Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,109
10,344
Because when a player WANTS to go, it always a good idea to let them, with a minimum of clicks. Good UI. vs. not. Many map complaints vs. not. Being a dick vs. not. Are there steps between town and wilderness? Sure, OK, does the player want to walk them every time? No, probably not, unless there is some tasty content along the way.

Hey look, map icon! :click: hmm... nothing, must be broken.
I think you might do a better job of getting your point across by not being so confrontational about it. As it is, you're just being annoying. Also, I already told you that making the map available in the middle of town won't reduce the number of clicks needed.

"Flute" logo probably should be changed to something like a partially unrolled scroll/map
Yeah, it was the best I had available at this time. I'm not much of a 2D artist, so I have to rely on licensed material. I'll get a better map icon at some point in the future, I promise. It's a scroll case actually, but it's not like most of us have any personal experience with that kind of object to recognize it with.
 
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Darkaura

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2017
1,170
1,095
not being so confrontational
Sorry about that. It's kind of may nature. I too, am a bit of a dick. Well that's not accurate. I'm a complete asshole. But as a professional software test engineer, that attitude has served me pretty well, when dealing with crappy OS and application developers. Not that you are a crappy dev by any means. LLtP is far better than most games, code-wise. Solid. Bug-free. Content and game-play, tho' I will bitch about if it's not to my liking. On a pirate site. Where others may be willing to evaluate my criticism as useful, or crap.
 

Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,109
10,344
Sorry about that. It's kind of may nature. I too, am a bit of a dick. Well that's not accurate. I'm a complete asshole.
Well, that's okay. I apparently misjudged you if you're capable of that kind of self-reflection, so I apologize. Let me give you a more detailed explanation of why the system has to be the way it is right now:

Take the scene in which you're introduced to Erato as an example. She approaches you the first time you leave town after learning about the hunting mechanic. By that point you have already left town several times without meeting her, establishing that location without filling it with content. If I didn't force the player to manually leave town before bringing up the map, the whole Erato introduction would become much trickier and wouldn't establish a location in which the player can reliably go to visit her in the future, and I'd likely have to interrupt an action selected by the player and do something unwanted with it instead. By forcing the player to walk through a very limited number of locations, I can make sure he sees that scene before encountering any other wilderness scenes after learning of hunting, which makes things much simpler and more predictable.

A similar situation, but not related to the map, happens when you first see Samarra and Nell riding into town. Because the game forces you to visit the town itself before you can get to any other locations, I can guarantee that the player sees their scene if he leaves his house that day (or after) before he can come across any other content. That reduces the risk of creating content that happens out of order.

That's why travel will always be centered on two locations: The town location and the wilderness right outside of town. You have to enter one to get to the other, and each provides access to a separate map. It allows me some degree of control over the narrative flow in a nonlinear game.

That, and Ren'py is a bitch when it comes to dynamic actions though GUI elements. The current map button is a nasty hack, and it would be even worse if it could be used from more locations. Had I known what I know today about the limitations of Ren'py, I would probably have designed the core mechanics of LLtP slightly differently (perhaps in a style closer to a game like Summertime Saga, a game that has had its own fair share of game-breaking bugs related to its map icon), but it is what it is and I do what I can with it.
 
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Darkaura

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2017
1,170
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If I didn't force the player to manually leave town before bringing up the map, the whole Erato introduction would become much trickier and wouldn't establish a location in which the player can reliably go to visit her in the future
Then hide the map icon when not at a location where it is functionally available. Duh.

game-breaking bugs related to its map icon
I completely missed that issue, over the glaring code apocalypse that is "panty quest."

Your panty quest is FAR better implemented and functional and kinda fun.
 

Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,109
10,344
Then hide the map icon when not at a location where it is functionally available. Duh.
No, that's a big GUI faux pas, at least in a game with this kind of minimalist GUI. I learned very early on, as a software developer, that it's usually better to disable than to hide GUI elements because it makes the interface easier to navigate and get used to.

The big problem right now is that the icon is too subtle and unrecognizable. It will look like an actual map at some point, which will help a great deal. Not only will people more instinctively understand what it is, but its size and colors will mean it becomes much easier to see when it changes between enabled and disabled status.
 

Darkaura

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2017
1,170
1,095
better to disable than to hide GUI elements
Hmm. You don't suck as a dev, so I will defer to your expertise in this one instance, but as a matter of principle, I disagree showing non-clickable icons, unless there is a damn good reason.

At the very least put in a hover tag that says "You are not at a travel accessible location"

Vren took 90% of my "suggestions" to heart, in like 5 minutes with a patch. But based on his comments and looking at his code, he codes for a living, outside of Patreon. Just sayin' that when someone bitches, evaluate it as a valid concern, or not.
 

voldybuff

Member
Jun 23, 2017
342
698
The final version will have a (generous) time limit, but you don't have to worry about that right now. I will invalidate old saves before we reach that point anyway, so your current game will never risk accidentally going past the limit.
Invalidate? Does that mean we will have to start the whole game over after a point? That time may be far off but that also means a million more decisions we'll have to do over right?
 

Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,109
10,344
Invalidate? Does that mean we will have to start the whole game over after a point? That time may be far off but that also means a million more decisions we'll have to do over right?
Yeah, it does mean that, but I won't do it until it becomes absolutely necessary. I've avoided it so far by making the game events flexible. At some point I'm going to start tweaking existing stuff, fixing things that happened in the early parts of the game, adding tracking to actions you've done that I previously didn't track, and so on. Up until now (and for some time to come, hopefully) I've been able to guess at these things through the save patch system I wrote, but that doesn't mean I will be able to continue doing that indefinitely.

Pro tip: Once (and if) I do invalidate your saves, you can easily skip dialogue you've seen before by holding down the Ctrl key. Unless you've changed the behavior in the options, dialogue will stop whenever the game encounters something you haven't seen or read before, or which I've changed since the last time you saw it.
 

voldybuff

Member
Jun 23, 2017
342
698
Yeah, it does mean that, but I won't do it until it becomes absolutely necessary. I've avoided it so far by making the game events flexible. At some point I'm going to start tweaking existing stuff, fixing things that happened in the early parts of the game, adding tracking to actions you've done that I previously didn't track, and so on. Up until now (and for some time to come, hopefully) I've been able to guess at these things through the save patch system I wrote, but that doesn't mean I will be able to continue doing that indefinitely.

Pro tip: Once (and if) I do invalidate your saves, you can easily skip dialogue you've seen before by holding down the Ctrl key. Unless you've changed the behavior in the options, dialogue will stop whenever the game encounters something you haven't seen or read before, or which I've changed since the last time you saw it.
A worthy trade-off it'll be. I look forward to what you have in store
 

Clansman

Newbie
Dec 16, 2017
26
10
What do you need with Samara for the Killer Secret? As had Belle say have everything need to save Primrose. But when try to present the clues to Samara get told that she had high hopes for me.
I must be missing something?
 

Ghos[t]

Member
Jan 1, 2018
234
318
well, if i remember correctly, done it few days ago, it goes kinda like that :
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not sure if it completely right, as i said done it few days ago.
 

Clansman

Newbie
Dec 16, 2017
26
10
Cannot get Samara's Large Secret each time I try get told she had high hopes for me.
Got the three clues regarding the scales. Have I missed something?
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SlamJammin

Member
Jan 1, 2018
106
143
Explained by the story if you read what she actually says (and writes) to you.



Belle tells you almost outright what you need to do when you find them. That's about as big of a clue as you can get.



There's a tutorial that walks you through using the map to visit the Crone in the tutorial. You missed the tutorial for this because the map system was added after you started your first save.

Having said that, the current map system isn't intuitive enough. I have a couple of ideas on how to improve it.
*spoilers*My issue with the sister even with the note she gives is that she does a 180 so quickly, no real build up or work put on the player to break down her defenses to what she also truly wants. Also she says she will be gone for months or years, yet in this new update she is there telling you about primrose might get arrested? Did I miss something there? I must have missed the part where Belle said what to do next but that's why I bring up triple A titles and hand holding is that when someone does miss a clue that goes by quickly it might not be enough for the player to catch it. Maybe a big red arrow at the UI interface with the caption "The wanker SlamJammin suggests you use the map button at some time at a certain location *hint hint*" lol. Anyways, I really enjoy your game and am psyched to see where the story goes!
 

Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,109
10,344
My issue with the sister even with the note she gives is that she does a 180 so quickly, no real build up or work put on the player to break down her defenses to what she also truly wants.
You'll be able to seduce her at some point in the future. Triggering her sex scene will take more effort when we get there, but since there's no way to improve your relationship with her right now, the progression has been accelerated temporarily.

Also she says she will be gone for months or years, yet in this new update she is there telling you about primrose might get arrested? Did I miss something there?
Yeah, you missed me mentioning that it's a bug that will be fixed in 0.10.
 
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Darting run

Member
Jan 11, 2018
270
141
About the sister, I don't have problems with that she changed completely and had sex with the MC (before she leaves). It's like a bad ending you should avoid and also something to fap to while waiting for future updates.

My concern is rather: what will the MC do after he has access to his sister's pussy. More sex positions, pregnancy (like many other games) or are there even something new?
There's a game Dreaming of Dana in which the sister later helps the MC enjoy other side chicks (she's still the number one). If this game can even top that: it will be loved for sure.
 

KakashiRei

Newbie
Apr 13, 2018
24
13
My concern is rather: what will the MC do after he has access to his sister's pussy. More sex positions, pregnancy (like many other games) or are there even something new?
Maybe, it can be one of the ending that MC choice. Later on the game update, the sister will soon build relationship with MC. It will take time.
 
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