, just with different dialogue flavor. If she wins, she could demand that you eat her out (maybe in the girl form? that could make it require different renders though unless the player was feeling adventurous the first time and wants to do it again) and if you win you can command her to lay down saying something like 'I want to taste you' as an example (to be nice it could also work into a 69 so they both have 'fun' lol).

 

[frap]

...

Oops! I'm not to be here today...*runs off*

*wags finger menacingly*

 

[Paradox101]

Is being teased a fetish or something? Jeez..

 

[TheDevian]

Is being teased a fetish or something? Jeez..

For some people.

 

[johnconnor]

Sorry, I completely disagree with this.

Just because you force some artificial reward into it doesn't make a minigame worthwhile. That's quite the opposite in fact: It means that now i can't even just do the minigame, now I have to actually retry it over and over (already sounds like a chore doesn't it?) just so that I can see all the scenes.

A Minigame is only worthwhile if it enhances immersion, like I said above. To give an example: You have a scene where the pilot is incapacitated and now you have to take the Stick. A GREAT, ENGAGING and FUN minigame follows which lets you fly the shuttle and thus furthers the immersion. You don't need any reward because playing the game is the reward.

Frankly I think the odds of having something like that in one of the games on this site are slim to none because it would take far more resources than are available to the devs here and even if they had these resources they could be spent better elsewhere.

The Mass Effect Minigames are actually a great example: They are pretty polished but are still a worthless annoyance. Nothing in this game makes it plausible that a lone Rebel ship would have to farm resources on planets instead of just raiding outposts (which you do but apparently don't take enough). They completely take the player out of the flow of the game, annoy the heck out of the player and all just to tack a completely artificial and superfluous resource managment system onto an RPG game and artificially inflate the playtime.

Now Raiding Outposts on the other hand, that's fun. You have amazing gunplay, tactical options and all the other goodies that Mass Effect is known for. Why not let the player do more of that and give them Resources for it?

In conclusion: When your minigame comes up do the Players go "Yay, Minigame! Awesome!"? If not then forget about it.

Agreed. "Is the minigame fun?" is the paramount question. IMO the best example of how to implement minigames is Yakuza series. I've played only the first and the prequel, but there is a huge variety of minigames. Some of those I've had a ton of fun with (like the cabaret club management), some I haven't even touched (like Mahjong). Thing is pretty much everyone can find some to their liking. The most important thing is that they are completely optional and they never hamper progress in the main story.

In visual novels, I'd single out Little Busters!, which to my surprise I can't find here even though it has 18+ version. It has a baseball training minigame that I had absolute blast with when I played it back in the day. It's just simple batting for a few minutes without any meaningful goal or reward aside from accidentely hitting one heroine's many cats. And yet, I was looking forward to playing it every game day. I recall there was also a martial training minigame pitting heroines against each other that I found boring and skipped it every time. So, although there was one I liked and one I didn't, this is an example where minigames enriched the experience for me.

You two make great points, and I agree that a minigame needs to be fun in order to be worth the time to the player. In the same breath, you can't have a minigame that stonewalls the player until they solve it- otherwise it's just a fancy key to a lock on the rest of the game. There's a few jigsaw puzzle examples in the adult game space that come to mind.

A minigame also needs to matter to the game lest it's just tacked on to inflate the time it takes to play. So not only does a player need to say "Yay, Minigame! Awesome!" but also "I hope I do well!" without forcing the player to grind, which sucks, which is why so many of these games with money are terribly boring.

The logic puzzle in Dishonored 2 is a good example- you can figure it out to unlock the door and get an achievement, or walk the long way around and still the game moves forward. Perhaps that's the crux of a good minigame- it should be optional in case a player doesn't like it or isn't good at that minigame skill or simply isn't in the mood.

Apologies if my off-the-cuff idea about time and scenes wasn't 100% baked.

 

[nvts]

about mini games, i liked what Dual Family did. even though that game is a mess, the completely optional mini-games that just unlocked some individual pictures were a lot of fun. they weren't part of the main game and you had to access them through the menu. i think its a good way of fleshing out a visual novel

 

[Nottravis]

A minigame also needs to matter to the game lest it's just tacked on to inflate the time it takes to play. So not only does a player need to say "Yay, Minigame! Awesome!" but also "I hope I do well!" without forcing the player to grind, which sucks, which is why so many of these games with money are terribly boring.

*nods rapidly* It's exactly this why I took them out of One and Two (you can tell where they used to be fairly obviously).

about mini games, i liked what Dual Family did. even though that game is a mess, the completely optional mini-games that just unlocked some individual pictures were a lot of fun. they weren't part of the main game and you had to access them through the menu. i think its a good way of fleshing out a visual novel

A very good and fair point.

I'm lucky in that I can use the PDA for a bunch of bonus content so I can add fun things, like BP and RPS, without distracting from the story/main game on a similiar basis. If the game with Sarah sucks as part of the main chapter, I'll probably change the renders to a non cannon girl and slap it in there as an extra instead.

Speaking of RPS, since the recent pin-up series seems to have gone down well in some quarters, I'm pondering

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for Chapter Four RPS...or would a different girl be better do you think?

 

[Akamari]

Speaking of RPS, since the recent pin-up series seems to have gone down well in some quarters, I'm pondering

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for Chapter Four RPS...or would a different girl be better do you think?

A different girl. Although I like the pin-ups, I don't think this should become Becca's RPS. You have plenty of other interesting characters, that would surely like to play, right?

Likewise, I'd prefer a different costume to keep things fresh.

How about a poll to let the patrons choose a next girl (of the "elegible" girls of course) for the RPS just like you do with BP? There are never enough polls.