VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Fapparition]

I want to yap a bit about the ending scene — the one where carnations are presented to Elias — because I think it was one of the most, if not the most, well-done scene in the game. Putting aside the obvious plot gears, I was genuinely stunned (in a good way) by synergy between Chuck and Kath. They’ve always kind of represented different — or at least separate — parts of the club, so seeing them speak with a single voice felt surprisingly unsettling, disturbing even.

Gil has always been great at making scenes feel alive through subtle tweaks — little changes in poses and expressions for each character at every new render. But, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t remember him using such frequent camera shifts before with all those zoom-ins and zoom-outs, those unusual yet striking angles (something you can see in SG).

The whole scene is clearly divided into two parts — the build-up and the culmination — with the BGM serving as an indicator of the transition. And I can’t praise the choice of music enough: the track for the climax fits perfectly. Once again, Neffex’s instrumental absolutely delivers.

That said, I have mixed feelings about the moment when Edwin finally removes the mask. For me, that’s the single most crucial point — where every tiny detail matters. I expected Felicia’s reaction to go through four stages:

1. Adapting – adjusting to the light and surroundings after being unable to see or hear anything.
2. Recognition – sensing something both familiar and unfamiliar (familiar to her, but alien in terms of the club).
3. Realization – understanding who’s standing before her, as fear begins to take hold.
4. Dread – the apotheosis of fear.

In the animation, the first two stages seem to blend together, the third is delivered perfectly, and the fourth… I’m not sure. I couldn’t quite put my finger on her expression. More importantly, I think the moment might have worked better if it were presented in a more traditional, static way — without animation — so that the first two stages could be conveyed more clearly.

Also, one thing confused me: when Felicia screams “Don’t touch me!”, who is touching her? The camera angle makes it impossible to tell.

 

[Discrepancy]

Also, one thing confused me: when Felicia screams “Don’t touch me!”, who is touching her? The camera angle makes it impossible to tell.

I thought it was Edwin?

 

[Fapparition]

I thought it was Edwin?

Nope, he leaves the scene before that

 

[Turret]

Hi, Turret.

I'm not trying to argue against your support of Sophia, but I have to note two things here. First, just because my main save has poor rapport with Sophia does not mean I haven't seen her high rapport scenes. I have seen them. I try to see as much of the game as possible if only to give TD and GIL the best review I can (though the game is now so complex that I'm sure I'm missing some minor combination of variables). So I have seen Sophia's other lines and her sex scene, I just don't find them any more appealing than her previous actions - other than feeling sympathy due to her apparently dealing with some sort of serious mental issues.

Which leads to my second note: avoiding an endless layer of explanations based on "unavailable information" is precisely the point of Occam's Razor. Yes, it's possible Sophia is some sort of deep cover sleeper agent whose various personality grafts are starting to conflict, but until the game presents clear evidence that any of those things exist in the game world, I think it is much easier to assume Sophia is deeply addled and leave it at that, at least until we get more information. Your mileage obviously varies, which is fine.


AFAICT, these are all the Sophia Rapport points currently available in the game:

• +1 if you push back against her initial apology
• +1 if you're distracted by her breasts when she visits in the morning
• +1 if you accept her apology before she leaves
• +1 if you say you liked her angry outburst when talking to her during the free roam in the Club
• +1 if you look at her tits rather than taking her hand off your chest
• -2 if you take her hand off her chest rather than look at her tits (to a minimum of 0)

Sophia will have an extended discussion with the MC during the orgy (thus allowing you to choose her sex scene) if you have 3 or more Rapport points. In essence that means you *need* to stare at her tits in the Club, plus pick any two of the other options listed.

Hi ename!
I do not know how many, but you also lose Sophia points if you take drugs. TD himself ninjaed me on the blue room points.

On our general Sophia discussion, reasoning variations aside, there is one other reason why I believe Sophia is NOT insane. So far, every just halfway important character in the game has been thoughtfully crafted by TD and GIL. There are more layers to e.g. Kath beyond her rampant sadism and with Chuck and her we already have two major characters with insanity ruling them. I doubt TD tries to add the mad scientist trope to that, esp. since Sophia was shown to be an eccentric genius from the start, already on another development route than insanity.

 

[Ummmh]

Nope, he leaves the scene before that

not in my playthru.

It's timed to be directly after Edwin makes the choice to comfort her or not. I suspect it was envisioned as being specifically linked to his choosing to comfort her (so not happening, otherwise), but was erroneously left as a static step in the convo, devoid of context.

 

[Khan merry]

Guys does warning Felicia about her favorite artist in the hana concert and her husband appearance before the stage change anything? i didn't do it

 

[Ummmh]

I think it is much easier to assume Sophia is deeply addled and leave it at that, at least until we get more information.

IMO... Either:
1) she's been hitting her own stash (inadvisable: science requires isolation between observer/observed in experiments; you are supposed to avoid using yourself as a test subject, as it can bias results, ESPECIALLY in cases involving psychotropic drugs);
2) she's just really nuts (unlikely, unless it is a late-onset condition, given she maintained sufficient stability to achieve PHD accreditation);
or...
3) the old man is strategically (and possibly secretly) dosing her, and using her when she is chemically under suggestion (IMO most likely, given her surprise at being told abt her DiD-like behavior).

 

[Turret]

Guys does warning Felicia about her favorite artist in the hana concert and her husband appearance before the stage change anything? i didn't do it

Hi!
Problem here is that to gain knowledge of the painting you loose at least 2 chances to raise Feli´s selfconfidence. If you get out of the exhibition/datenight with Felicia having 6-7 SP, you do not have a chance to learn about the painting. If you investigate enough to learn about the painting to warn Feli at the concert, she will end the evening with around 4 SP.
Unless there is a very specific track how to do the art exhibition, you have to decide either to raise Feli´s selfconfidence or learn and warn her about the painting at the concert.
So far I did not see clear changes at the reveal if I do warn her at the concert and the evening.

 

[Turret]

IMO... Either:
1) she's been hitting her own stash (inadvisable: science requires isolation between observer/observed in experiments; you are supposed to avoid using yourself as a test subject, as it can bias results, ESPECIALLY in cases involving psychotropic drugs);

Hi!
Very unlikely, Sophia is very much an observer when her invention is given out. That is esp. clear during the blue room sit-in with Kath and Sophia. Kath is influenced by the sex drug to an exted (suddenly starting to give Edwin a handjob), Sophia is not. Her participation in the early gangbang was probably "wild Sophia" making an appearance.

2) she's just really nuts (unlikely, unless it is a late-onset condition, given she maintained sufficient stability to achieve PHD accreditation);

Agree that she is not nuts. She was always eccentric, but as you say, she is stable enough to have become a doctor and lead researcher at a major firm.

3) the old man is strategically (and possibly secretly) dosing her, and using her when she is chemically under suggestion (IMO most likely, given her surprise at being told abt her DiD-like behavior).

A possibility, but unlikely in my opinion. Sophia came to apologise on her own, so to keep this under warps (they are in the club which is under observation, if in a private location she would not have reacted like this) she played up a conflict between her core personality and the imprints and crafts she probably has.

 

[Fapparition]

not in my playthru.

It's timed to be directly after Edwin makes the choice to comfort her or not. I suspect it was envisioned as being specifically linked to his choosing to comfort her (so not happening, otherwise), but was erroneously left as a static step in the convo, devoid of context.

I think I got what you mean.
So this render

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should be between these two

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but got misplaced

 

[Ummmh]

Probably, yah.

It makes no sense, otherwise.

Big game: hard to 100% track all paths at release.

 

[Ummmh]

A possibility, but unlikely in my opinion. Sophia came to apologise on her own, so to keep this under warps (they are in the club which is under observation, if in a private location she would not have reacted like this) she played up a conflict between her core personality and the imprints and crafts she probably has.

She came to apologize at the (supposedly debugged) apartment, too, and acted all weird, including saying that her actions WERE her boss's actions;
she may have meant they were just in sync, but she came there SUPPOSEDLY privately to apologize, and (YMMV) I got the distinct impression (from combo of factors in both the dialogue and art) that her discussing the old man was affected by conditioning... Something is off.

But we will likely see.

My biggest problem is I REALLY want to use the Allison fvck as "canon" in my playthru, but Soph clearly should take precedent, It WAS a good bang, and her brand of crazy is hot on top of her already being hot, in general.

 

[Turret]

My biggest problem is I REALLY want to use the Allison fvck as "canon" in my playthru, but Soph clearly should take precedent, It WAS a good bang, and her brand of crazy is hot on top of her already being hot, in general.

Hi!
I see your problem and I know TD and GIL made it like this to get us thinking about our decision. Do we abstain totally, going the "Paragon" route, opposing all of this debauchery and abuse? Do we let ourselves be seduced by the opportunity to get together with a hot, but characterly rotten, movie star, throwing in with the Club, locking step with the depravity and abuse done there? Or do we take the third route, the bright light with black schlieren all over it, the grey path? Opposing the club as it is now, but not PC in itself, enjoying life a bit too, but not as abusive as the Club currently does?

 

[FRVN]

Guys does warning Felicia about her favorite artist in the hana concert and her husband appearance before the stage change anything? i didn't do it

In terms of Elias (I didn't warn her about the art), not much, maybe in the next update it will have a bigger impact. If you warn her, there is an added line from Felicia of "so that's what you meant..." or something along those lines, because Edwin does not explicitly tell her what is going on. But other than that, the scene plays out the same.

 

[Ummmh]

Hi!
I see your problem and I know TD and GIL made it like this to get us thinking about our decision. Do we abstain totally, going the "Paragon" route, opposing all of this debauchery and abuse? Do we let ourselves be seduced by the opportunity to get together with a hot, but characterly rotten, movie star, throwing in with the Club, locking step with the depravity and abuse done there? Or do we take the third route, the bright light with black schlieren all over it, the grey path? Opposing the club as it is now, but not PC in itself, enjoying life a bit too, but not as abusive as the Club currently does?

IMO, Alli isn't herself "rotten", just very, very focused on winning in a rotten **situation**, especially because...

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So she's really a victim, despite being able to activate determined bitch mode. She's both literally and figuratively fucked.

 

[Turret]

IMO, Alli isn't herself "rotten", just very, very focused on winning in a rotten **situation**, especially because...

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So she's really a victim, despite being able to activate determined bitch mode. She's both literally and figuratively fucked.

While that is not wrong, it does not tell the whole story. During free roam you can also get info about Allison which shows that she is a consumate liar and no trick too dirty to get what she wants. She simply had the bad luck to get into a competition with people organising it who are worse than she is. As for back on call, yes, but I doubt it is done much with her. I think it be the first time it actually happens and that is because Kath wants to destroy the relations of Elias, Felicia, Edwin and Hana with her help.

 

[sunaboz]

IMO, Alli isn't herself "rotten", just very, very focused on winning in a rotten **situation**, especially because...

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So she's really a victim, despite being able to activate determined bitch mode. She's both literally and figuratively fucked.

I wouldn't say she's a victim, she knew what she was signing for. We can see she's not stupid so she must have known that the reward (which again was only a possibility and not a sure thing) would come with strings attached. For some reason she felt that it was worth the risk, probably because her breakthrough role couldn't come quick enough and also because it was "just sex" to her.

The question we should be asking is whether she's being paid for that night or are they just blackmailing her. I'm guessing they are compensating her for her time generously, otherwise she might be getting ideas that would require some more extreme measures (killing a high profile target like her could bring too much heat, same goes for beating her to a pulp) and judging by the suitcase full of money that Elias will get, money is something they have abundance of.

Turret
I don't think it's the first time.

Kathleen: "Are you sure you don't want me to find you a girl? I could call up Alison if you like. I know she was your favorite last year."
Jim: "She's still on the hook, eh? You're scarier than your husband."

It was a conversation during freeroam just before 2nd exhibition. I'm not sure how their arrangement works, I doubt that Allison would be available whenever Kat would call her but I'm guessing that she might have once per month obligatory carnation job.

The thing with Allison is though, the more she will become famous the less likely they will use her services again. At some point paparazzi will follow her and that might expose the club, it's just not worth the risk. I also wonder how would they even threaten Allison because leaking those tapes could possibly expose the club and make some journalists investigate it further. I'm guessing that for Allison calling their bluff (or "bluff") would pose too much risk and she would rather just have sex with Elias/Jim/whoever else than face potential consequences.

And judging by her jumping Edwin's bones she likes sex and is damn good at it so it's not like she's suffering here.

In the end it's just a porn game so TD might not have thought about details like this so if all else fails we can always blame it on porn logic.

 

[ename144]

Hi ename!
I do not know how many, but you also lose Sophia points if you take drugs. TD himself ninjaed me on the blue room points.

Ah, good point, I forgot about the -2 point hit from snorting coke off Sophia's rival for the evening; I almost never do that. I didn't know points were added to account for the earlier scene with Kat and Sophia, though it makes sense.

On our general Sophia discussion, reasoning variations aside, there is one other reason why I believe Sophia is NOT insane. So far, every just halfway important character in the game has been thoughtfully crafted by TD and GIL. There are more layers to e.g. Kath beyond her rampant sadism and with Chuck and her we already have two major characters with insanity ruling them. I doubt TD tries to add the mad scientist trope to that, esp. since Sophia was shown to be an eccentric genius from the start, already on another development route than insanity.

I see it differently: Sophia's mental issues - whatever their source - form one of those thoughtfully crafted layers you mention. Figuring out what is going on with her and (hopefully) doing something to fix it out is going to be her arc. Some flavor of insanity (be it brainwashing, psychotic breaks or chronic sleep deprivation) wouldn't make her a pointless character. Quite the opposite, actually. But she cannot continue indefinitely in the incoherent state she's currently in, and I certainly won't trust anything she says until I have a better handle on what makes her say such contradictory things.

IMHO, of course.

 

[sunaboz]

It's out for all:

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[Zakharova]

Holy shit! Even by my standards of debauchery, promiscuity, moral depravity, vicious immorality, sadism, religious masochism, and erotic perversity, you threatening the woman who practically raised your kid... and then using her past as a porn actress to blackmail her...? That’s low as fuck! I’m ready to sell MC’s soul to the devil (in this case, Kath) for him to get revenge on that smoking hot redheaded MILF (aka Ian’s mom) with psychological cruelty so intense it’s worthy of a Japanese thriller directed by Sion Sono!

It's wild how Pale Carnations stirs up the darkest, most twisted urges in the player, yet still hits you with a gut-punch of raw, righteous moral fury.