Ren'Py Heavy Five [Ch.2RS] [Nottravis]

[Hullahopp]

Like almost all public criticism, it is about addressing all sides. Not just the developer, but the community as a whole. As long as you talk about the game, no matter if critical or not, it fits here. Why should you pretend that everything is fine in a game that is on the brink like Heavy Five? Just as I don't go around badmouthing optimistic posts, there's no reason to try to suppress a discussion that tries to point out problems.

I'm convinced that Heavy Five, similar to some other larger projects, is at high risk to fail due to too ambitious goals. In particular, the fact that a never-ending update follows directly after the remaster is a really clear signal for excessive perfectionism that seems to lose sight of the goal to actually finish this game.

I was not happy about COVID. I am not happy about the Ukrainian-Russian war. I was not happy about Notty's car accident. But some things are out of our control. We are not going to finish the game, the developer is.
You think excessive perfectionism is bad for the project. I think so too. But Nottravis thinks otherwise. I accept his decision because it's his game, I'm just a user. I am not helping anyone by criticising the game for being late.
It's like trying to clear a traffic jam by honking the horn continuously. It's a way of expressing your displeasure, your impatience, your helplessness, you get the illusion of "I did something!". But traffic will not move any faster.

 

[XaGnard]

I was not happy about COVID. I am not happy about the Ukrainian-Russian war. I was not happy about Notty's car accident. But some things are out of our control. We are not going to finish the game, the developer is.
You think excessive perfectionism is bad for the project. I think so too. But Nottravis thinks otherwise. I accept his decision because it's his game, I'm just a user. I am not helping anyone by criticising the game for being late.
It's like trying to clear a traffic jam by honking the horn continuously. It's a way of expressing your displeasure, your impatience, your helplessness, you get the illusion of "I did something!". But traffic will not move any faster.

Don't worry, I'm not writing here out of helplessness, but because I have fun doing so. Also, I think you shouldn't talk down the power of consumers like that. Of course, a single voice carries little weight, but if you are convincing in the long term, you can definitely have an influence. Ultimately, it's a bit about remember that there's something seriously wrong with the development of H5.

Anyway, I think for any project above a certain size it always makes sense to think about the risks of failure, and possibly take appropriate countermeasures. In particular, if the risks for external influences (e.g. Covid, accident, ...) cannot be reduced because only one person is involved in the project, it becomes particularly important not to set the project duration too generously, because the likelihood of such an event occurring is increased by the length of a project. It's just not smart to have a one person project lasts more than 4-5 years.

 

[anne O'nymous]

In particular, the fact that a never-ending update follows directly after the remaster is [...]

A chance then that there where the chapter 4 released in between.

That would be the weirdest swindle ever, honestly.

Wait a bit, and he'll say that she's as bad as scamming people than as developing a game.

 

[ItzSpc]

"How long until it's done?" And the answer is - when she feels satisfied with her work which will take some time, because she wants to make the best experience out there. She is a perfectionist. Trust me, sometimes I too wish she weren't but so far, most of her tweaks have been for the better and it's a new and improved experience compared to before.

The problem with her perfectionism and people defending it, is clearly they've never heard the expression death by analysis, from paralysis. In other words, if you over analysis your project, to the point you're never satisfied with the product to release it into the public, then that creative process paralyzes you. You know, they say if it were up to engineers to decide when an automobile was ready to be sold publicly, then it would never leave the factory floor. The fact that it's taken over 17+ months and Chapter 5 is still not ready to be released is only proving these sayings to be true.

The people complaining about the delays, such as myself want the game to be completed same as you, the difference is we've lost confidence in her creative process being able to complete the game. Someone needs to convince her that her perfectionism is more of an hindrance than an assist. Imagine going through life never accepting anything less than perfect, the perfect wife, the perfect job, the perfect house, the perfect friends, etc. You'd never be satisfied and you'd never find perfect because perfect doesn't exist.

 

[anne O'nymous]

The fact that it's taken over 17+ months and Chapter 5 is still not ready to be released is only proving these sayings to be true.

No, the fact is that she had a car crash that left her with a severe injury. With the NHS being underfunded and over saturated due to the pandemic, and the staff being exhausted due to both, she needed near to eight months (from memory, perhaps a bit less or a bit more), and to go private, before her injury was fixed and she really stopped to suffer from it. Not really the good conditions to be creative and, as she recognize herself, too much free time to think about what could have been done better.

The people complaining about the delays, such as myself want the game to be completed same as you, the difference is we've lost confidence in her creative process being able to complete the game.

Then what are you doing here ? If you've lost confidence that the game will be completed one day, why also loosing your time waiting for the next update ?

 

[DanteRed]

You know, they say if it were up to engineers to decide when an automobile was ready to be sold publicly, then it would never leave the factory floor. The fact that it's taken over 17+ months and Chapter 5 is still not ready to be released is only proving these sayings to be true.

Yeah and do you know who says that? The guys in charge who don't give a crap about safety and are just interested in money, safety be damned. That's why we have yearly Apple phones and Fifa games which are basically the same crap, just with some minor improvements, if even those.

 

[ItzSpc]

Yeah and do you know who says that? The guys in charge who don't give a crap about safety and are just interested in money, safety be damned. That's why we have yearly Apple phones and Fifa games which are basically the same crap, just with some minor improvements, if even those.

You can criticize them for mediocrity but the mere fact Apple is able to reliably and consistently release new products every year is why the company's net worth is $2.2 trillion.

 

[Hullahopp]

Don't worry, I'm not writing here out of helplessness, but because I have fun doing so. Also, I think you shouldn't talk down the power of consumers like that. Of course, a single voice carries little weight, but if you are convincing in the long term, you can definitely have an influence. Ultimately, it's a bit about remember that there's something seriously wrong with the development of H5.

Anyway, I think for any project above a certain size it always makes sense to think about the risks of failure, and possibly take appropriate countermeasures. In particular, if the risks for external influences (e.g. Covid, accident, ...) cannot be reduced because only one person is involved in the project, it becomes particularly important not to set the project duration too generously, because the likelihood of such an event occurring is increased by the length of a project. It's just not smart to have a one person project lasts more than 4-5 years.

Well, get George R.R. Martin to write The Winds of Winter. Somewhat better known and more popular than the Heavy Five. We have been waiting since 2011. So much for the "power" and "influence" of consumers. It was not bad for a joke.
(I can give some examples of games from here before someone complains that I dare to compare Notty and Martin.)

What countermeasures do you want to take? I really do not understand what you mean.

 

[ItzSpc]

Well, get George R.R. Martin to write The Winds of Winter. Somewhat better known and more popular than the Heavy Five. We have been waiting since 2011. So much for the "power" and "influence" of consumers. It was not bad for a joke.
(I can give some examples of games from here before someone complains that I dare to compare Notty and Martin.)

What countermeasures do you want to take? I really do not understand what you mean.

That's not a fair comparison. Not because it's taken him as long as it has to complete the Winds of Winter, but because he has already completed 5 novels in the GOT series. There's also the fact, we're talking about waiting for the 6th novel here, whereas with Notty we're still waiting for the 5th chapter. On a scale of work they're just not comparable. i.e The entire A Song of Ice and Fire series (so far) is 1,770,000 words.

 

[DanteRed]

You can criticize them for mediocrity but the mere fact Apple is able to reliably and consistently release new products every year is why the company's net worth is $2.2 trillion.

That's because they don't have much competition on the market and most of the sales are from Americans who think quantity is the same as quality.

But I'm going offtopic now. You've said your piece, I said mine. It's obvious that neither is going to convince the other so let's agree to disagree regarding Heavy Five and leave it at that.

Let me make it clear, I too am wary when it comes to devs taking over a year to release an update. The only reason I'm understanding and making an exception for her is because I'm doing to research, to understand why the delay is happening. So far, she hasn't given me a reason to doubt her.

 

[Hullahopp]

Imagine going through life never accepting anything less than perfect, the perfect wife, the perfect job, the perfect house, the perfect friends, etc. You'd never be satisfied and you'd never find perfect because perfect doesn't exist.

I partly agree with you, but it's not the game that worries me, it's Notty's health. I have seen where perfectionism leads. I wouldn't enjoy the game if I knew that she was destroyed mentally because of it.

Someone needs to convince her that her perfectionism is more of an hindrance than an assist.

Somebody do something. Thanks.

You can criticize them for mediocrity but the mere fact Apple is able to reliably and consistently release new products every year is why the company's net worth is $2.2 trillion.

Yes, Notty is not a good trader. Apple will not make better quality if there is no demand for it. Just don't complain that the movies are boring (Marvel) or the games are mediocre.

That's not a fair comparison.

Read it again, because you misunderstood. Was Martin convinced by the power of the audience?
"Fuck, I'll never be ready, and so many people are waiting! I'll work faster from now on!" Did he say something like that? Nope.

Look, there are some games on the site that are clear milkings. I know of one that started in 2017 and is going nowhere. I regularly warn everyone in that thread that this is a scam. But they still have 647 supporters and they will take the amount paid without a second thought.

 

[ItzSpc]

I partly agree with you, but it's not the game that worries me, it's Notty's health. I have seen where perfectionism leads. I wouldn't enjoy the game if I knew that she was destroyed mentally because of it.

Somebody do something. Thanks.

Yes, Notty is not a good trader. Apple will not make better quality if there is no demand for it. Just don't complain that the movies are boring (Marvel) or the games are mediocre.

Read it again, because you misunderstood. Was Martin convinced by the power of the audience?
"Fuck, I'll never be ready, and so many people are waiting! I'll work faster from now on!" Did he say something like that? Nope.

Look, there are some games on the site that are clear milkings. I know of one that started in 2017 and is going nowhere. I regularly warn everyone in that thread that this is a scam. But they still have 647 supporters and they will take the amount paid without a second thought.

For once we agree.

 

[Dragon59]

I find many of these discussions remind me of Mike Teevee's mom in the original Willy Wonka movie. Wonka enters a musical key and trying to show off her knowledge to the other parents, she confidently says, "Rachmaninoff." The thing is, the piece is not by Rachmaninoff at all, it's a bit of the Overture from The Marriage of Figaro by Mozart.

I see so many people being a Mrs. Teevee on the forums.

 

[Leo Humilis]

That's because they don't have much competition on the market and most of the sales are from Americans who think quantity is the same as quality.

But I'm going offtopic now. You've said your piece, I said mine. It's obvious that neither is going to convince the other so let's agree to disagree regarding Heavy Five and leave it at that.

Let me make it clear, I too am wary when it comes to devs taking over a year to release an update. The only reason I'm understanding and making an exception for her is because I'm doing to research, to understand why the delay is happening. So far, she hasn't given me a reason to doubt her.

To be frank, most authors do not give a flying fuck about what such self-proclaimed so-called "customers" (most of whom never actually paid a dime for the author's work or contributed otherwise) think. Furthermore, you'd be surprised by how little may creators actually care about things like "market", "competition" and "financial incentive" (because the creative process is often pretty much a reward of its own).

 

[sdibolcrif]

Does Chris' first JOI session ever actually end without actually clicking Orgasm?

 

[Cabin]

This thread went from happy go lucky to world war 3 .
Chill down guys she just posted 3 days ago on patreon working on the battles.
If she wants to attain perfection she will do it. Who are we to complain when we are not even paying her and playing the game for free here.

 

[manominouslyme]

Gosh.
I'll keep it at a constructive level. And skip any form of patronizing or lecture. Nobody cares about my white male insecurities.

- I'm not fond of the 4th wall break between each chapter. One time would have been enough as an explanatory feature

- I'm not fond of the goblins/gremlins aliens. It gives a Medfan taste to a SciFi game. I understand that models can be limited though.

- Also, I'm not sure calling it "Chapter 1. 2. 3. 4" is really helping.
Humor me please. When I DL the game, I expected content that wasn't there yet. Just because it was said as "at chapter four" and described extensively in regards of numbers of renders, animations, words. All this giving an impression of plentiness that I somehow failed to see within the game in its current state. If story is obviously a big plus, in porn games, it's porn that matters the most. Everything else revolves around it. And if it lacks porn, it fails to hit the target.
I am not saying the game is empty (it isn't), that the author didn't work. I'm not saying she should work faster. I'm not taking into account her personal circumstances in one way or another and I won't judge them whatsoever. I'm just saying the description of the game doesn't meet the feeling it gave me in terms of actual content. And add to that the fact that it obviously does not take the path of a harem thing, which is quite unusual in porn games. Plus, redo a porn game/VN to not-see porn is a tad... What can I say ?

My guess is, here, there is a discrepancy between the pace of the story, the pace of the game itself, and the pace of its descriptive structure.
1/ The story (aka story + routes) is slow. It obviously ambitions to keep a certain level of "realism" in terms of relationships and their building, characters looking more like possible adults, than late-teenagers weird fantasy characters. Fine by me: I've had plenty of woohoo easy-to-ride sexaholic DAZ3D porn cheeks to fap-on in five, already.
2/ the game is fast. Days go fast (a little too much for my taste) with very few things you can actually do in one day, (which makes you choose early, your interests, and try to stick to them)
3/ The structure is fast too, and cut into pieces by the narrator interruptions, that breaks its flow and makes the game look even shorter. For me this is a very bad choice that amplifies the discrepancy I was talking about before putting you all to sleep in so many circumvolutary words (try to pronounce this one when English is not your natural language...)


Aside from that, it's fairly well written, it has a SciFi effect that, for once, doesn't look terribly cheap, characters have a personality and seem truly diverse if still a bit archetypal. So if it takes time to remain this way, well, I'll keep an eye on the project and go do something else between updates. Whatever.


And thank you.

 

[I'm Not Thea Lundgren!]

- I'm not fond of the 4th wall break between each chapter. One time would have been enough as an explanatory feature

You'll be pleased to hear that this part has been removed and replaced with a tutorial at the start of the game, and a stats screen you can look at when you want to.

 

[moskyx]

And the days will have more time slots for you to do more things

 

[NeimadFR]

If story is obviously a big plus, in porn games, it's porn that matters the most. Everything else revolves around it. And if it lacks porn, it fails to hit the target.

I fully disagree with you, if I wanted porn I'd just watch porn, game is the most important part of a porn game. Then again I wouldn't call H5 a porn game, it is an adult game, the porn is secondary.
In my opinion if you removed all porn elements you'd still have an interesting game, if you're into solving mysteries, and that's not the case of most games in here.