Keep the existing jobs or have the PC become a fulltime detective in week 2?


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WendyTheRed

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May 30, 2017
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I thought I'd posted more recently but it makes sense I didn't. My mother died on October 14th, mere days after my last post here. It did push the release of the update back by probably 10+ days but after losing months to her declining health I suppose it's a drop on the bucket.

Anyway, on to better topics:

The update should be hitting my Patreon this Friday. It'll go public 3 weeks after that. I'm sorry it took so long but my mother's declining health and eventual death added months onto the development of the update as I was busy helping her and, frankly, depressed at times. But I'm moving on and oddly the last week and a half have been super productive for the game.
 
May 20, 2022
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I thought I'd posted more recently but it makes sense I didn't. My mother died on October 14th, mere days after my last post here. It did push the release of the update back by probably 10+ days but after losing months to her declining health I suppose it's a drop on the bucket.

Anyway, on to better topics:

The update should be hitting my Patreon this Friday. It'll go public 3 weeks after that. I'm sorry it took so long but my mother's declining health and eventual death added months onto the development of the update as I was busy helping her and, frankly, depressed at times. But I'm moving on and oddly the last week and a half have been super productive for the game.
you have absolutely nothing to apologize for. what you have been going through is devastating and trying even for the hardiest of souls. my deepest condolences for your loss and I personally am happy you feel better enough to now go forward with your endeavors. may you continue to grow stronger and keep up the great work
 

Orphanus

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Oct 25, 2019
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I thought I'd posted more recently but it makes sense I didn't. My mother died on October 14th, mere days after my last post here. It did push the release of the update back by probably 10+ days but after losing months to her declining health I suppose it's a drop on the bucket.

Anyway, on to better topics:

The update should be hitting my Patreon this Friday. It'll go public 3 weeks after that. I'm sorry it took so long but my mother's declining health and eventual death added months onto the development of the update as I was busy helping her and, frankly, depressed at times. But I'm moving on and oddly the last week and a half have been super productive for the game.
I'd rather you not even apologized to begin with, since it's as the person above me said & you don't have anything to apologize for. I don't think there is many people who, from the bottom of their heart, would disagree that the ordeal you went through is more than enough reason to not focus on delivering regular updates to a game you offer for free to begin with. It's just really fortunate you decided to continue working on it and I sincerely hope SoSF will be a welcome distraction for yourself.
Also, of course, my condolences for your loss, not there yet, thank god, but my parents have reached the age where I start to worry a bit, so I can at least vaguely imagine what you went through, although it's of course not the same either way.
Take care and don't feel pressured to drop an update any time soon, if in doubt, if you do that's wonderful of course, but so is an update any other time this year or start of the next. :giggle:
 
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WendyTheRed

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Thank you everyone. In other news, I recently put up 4 polls on my Patreon asking people's input on the sequel I will make for this game when this one is done. It'll be an all new main character and a new situation but there will be returning characters. 3 of the 4 polls are public so feel free to vote if you'd like some input:

- So far Ren'py is by far the most popular choice of engine for the sequel. It's the one I wanted to try so that works out!

- So far, 1st person has a narrow lead over 2nd person. This one surprised me as I thought 3rd person would have a stronger showing.

- Another surprise. About 2/3rds of people have said they'd prefer the game be exclusively female protagonist with no option for a TG start. It surprised me because one of the first places I posted the game was on TFgamesites so I thought there was more of a TG following for the game. That said, I think the female protagonist start is probably better in the current game and the TG side is not as good as a game that focuses on TG stuff would be.

The fourth poll is about fetishes people want to see and is for Patrons only. This is both to give them some unique input and also because I got paranoid about Patron seeing even adult words outside of the paywall. This one had a couple of surprises as well. The top votes in rough order of most to least:

Mnd Control
BDSM
Humiliation
Public Sex
Pregnancy
Exhibitionism
Groping
Public Sex
Blackmail/Coercion
Prostitution
And rounding out the top votes. Lactation.
 

Orphanus

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Oct 25, 2019
1,072
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Thank you everyone. In other news, I recently put up 4 polls on my Patreon asking people's input on the sequel I will make for this game when this one is done. It'll be an all new main character and a new situation but there will be returning characters. 3 of the 4 polls are public so feel free to vote if you'd like some input:

- So far Ren'py is by far the most popular choice of engine for the sequel. It's the one I wanted to try so that works out!

- So far, 1st person has a narrow lead over 2nd person. This one surprised me as I thought 3rd person would have a stronger showing.

- Another surprise. About 2/3rds of people have said they'd prefer the game be exclusively female protagonist with no option for a TG start. It surprised me because one of the first places I posted the game was on TFgamesites so I thought there was more of a TG following for the game. That said, I think the female protagonist start is probably better in the current game and the TG side is not as good as a game that focuses on TG stuff would be.

The fourth poll is about fetishes people want to see and is for Patrons only. This is both to give them some unique input and also because I got paranoid about Patron seeing even adult words outside of the paywall. This one had a couple of surprises as well. The top votes in rough order of most to least:

Mnd Control
BDSM
Humiliation
Public Sex
Pregnancy
Exhibitionism
Groping
Public Sex
Blackmail/Coercion
Prostitution
And rounding out the top votes. Lactation.
Don't hit me but I must ask this first, will it again be possible to play the protagonist as a lesbian? (Not sure if that is the intention with SoSF but even if not you do a great job at it feeling like the protag is whoever we wanna play as)
 
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WendyTheRed

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Don't hit me but I must ask this first, will it again be possible to play the protagonist as a lesbian? (Not sure if that is the intention with SoSF but even if not you do a great job at it feeling like the protag is whoever we wanna play as)
Yes. I'm planning to give the option to play as straight, bi or lesbian simply based on which relationships you choose to pursue. I didn't put lesbian as a "fetish" in the Patron only poll because I figured it was a given. The only thing that might make it harder on lesbians is if they encounter a blackmail situation from a male. They'd probably say no for obvious reasons which could complicate their lives if the blackmailer follows through with their threats.

Speaking of, this particular update only has one lesbian encounter in it, that being Izabela if you invited her into your house. Because the update is focused on investigating suspects there wasn't really a good point for me to throw in encounters with Amber, Anya or Jill. Poor Jill, I keep neglecting her...
 
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Orphanus

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Oct 25, 2019
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Yes. I'm planning to give the option to play as straight, bi or lesbian simply based on which relationships you choose to pursue. I didn't put lesbian as a "fetish" in the Patron only poll because I figured it was a given. The only thing that might make it harder on lesbians is if they encounter a blackmail situation from a male. They'd probably say no for obvious reasons which could complicate their lives if the blackmailer follows through with their threats.

Speaking of, this particular update only has one lesbian encounter in it, that being Izabela if you invited her into your house. Because the update is focused on investigating suspects there wasn't really a good point for me to throw in encounters with Amber, Anya or Jill. Poor Jill, I keep neglecting her...
That is awesome! The blackmail situation is a reasonable concern, but of course you could always add options to at least fight back properly or maybe even to turn the tables and deal with people threatening the protagonist in equally dark ways, which ofc would have to fit. If it doesn't then don't do it, obviously, and as always write the stories you wanna write. As long as there is an option to say no that's perfectly fine, dealing with the consequences is something the player should be able to decide to do, in my opinion. It's far less frustrating than being railroaded into things. :D

Since Izabela is in fact so much up my alley that I haven't yet managed to refuse her advances/the possibility of actually romancing her (which I still am optimistic about as of yet, I think I wrote before how I get the impression Izabela does actually like our protag in her own way & might grow to like the protagonist a lot, depending on future choices) so I'm very happy hearing that. :LOL:

I would agree though that the other 3 bachelorettes deserve some too, and they all are compelling in their own rights, one day I'll successfully go down their individual routes as well, probably. :ROFLMAO:
 

WendyTheRed

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Game Developer
May 30, 2017
410
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Since Izabela is in fact so much up my alley that I haven't yet managed to refuse her advances/the possibility of actually romancing her (which I still am optimistic about as of yet, I think I wrote before how I get the impression Izabela does actually like our protag in her own way & might grow to like the protagonist a lot, depending on future choices) so I'm very happy hearing that. :LOL:

I would agree though that the other 3 bachelorettes deserve some too, and they all are compelling in their own rights, one day I'll successfully go down their individual routes as well, probably. :ROFLMAO:
Izabela is fun to write for. I think she comes across as more unstable and dangerous than Nicholai does which makes sense if you think about what you've learned about her.

I will try to give the other girls some stuff to do in the next update which will finally represent a return to the jobs. Speaking of lesbians and jobs, I didn't realize until late in the game dev cycle that other than Riley when being a maid none of the jobs really give much for lesbian players to do. And Riley appeals to a very specific playstyle. :) It was an oversight and in the sequel I'll try not to make that mistake again.
 
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Orphanus

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Izabela is fun to write for. I think she comes across as more unstable and dangerous than Nicholai does which makes sense if you think about what you've learned about her.

I will try to give the other girls some stuff to do in the next update which will finally represent a return to the jobs. Speaking of lesbians and jobs, I didn't realize until late in the game dev cycle that other than Riley when being a maid none of the jobs really give much for lesbian players to do. And Riley appeals to a very specific playstyle. :) It was an oversight and in the sequel I'll try not to make that mistake again.
I like hearing that, it's true that the maid job kinda feels like the only one that makes sense to pick, and since it sounded as if Riley doesn't do anything if the player doesn't agree to it I would assume it isn't a bother even if one doesn't like her lewd content, but without the naughty stuff it's not as interesting and her particular type of content isn't exactly to everyone's tastes I would assume.

Me likes, though I will say I feel a bit bad for siding with the vampires every time, given I like Riley and also I do like the boss, he seems as if he truly cares about the town :LOL:

Having a bit more variety to choose from in the sequel would certainly be much appreciated!
 

WendyTheRed

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May 30, 2017
410
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Me likes, though I will say I feel a bit bad for siding with the vampires every time, given I like Riley and also I do like the boss, he seems as if he truly cares about the town :LOL:

Having a bit more variety to choose from in the sequel would certainly be much appreciated!
Depending on your choices in this update you may get more insight into the vampires, particularly Nicholai.

As for variety in the sequel in things like jobs, one of the big question marks for me is whether to make it a branching narrative style game, something similar to say "Good Girl Gone Bad" if you played that or make it more sandboxy. I think sandboxes are neat but I discovered early on that they're a Hell of a lot of work and can easily feel kind of shallow and empty if you're not careful. Thankfully I still have months before this game ends so don't need to decide yet.

I'm currently leaning towards perhaps a hybrid. Like having set events each day paired with some choices for the rest of the day similar to the last few updates for this game. We'll see what I settle on. I do like the idea of players being able to poke around and find content that clicks with them rather than relying on a singular narrative. That said, a lot of the feedback I get boils down to how much people enjoy the story and if I go with more of a branching narrative then I'll be able to make a tighter story I think.
 
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Orphanus

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Depending on your choices in this update you may get more insight into the vampires, particularly Nicholai.

As for variety in the sequel in things like jobs, one of the big question marks for me is whether to make it a branching narrative style game, something similar to say "Good Girl Gone Bad" if you played that or make it more sandboxy. I think sandboxes are neat but I discovered early on that they're a Hell of a lot of work and can easily feel kind of shallow and empty if you're not careful. Thankfully I still have months before this game ends so don't need to decide yet.

I'm currently leaning towards perhaps a hybrid. Like having set events each day paired with some choices for the rest of the day similar to the last few updates for this game. We'll see what I settle on. I do like the idea of players being able to poke around and find content that clicks with them rather than relying on a singular narrative. That said, a lot of the feedback I get boils down to how much people enjoy the story and if I go with more of a branching narrative then I'll be able to make a tighter story I think.
I can understand your train of thoughts, it sums up how I feel about sandbox as a player, it can be really cool, but to make it feel alive it requires a lot of work, and then there is still the issue of things getting repetitive since there are only so many variations to one and the same event you can write, given that there are a lot of different events to begin with in that scenario. At the same time it does have it's appeal to have some sandbox elements and more of a general routine to follow & then discover content than just a strictly linear chain of events.

I did try Good Girl Gone Bad but never really warmed up to it, a result of me personally not liking most of the characters and the romance also kinda fell completely flat (subjectively), but that's not because the game is badly made or written by any means so I wouldn't say making a game similarly structured would be a bad choice at all.

The idea of a bit of a combination of aspects from both sounds most appealing but either of the 3 could work splendidly, so I'd agree leaning towards that but keeping an open mind until you really have to make the decision is a solid approach. :)
 
May 20, 2022
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personally I love mind control, as well as corruption, how the corruption happens whether it be blackmail or Coercion or even through the mind control i love. for instance i have always loved it when a vampire quite literally gets their victim to utterly submit to their desires
 

WendyTheRed

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May 30, 2017
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personally I love mind control, as well as corruption, how the corruption happens whether it be blackmail or Coercion or even through the mind control i love. for instance i have always loved it when a vampire quite literally gets their victim to utterly submit to their desires
I think I forgot to put corruption into the poll though to be honest, it's a given so there wasn't much point. I actually quite like mind control games myself though they can be tricky as to have true mind control you really need to put in some bad ends once it reaches 100% I think.
 
May 20, 2022
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I think I forgot to put corruption into the poll though to be honest, it's a given so there wasn't much point. I actually quite like mind control games myself though they can be tricky as to have true mind control you really need to put in some bad ends once it reaches 100% I think.
well they don't necessarily have to be bad ends lol, they could be good ends depending on how one looks at it lmao
 

WendyTheRed

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well they don't necessarily have to be bad ends lol, they could be good ends depending on how one looks at it lmao
Well technically bad ends. ;) The current game has Mind Control of both the subtle kind and the more overt kind with the doctor and priest. The entire game has very subtle implications that the whole town is more or less under corrupting mind control. Or maybe not subtle I suppose depending on how you view it.
 
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Kagarus

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Sandboxes can be interesting, but come with significant development costs, yeah.
One way I look at it is asking what being a Sandbox adds to a game. To give two examples where the Sandbox adds a lot:
  • Unholy Arts: The game is a sandbox in which the player character trains, fights and socializes with NPCs who act under similar rules on a map. It is highly system driven, with mechanics for combat, dialogue, sex, stat-raising, and the sandbox is the core of the game - the characters have drives and relationship values which determine both their actions in the sandbox as well as influence some decisions during the special events, and which are influence by actions in the sandbox and decisions in events. The development and maintenance of those systems take a lot of work, and its been mentioned repeatedly that its up against the limitations of what Twine/Browsers can do.
  • Stellar Crossroads: The player is in charge of an independent space station, with systems for mining, refining, manufacturing and trade, with some politics/diplomacy coming. Unlike UA, it is a VN first, with the economic simulation serving to further atmosphere/making the player identify more with the role of the protagonist - there's a big difference between telling a player just "your job is x" and making the player do x (although that can also be detrimental, if not implemented well or they just come across as gimmicky minigames added to have minigames).

I won't name names for the other end, the games for which the Sandbox adds in my opinion nothing at all, but everyone who's played a lot of games here is probably familiar with them: It's a VN, and between scenes you get thrown into one of a number of interconnected rooms. To get to the next scene, you have to navigate to the right room and click on something - maybe to get to the next big scene you need to do that several times to check off a number of sub-scenes, but that's it. You may (rarely) make the decision between two scenes by deciding on whom to click, and there might be optional content you can also see (whether just another scene or an optional route). Often there's no passage of time except by clicking on the next main scene, or the passage of time is purely cosmetic (Morning/Noon/Evening/Night, endlessly repeating, to make the next scene clickable sleep until Evening).
I can't see any benefit from being a sandbox beyond being able to say "it's not a pure VN", which in my eyes at least adds absolutely nothing.

In SOSF, the benefits are in my opinion two-fold:
  1. It helps identify the player with the role of a detective: You investigate that trail and find an interesting clue with the grave, you go shopping and pick up on some peculiarities, you meet the informant and get information (or don't) etc. This places the player in a more actively investigating role, instead of just being along for the ride selecting between menu options.
  2. Because of the progress of time and the plot happening as the days progress, how you spend your free time matters, and a simulationist/sandbox approach centers that more than just choice.

Whether those benefits are worth the extra work (and opportunity costs) *shrug*

(Regarding users, I don't think we know anything definite - there are players that prefer sandboxes, ones that prefer pure VNs, people who've been burnt by too many of the "adds nothing" "Sandboxes" and assume games with them are just that, and even with the examples of good sandboxes in my opinion there are people that specifically dislike those... how large those groups are though...)

Anyway, regardless whether it'll be a Sandbox or not, looking forward to the next game!
 
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WendyTheRed

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(Regarding users, I don't think we know anything definite - there are players that prefer sandboxes, ones that prefer pure VNs, people who've been burnt by too many of the "adds nothing" "Sandboxes" and assume games with them are just that, and even with the examples of good sandboxes in my opinion there are people that specifically dislike those... how large those groups are though...)

Anyway, regardless whether it'll be a Sandbox or not, looking forward to the next game!
The next game will be different in feel. It will also have a mystery though it'll be more personal and I think in this one I'd like to add mini-mysteries too. Sort of like...hmmm...say in Buffy where she fought a different monster each week but each season there was a big bad. Something like that. So it'll have an episodic feel with an overarching narrative.

The problem I see with a lot of sandboxes and I think it's what you are referring to and what burns people is that a lot of them resort to repeating events. IE "go to this place, click on NPC, have sex with them and it's the same exact scene as next time. Add +1 to corruption." I suspect devs do it so they have content to fill the sandbox that doesn't take a lot of work. I told myself in my game I wouldn't have very many, if any, repeating scenes because I wanted my game to feel immersive. A side effect is that a lot of places in the game you go to and see something like "so-and-so isn't here right now." because I haven't added new content for them.
 

Kagarus

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Sep 28, 2017
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The next game will be different in feel. It will also have a mystery though it'll be more personal and I think in this one I'd like to add mini-mysteries too. Sort of like...hmmm...say in Buffy where she fought a different monster each week but each season there was a big bad. Something like that. So it'll have an episodic feel with an overarching narrative.

The problem I see with a lot of sandboxes and I think it's what you are referring to and what burns people is that a lot of them resort to repeating events. IE "go to this place, click on NPC, have sex with them and it's the same exact scene as next time. Add +1 to corruption." I suspect devs do it so they have content to fill the sandbox that doesn't take a lot of work. I told myself in my game I wouldn't have very many, if any, repeating scenes because I wanted my game to feel immersive. A side effect is that a lot of places in the game you go to and see something like "so-and-so isn't here right now." because I haven't added new content for them.

That design for the next game sounds pretty interesting!


Repeating events are IMHO an attempt to step away from worst cases I mentioned, in which the Sandbox adds nothing, but arguably make the game overall worse because of bad game design.
Events/things in a game can be fun intrinsically (for example reading a new scene, or shooting an enemy in an FPS), or fun because of what they mean in context - for example, clicking on an enemy to shoot them in an XCOM-like isn't peak fun, but you enjoy it because you have an idea - A PLAN - flank there, eliminate that one, great... oh, that wasn't supposed to happen, but I could counter by... great! - making those decisions and seeing how/if they accomplish your goals is what's satisfying, as is seeing progress towards your meta-goal. Both of those examples are skill/mastery, but obviously they don't need to be either - placing blocks in a Minecraft-like to build some large project you imagined is another example of "context-fun". And obviously, the fun of most things in games is a composite of both, and what is fun is highly subjective - your very intrinsically fun thing might be boring or frustrating for me, and the context that makes another thing fun for me might be pointless to you.
But as subjective as it is, I'm pretty certain that the amount of people for who viewing the same erotic scene over and over because you have to to raise a stat to advance a plotline, with no real decisionmaking except "I want x, therefor I got to click this 15 more times", is either kind of fun is extremely small.

So events in a sandbox should be either be fun intrinsically (as in, be interesting/fun each time you do them, for example, as a minigame; or just by avoid repeat events, like you do) or fun because they serve a fun goal of the players - which usually means that event the is the result of some decision making process - either frequent and fun (XCOM for example), or long-term and deeply personal (Minecraft), and because it's hard to do "build whatever you want to build" fantasy fulfillment in an eroge sandbox, that usually means that there should be many decisions regarding what events to do, with mutilple good decisions depending on what your goal is as a player. (Ideally, they should be fun in the moment, be the result of an decision between multiple interesting options, and in service of a long-term self-set goal, but that's hard to accomplish.)
UA is a good example - first off, combat, sex and dialogues are minigames, not static text, and thus can be fun even on repeat. They're also influenced by the stats of the characters in the metagame, deeply connecting how the minigames work with metagame. Trainings are just short 1-page passages awarding experiences, but like the previous events, they result in experience changing the stats of the characters. And there's limited time and competition by the NPCs, which makes decisions of what stats to increase an interesting decision. Then there's a potential meta-game, akin to Minecrafts "what do you want to build" - NPCs act according to a logic that takes into account their relationships and drives, so you can set yourself an overarching goal (like "everyone gets along with everyone", or "I want everyone to serve me"), the fulfillment of which you can then strategize for.
The problem with all of this is of course that it is much easier said than done. A minigame that is fun x times can become just tedious if it needs to be done 2x times; what you think is motivating context might not be for others, and the x might vastly differ between persons - I chose both UA and SC as positive examples: In both cases, there are some people who feel that the elements are annoying or tedious - the art is to find something that feels right, to an at least large enough audience and yourself.
An art which also requires iteration and experience in an additional skillset to the usual skillsets of writing and rendering, game mechanics design.
Recognizing when a certain mechanic works or not is hard, and finding the correct touches to make it work is even harder - there's a number of cases where the fix to "too slow" was moving the camera down a bit and some optical effects.
(And I don't mean to say that game mechanics is harder than rendering emotional/attractive scenes or writing interesting characters/scenes - those are also damn hard. It's just another, separate set of skills, which shouldn't be taken for granted, same as writing shouldn't be taken for granted (*cough* Bioware Management *cough*))

...I'm honestly not sure if my rambling is of *any* use, but I guess there's no harm in publishing it. :ROFLMAO: :FacePalm:
 
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