Unity Completed Love of Magic [B1 v1.6.7d + B2 v1.0.12] [Droid Productions]

[sillyrobot]

A very solid game, very enjoyable.

Two things, more quibbles than anything.

1) I missed the most of the Black Rose scenes (and a bunch of other side scenes as well) on my first playthrough. I have a third black rose, but so far as I can tell after reading the wiki (the one linked as Courseware in the game, if there are competing wikis), I can't trigger the scene. The wiki suggests completing BR II and Olivia's rescue then go to Starcucks at night.

Prerequisites: Black Rose II, Olivia's Ceremonial Magic lesson

Visit Olivia in the private library following her encounter with the denizens of Elsewhere, then go to Starcucks at night.

Done both. Go there most nights, no new scene. Perhaps there is another gate I do not know of? It's day 40 and my stats range 33-35, if relevant.

2) I was disappointed to discover I couldn't lose the fight against the sentry golem. I was *this* close to winning when the golem got an amazing board clear that should have taken me out. I was miffed to discover I couldn't fall below 1 hp. Why bother having the fight if there are no stakes?

*edited to add*

3) I ran into a scene order issue I think. Oct 11, date with Emily patching things up. Oct 13, introducing Molly to a... new role. Oct 14, talking to Molly about my discussion about the incident with Emily -- which hasn't happened yet. It worked in order on my first playthrough.

 

[Deleted member 949883]

A very solid game, very enjoyable.

Two things, more quibbles than anything.

1) I missed the most of the Black Rose scenes (and a bunch of other side scenes as well) on my first playthrough. I have a third black rose, but so far as I can tell after reading the wiki (the one linked as Courseware in the game, if there are competing wikis), I can't trigger the scene. The wiki suggests completing BR II and Olivia's rescue then go to Starcucks at night.


Done both. Go there most nights, no new scene. Perhaps there is another gate I do not know of? It's day 40 and my stats range 33-35, if relevant.

2) I was disappointed to discover I couldn't lose the fight against the sentry golem. I was *this* close to winning when the golem got an amazing board clear that should have taken me out. I was miffed to discover I couldn't fall below 1 hp. Why bother having the fight if there are no stakes?

For #1 it needs to be after day 70. See https://f95zone.to/threads/love-of-magic-v0-4-18-droid-productions.41188/post-3646120

As for #2 I feel like no consequences and there being nothing at stake is not just limited to a single fight but it is unfortunately something the entire game struggles with.

We all know that nothing is going to happen to the MC at least until the end of the story because thats how games/books work but at the same time there is still a need to provide a sense of real danger or urgency as a narrative structure and I dont think the game does a good job of doing that.

Anytime the MC is in danger he is saved because of destiny/fate - not because he/his companions did something clever or made sacrifices but because of fate. I feel like this undermines any sense of danger because the MC is fated to be magically saved regardless of what he does.

I personally enjoy the game's characters, relationship building - especially the romance with Emily which I think is very well done and the battle system - it is unique and I like the rpg/leveling up aspect of it. However it is hard to care about the overarching plot just because the game cannot convince me that there is any real threat. Thor nearly kills the MC? It was all according to plan and the MC was never in any real danger in the first place. MC being burned alive by a dragon? That's fine too he was fated to be saved and there was no real danger in the first place. I feel like the voices and the fate of things being so rigidly set in stone are the biggest obstacles for me to get invested in the plot simply because this eliminates any sense of urgency or danger in the story it makes choices made by characters almost meaningless.

But regardless I agree that it is a solid game compared to many others in this website.

 

[polycentric]

1) I missed the most of the Black Rose scenes (and a bunch of other side scenes as well) on my first playthrough. I have a third black rose, but so far as I can tell after reading the wiki (the one linked as Courseware in the game, if there are competing wikis), I can't trigger the scene. The wiki suggests completing BR II and Olivia's rescue then go to Starcucks at night.
Done both. Go there most nights, no new scene. Perhaps there is another gate I do not know of? It's day 40 and my stats range 33-35, if relevant.

There was a bug related to 'Black Rose III' that I think has been fixed in the latest beta builds, which are available in Droid's Discord if you're a Patreon.

 

[sillyrobot]

For #1 it needs to be after day 70. See https://f95zone.to/threads/love-of-magic-v0-4-18-droid-productions.41188/post-3646120

As for #2 I feel like no consequences and there being nothing at stake is not just limited to a single fight but it is unfortunately something the entire game struggles with.

We all know that nothing is going to happen to the MC at least until the end of the story because thats how games/books work but at the same time there is still a need to provide a sense of real danger or urgency as a narrative structure and I dont think the game does a good job of doing that.

Anytime the MC is in danger he is saved because of destiny/fate - not because he/his companions did something clever or made sacrifices but because of fate. I feel like this undermines any sense of danger because the MC is fated to be magically saved regardless of what he does.

I personally enjoy the game's characters, relationship building - especially the romance with Emily which I think is very well done and the battle system - it is unique and I like the rpg/leveling up aspect of it. However it is hard to care about the overarching plot just because the game cannot convince me that there is any real threat. Thor nearly kills the MC? It was all according to plan and the MC was never in any real danger in the first place. MC being burned alive by a dragon? That's fine too he was fated to be saved and there was no real danger in the first place. I feel like the voices and the fate of things being so rigidly set in stone are the biggest obstacles for me to get invested in the plot simply because this eliminates any sense of urgency or danger in the story it makes choices made by characters almost meaningless.

But regardless I agree that it is a solid game compared to many others in this website.

Re: #2, I tend to agree for most of the early stakes -- minotaur lord, Thor, etc.. I have no problem imagining that the MC falling is a "game over, world destroyed" situation. As a game device, it has fallen somewhat out of favour over the last few decades, unfortunately. Though the ultimate savior from the dragon fire is your companion being clever. "Nothing we have can save him. We can't get more resources before he'll die. However, if I marry him...".

 

[Deleted member 949883]

Re: #2, I tend to agree for most of the early stakes -- minotaur lord, Thor, etc.. I have no problem imagining that the MC falling is a "game over, world destroyed" situation. As a game device, it has fallen somewhat out of favour over the last few decades, unfortunately. Though the ultimate savior from the dragon fire is your companion being clever. "Nothing we have can save him. We can't get more resources before he'll die. However, if I marry him...".

I would normally agree however the very next conversation we had immediately after that scene undermines this. Spoilers for the next act (this is from the beta build)

Spoiler

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[pstear]

For #1 it needs to be after day 70. See https://f95zone.to/threads/love-of-magic-v0-4-18-droid-productions.41188/post-3646120

As for #2 I feel like no consequences and there being nothing at stake is not just limited to a single fight but it is unfortunately something the entire game struggles with.

We all know that nothing is going to happen to the MC at least until the end of the story because thats how games/books work but at the same time there is still a need to provide a sense of real danger or urgency as a narrative structure and I dont think the game does a good job of doing that.

Anytime the MC is in danger he is saved because of destiny/fate - not because he/his companions did something clever or made sacrifices but because of fate. I feel like this undermines any sense of danger because the MC is fated to be magically saved regardless of what he does.

I personally enjoy the game's characters, relationship building - especially the romance with Emily which I think is very well done and the battle system - it is unique and I like the rpg/leveling up aspect of it. However it is hard to care about the overarching plot just because the game cannot convince me that there is any real threat. Thor nearly kills the MC? It was all according to plan and the MC was never in any real danger in the first place. MC being burned alive by a dragon? That's fine too he was fated to be saved and there was no real danger in the first place. I feel like the voices and the fate of things being so rigidly set in stone are the biggest obstacles for me to get invested in the plot simply because this eliminates any sense of urgency or danger in the story it makes choices made by characters almost meaningless.

But regardless I agree that it is a solid game compared to many others in this website.

I agree with the fights you cannot lose bit . I lost the first time to the minotaur you run into after rescuing Katie . There could do with some mechanism so the story continues at a penalty if you lose some fights . Rescued by companions with a loss of Charisma ????? The Dragons stats are so overpowering it makes you think from the start that whatever you do will not affect the outcome .

 

[DA22]

I would normally agree however the very next conversation we had immediately after that scene undermines this. Spoilers for the next act (this is from the beta build)

Spoiler

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Ah, but you forget there was some real danger to him, if Emily had not loved him enough to save him in the Thor situation or to marry him the voices would have preferred him to die, instead of getting as powerful as he is bound to become. The real dangers to MC might be losing the love and care of those around him more as the potential enemies he faces though.

 

[Deleted member 949883]

Ah, but you forget there was some real danger to him, if Emily had not loved him enough to save him in the Thor situation or to marry him the voices would have preferred him to die, instead of getting as powerful as he is bound to become. The real dangers to MC might be losing the love and care of those around him more as the potential enemies he faces though.

That is pretty much the same as there being no real danger in the first place

And yes it can turn dangerous for the companions but the fact that the MC is untouchable because of fate ruins it for me and undermines the threat as a whole. Maybe I will feel differently if a companion or two die but I doubt it.

 

[sillyrobot]

I would normally agree however the very next conversation we had immediately after that scene undermines this. Spoilers for the next act (this is from the beta build)

Spoiler

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Which does mostly suck, yes. If things are that tightly scripted, just tell the story. A game seeks my input. If that input is just going to be discarded, perhaps the media chosen isn't the best choice.

 

[sillyrobot]

I agree with the fights you cannot lose bit . I lost the first time to the minotaur you run into after rescuing Katie . There could do with some mechanism so the story continues at a penalty if you lose some fights . Rescued by companions with a loss of Charisma ????? The Dragons stats are so overpowering it makes you think from the start that whatever you do will not affect the outcome .

Lose time. "Yes evokers heal quick. That's why you're getting out of hospital ICU in only 3 days!" That's 3 less days to adventure, gain resources, skills, or improve relationships.

I was doing "ok" against the dragon before the breath. I was resigned to a 30 minute+ fight of attrition (my design was highly defensive) and Emily *only* needs to hit the dragon a couple of hundred times to kill it with the dragon slayer. I actually expected it to retreat, new allies to arrive, or a change tactics since it would have been a far longer fight than any previous though.

 

[Droid Productions]

Some people get into the Elsewhere paths, and grok the poker game. They have no real problems with the story-based fights. Others are just in it for the story, and would likely rage-quit if the golem broke them and ended the game. So it's a challenge; I could for example have made the "impossible to die" a contingent on difficulty setting (so normal and hard actually has game over screens), but it's a question if anyone would prefer to tick the "yes, I can lose" button.

The voices see the futures, but they rely on sorceresses to nudge the preferred one into happening. There are certainly hints that the current timeline was the preferred timeline, though by no means the only possible one (the chat with the gate in the beginning of Act IV, for example, or Molly freaking out at their homework session before she becomes Chosen).

 

[Droid Productions]

1) I missed the most of the Black Rose scenes (and a bunch of other side scenes as well) on my first playthrough. I have a third black rose, but so far as I can tell after reading the wiki (the one linked as Courseware in the game, if there are competing wikis), I can't trigger the scene. The wiki suggests completing BR II and Olivia's rescue then go to Starcucks at night.


Done both. Go there most nights, no new scene. Perhaps there is another gate I do not know of? It's day 40 and my stats range 33-35, if relevant.

Day is, yeah. That dialog only triggers post day 70 (Go to Olivia, after having rescued her and having completed black rose2, and on/after day 70), and she will kick it off.

3) I ran into a scene order issue I think. Oct 11, date with Emily patching things up. Oct 13, introducing Molly to a... new role. Oct 14, talking to Molly about my discussion about the incident with Emily -- which hasn't happened yet. It worked in order on my first playthrough.

Can you remember which dialog that is? Sounds like the day gate is slightly off somewhere.

 

[Droid Productions]

I would normally agree however the very next conversation we had immediately after that scene undermines this. Spoilers for the next act (this is from the beta build)

Interesting observation. I had a look at that dialog sequence, gave it a few tweaks. Goes live in 0.4.27

 

[Deleted member 949883]

The voices see the futures, but they rely on sorceresses to nudge the preferred one into happening. There are certainly hints that the current timeline was the preferred timeline, though by no means the only possible one (the chat with the gate in the beginning of Act IV, for example, or Molly freaking out at their homework session before she becomes Chosen).

Interesting observation. I had a look at that dialog sequence, gave it a few tweaks. Goes live in 0.4.27

The first thing I want to say is that please do not change your vision about the game and the direction it goes based on what people say or think. You cannot please everyone myself included. My posts above are not intended as feedback but are my personal opinions on what I liked or did not like about the story and/or structure which is of course 100% subjective. I have similar opinions on pretty much every game/book/movie I like. The game is great and I believe it will remain great as you keep working on it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

With that out of the way I still dont get a sense of danger from the story and character choices still do not have much impact for me due to the following reasons:

1. If the voices can see the future and the outcome is always good for the MC then it begs the question - why even bother thinking for yourself when the voices can tell you exactly what to do? All you need to do is to turn off your brain and let jesus take the wheel. This undermines choices, sacrifices and free will.

2. Going back to consequences and conflict nobody has shown any intent to oppose the voices regardless of what the voices say or do. MC gets roasted? tell chloe to stop being a naughty girl and move on. Emily's father dies? who cares the voices know best. The voices are manipulating your life, the people close to you (molly/chloe) and using all of you as puppets? Whatever its natural and is no cause for concern. Instead of taking what the voices say with a grain of salt, instead of doubting the intent behind the voices and instead of resisting their will the voices are seen as objectively good even by characters that have been most affected by them which brings us back to #1. Why bother thinking for yourself when the voices tell you exactly what to do?

Now I dont mind prophecies in fiction as long as they are open ended however here this is not the case. You have an all knowing benevolent entity that can see the future pretty much telling the characters exactly what to do and what to expect. Now if the voices were malicious or if the characters were trying to stop being controlled by the voices and were perceived as a threat it would be far more interesting for me but the fact that they are seen as good, are all knowing and nobody has any reason to oppose them undermines the sense of danger or urgency from the overarching plot for me.

 

[Droid Productions]

The first thing I want to say is that please do not change your vision about the game and the direction it goes based on what people say or think.

No, it's more just something that's failing to communicate my vision, the tweaks are small.

1. If the voices can see the future and the outcome is always good for the MC then it begs the question - why even bother thinking for yourself when the voices can tell you exactly what to do? All you need to do is to turn off your brain and let jesus take the wheel. This undermines choices, sacrifices and free will.

The outcome is not always good for MC, he's probably most correct when he tells Molly that he's a tool. If breaking him gets the job done, the voices wouldn't think twice. They're also afraid of him; the voices were okay with him dying, if Emily didn't come to save him. They'd rather have him dead than without an anchor.

Now if the voices were malicious or if the characters were trying to stop being controlled by the voices and were perceived as a threat it would be far more interesting for me but the fact that they are seen as good, are all knowing and nobody has any reason to oppose them undermines the sense of danger or urgency from the overarching plot for me.

Different characters view them in different ways. Chloe's probably one of the few that actually understand what they are, and she doesn't seem too impressed. Emily dislikes them, Molly trusts them.

The original idea for the voices actually started out when Chloe described Sorcery, and it struck me how similar having Sorcery would be to being the player avatar in a game. Constantly manipulated by someone that knows more than you, sent into danger again and again, have words inserted into your mouth, frequently dying only to get dragged back to life to continue the mission. At some level, the *player* is the Voices, and our actions on him sorcery. There is of course an in-game story about their origin, but I still love that idea.

 

[Deleted member 949883]

No, it's more just something that's failing to communicate my vision, the tweaks are small.




The outcome is not always good for MC, he's probably most correct when he tells Molly that he's a tool. If breaking him gets the job done, the voices wouldn't think twice. They're also afraid of him; the voices were okay with him dying, if Emily didn't come to save him. They'd rather have him dead than without an anchor.



Different characters view them in different ways. Chloe's probably one of the few that actually understand what they are, and she doesn't seem too impressed. Emily dislikes them, Molly trusts them.

The original idea for the voices actually started out when Chloe described Sorcery, and it struck me how similar having Sorcery would be to being the player avatar in a game. Constantly manipulated by someone that knows more than you, sent into danger again and again, have words inserted into your mouth, frequently dying only to get dragged back to life to continue the mission. At some level, the *player* is the Voices, and our actions on him sorcery. There is of course an in-game story about their origin, but I still love that idea.

I like your idea and your analogy about the voices. I think what bothers me the most about this is the acceptance that the characters have towards being used like this and I think this is especially true in the case of the MC and Emily. It is quite interesting and I look forward to seeing where you take this in the future.

 

[sillyrobot]

Some people get into the Elsewhere paths, and grok the poker game. They have no real problems with the story-based fights. Others are just in it for the story, and would likely rage-quit if the golem broke them and ended the game. So it's a challenge; I could for example have made the "impossible to die" a contingent on difficulty setting (so normal and hard actually has game over screens), but it's a question if anyone would prefer to tick the "yes, I can lose" button.

The voices see the futures, but they rely on sorceresses to nudge the preferred one into happening. There are certainly hints that the current timeline was the preferred timeline, though by no means the only possible one (the chat with the gate in the beginning of Act IV, for example, or Molly freaking out at their homework session before she becomes Chosen).

It's more the presentation of the fight. It offers one thing then cheats. If the golem can't win, present it more like the combat with Thor, we don't bother going into the combat engine there because there is no point: the MC is about to lose. If I can't lose against the golem, narrate the win rather than forcing me to push some buttons.

Asking for my input implies you are going to use it, somehow. Asking for my input then disregarding it is trying to cheat your way into having more of the reader's/player's involvement without acknowledging them.

 

[pstear]

Some people get into the Elsewhere paths, and grok the poker game. They have no real problems with the story-based fights. Others are just in it for the story, and would likely rage-quit if the golem broke them and ended the game. So it's a challenge; I could for example have made the "impossible to die" a contingent on difficulty setting (so normal and hard actually has game over screens), but it's a question if anyone would prefer to tick the "yes, I can lose" button.

The voices see the futures, but they rely on sorceresses to nudge the preferred one into happening. There are certainly hints that the current timeline was the preferred timeline, though by no means the only possible one (the chat with the gate in the beginning of Act IV, for example, or Molly freaking out at their homework session before she becomes Chosen).

Its maybe more a question of balance . Making sure that there are not to many fights in the main plot that the MC cannot lose . Its a bit like introducing a new character right before they are essential for the plot , if done to often it just feels wrong .

Maybe some fights on the side quests that can be lost and redone would help , without needing to change the timeline of the main plot . Perhaps the cards can be used as a plot mechanism to escape lost fights . After the scrying on Arthurs Seat they could be used more . I would recommend anyone to read "Nine Princes In Amber" by Roger Zelazny if they have not already .

I dont know what sort of game Droid intended to make , but people seem to be playing it more for the fantasy game/story than anything else . It feels like it should be more of a light romantic game like Holiday Island rather than a lot of the far heavier games on this site .

 

[Droid Productions]

Honestly, any fight in the main timeline cannot be lost, not unless I wanted to write a second story about how two entirely unrelated characters end up saving the world. The two fights that aren't life or death (the poor sacrificial Minotaur that Katie gets to vent her anger on, and the Golem in Elsewhere) are both avoidable; the other 4 mandatory fights (Saving Emily, Hellhound@University, Lich and Dragon) are all life or death fights... there's not really a clean solution other than "Game over, would you like to load a savegame?" if you lose. As people mentioned earlier, that tends to be a design choice people aren't happy with in 2020. There's actually one in-game, I just haven't activated it.

 

[Real Kreten]

Honestly, any fight in the main timeline cannot be lost, not unless I wanted to write a second story about how two entirely unrelated characters end up saving the world. The two fights that aren't life or death (the poor sacrificial Minotaur that Katie gets to vent her anger on, and the Golem in Elsewhere) are both avoidable; the other 4 mandatory fights (Saving Emily, Hellhound@University, Lich and Dragon) are all life or death fights... there's not really a clean solution other than "Game over, would you like to load a savegame?" if you lose. As people mentioned earlier, that tends to be a design choice people aren't happy with in 2020. There's actually one in-game, I just haven't activated it.

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I don't know how it will work after the announced adjustments, but I didn't save much when playing. A sudden death with a return somewhere would certainly not improve my game.