VN Ren'Py Completed SWe1: The Warrior's Heart [v1.0] [Mortze]

4.60 star(s) 129 Votes

Mortze

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Aug 27, 2017
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I've known about your work for at least a year and I've tried it multiple times. Elsaverse and Life changes for Keeley. I've actually given you a lot more thought and attention than I otherwise would have, just because of how good Mortze's solo work is.

The latest entry shows clear as day that you still have not even thought to learn anything at all about how to use visual storytelling. If you're clueless now, is it reasonable to expect you to have understood it before? So yea you might say I'm extrapolating. You're still stuck trying to do novels with pictures, not using the tools available to you. And stacking exposition text on top of exposition images. Trying to make me play/read everything else you've done is not going to convert me. If you want to convert me you'll have to show me that you understand what visual storytelling is all about.

You really should take some time to learn how using visual storytelling is different from text-only storytelling. That would be a wayyy better use of your time than trying to start internet fights with a cartoon bear.

Maybe try googling it one day. Here's (Google's top search result)
I don't see how much better my SW game is to the games Tlaero writes. In fact, her experience as a writer, and being an English speaker show a huge gap (for better) in terms of writing flow, grammar, intonation, and prose even. The only difference I see between the games she writes and The Warrior's Hearth (if I'm following you correctly) is that in SWtWH I don't tell the story from the MC's perspective only. The story shifts to other characters perspectives (mainly the Imperial side) and that allows me to tell the whole story, much like the movies. In the Elsaverse and Keeley's games we follow another style of storytelling, the POV style where you see the events happening from the perspective of the character you're playing or following. In SW despite following the MC you follow other events. that's not a matter of good or bad storytelling; it's a matter of choice of perspective that you want the players to follow. I chose to incorporate both perspectives because the game would be much less interesting without the Imperial side as any SW movie shows.
It's an artistic, or directing choice, not proof of skill - in that department I'm way behind Tlaero.

There's also another important factor to take into account.
Tlaero writes the script first, the dialogues, the descriptions, and since it's text only she naturally, and masterfully, injects as much information as required to pass the necessary information to the reader. Then I make the pictures to match the descriptions and dialogues. Yeah, that may result in some redundancy where the text explains what the picture shows but better be safer than sorry; many players may not be as perceptive to notice what the picture fully entails and might appreciate the text enforcing the information, others may not understand English so well and appreciate a good picture to understand the message better. The risk of redundancy finds many benefits and we are happy with it.
When I made SW, or Pandora I always make the pictures first and then add the text only after resulting in me analyzing if the picture is good enough to pass the message or if I need to add text and description. The flaw in this is that it's up to my subjective analysis if the message passes or not and some people might not get the message because the picture isn't clear enough and I didn't compensate with the text.

I appreciate you praising that I did good with SW The Warrior's Heart, I really do. I'm happy with the game.
But I don't agree when you say that I tell better stories than Tlaero. At all.
 

Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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Tlaero may I present my case to you ? :) Would you consider nudging and pushing Mortze in the direction of Pandora 2, along with all the necessary magic you bring ? A man sure can dream...
I think what would really help is telling us what you really liked about Pandora. Whether or not we write more of that game, we can always incorporate aspects of it into other games.

For instance, I always assumed that what people liked the most about Pandora was the group of attractive ladies constrained to a relatively small ship. I expected The Warrior's Heart to strike a chord with Pandora fans because, in that aspect at least, it's kind of "Pandora in space."

But, is that not what makes Pandora so special to people? If not, is it one of these things?
1) A relatively inexperienced MC going after a relatively inexperienced love interest
2) The fact that it's literally on a boat (so a space ship or a small space station wouldn't be the same)
3) The Greek gods/Atlantis
4) The character models (as in, "I just want to see more or the Rita model" etc)
5) The characterizations of the people (as in, "I really want to know more about how Rita got to the way she is")
6) Something else I'm missing entirely

Let us know what you liked and we'll see if we can reasonably do more of that in our games, even if we don't get back to Pandora itself in the near future.

Tlaero
 

popabear

Member
Jul 11, 2019
316
2,095
I don't see how much better my SW game is to the games Tlaero writes. In fact, her experience as a writer, and being an English speaker show a huge gap (for better) in terms of writing flow, grammar, intonation, and prose even. The only difference I see between the games she writes and The Warrior's Hearth (if I'm following you correctly) is that in SWtWH I don't tell the story from the MC's perspective only. The story shifts to other characters perspectives (mainly the Imperial side) and that allows me to tell the whole story, much like the movies. In the Elsaverse and Keeley's games we follow another style of storytelling, the POV style where you see the events happening from the perspective of the character you're playing or following. In SW despite following the MC you follow other events. that's not a matter of good or bad storytelling; it's a matter of choice of perspective that you want the players to follow. I chose to incorporate both perspectives because the game would be much less interesting without the Imperial side as any SW movie shows.
It's an artistic, or directing choice, not proof of skill - in that department I'm way behind Tlaero.

There's also another important factor to take into account.
Tlaero writes the script first, the dialogues, the descriptions, and since it's text only she naturally, and masterfully, injects as much information as required to pass the necessary information to the reader. Then I make the pictures to match the descriptions and dialogues. Yeah, that may result in some redundancy where the text explains what the picture shows but better be safer than sorry; many players may not be as perceptive to notice what the picture fully entails and might appreciate the text enforcing the information, others may not understand English so well and appreciate a good picture to understand the message better. The risk of redundancy finds many benefits and we are happy with it.
When I made SW, or Pandora I always make the pictures first and then add the text only after resulting in me analyzing if the picture is good enough to pass the message or if I need to add text and description. The flaw in this is that it's up to my subjective analysis if the message passes or not and some people might not get the message because the picture isn't clear enough and I didn't compensate with the text.

I appreciate you praising that I did good with SW The Warrior's Heart, I really do. I'm happy with the game.
But I don't agree when you say that I tell better stories than Tlaero. At all.
Thanks for the reply. I'm really sorry for taking up so much of your time, that was never my intention. So sorry for that.

You're absolutely correct in that it's a directing choice! I'm so glad you said that. I think that when you think of yourself more like a movie director than a book writer that's when the magic happens! "What would Tarantino do?" That sort of thing. That's when a visual medium is used to its full potential. When you spend some time thinking about what a scene is supposed to show, which perspectives are necessary to use for the point to get across and when there's some subtlety in how it's delivered thats when you really wow an audience.

Using double exposition (image shows girl smiling, text below: "Alex smiles") Is the exact opposite of this. "Better safe than sorry" you say. No! Definitely not. It completely lacks subtlety. If it is absolutely centrally important to the reader that he really understands that Alex is smiling in that scene, then maybe a bit of text explaining it is necessary. But otherwise, "Show, don't tell".

When I get double exposition in my games (or movies) it feels like the author/director thinks I'm retarded. Does he think I will miss the fact that 'Alex smiles' unless he points it out to me, using text? Does he think I have a vision impairment and I can't see the smile? A reader wants to feel that they are smart, not held by the hand like alittle child. It's a clear situation of where you'll take something away, and shift the readers attention, by adding text. Think to yourself "when would text appear in a movie"? We have things like the opening crawl in the original SW, giving background exposition, but aside from that it's hard to come up with examples. Text exposition is used as little as possible by the really skilled visual storytellers. There is a reason for this. Less really is more!

One of the most fulfilling tricks using visual storytelling there is, is showing some detail which on the surface seems innocuous, but then turns out to be an important story element later. Somthing only a perceptive reader would notice. Maybe it's a facial expression not fitting the situation, or an item that's out of place, that then later is revealed to be important to the plot. If I as a perceptive reader has been able to deduce a situations true nature before the "big reveal" that's when I feel really smart and get really drawn in. You can really ruin this sort of thing by adding exposition to it: "Sarah makes a weird face". Now it's suddenly impossible to not notice it any more, and the fun is gone. I've been told how I'm supposed to interpret a situation instead of being given the option to figure it out for myself.

In VN type games though, one can't get around the fact that text is necessary to convey dialogue, but even then, if there is an option to show the information that scene is supposed to get across without "hearing" the characters talk then that is often the more appealing choice.

It's really strange to me that I'm even saying this because i know you understand how to do visual storytelling on quite a high level because I've seen you do it! How can one be competent without understanding that they are? Is it the Dunning-Kruger effect in action? It's super weird.

I's probably true that Tlaero is the better writer of you two, and has a better grasp of the English language. But who's the best visual storyteller? Who's the best director? Who can tell a story using pictures without text? Well you, you and you. And those skills are far more important when using a visual medium than the ability to produce good text. I'm not saying good text is not important, it is, but it's more like a topping than the main dish. And just like any topping, too much of it ruins the whole thing.

Hopefully, some time in the future you'll find a way to leverage both of your unique strengths into something that's really good. Just try to realize that to really succeed using a visual medium you'll need to think more like Tarantino and less like JK Rowling.

There definitely is a right and a wrong way to use a visual medium. When you go watch a movie you don't see lots of exposition text. There's a reason for that.

I would honestly love it if you'd take a course in movie making, script writing or any kind of visual story telling, if only for the fact that then maybe you'll understand that you actually already know how to do it! I think it would be good for your confidence.
 
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yandex

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I think what would really help is telling us what you really liked about Pandora. Whether or not we write more of that game, we can always incorporate aspects of it into other games.

For instance, I always assumed that what people liked the most about Pandora was the group of attractive ladies constrained to a relatively small ship. I expected The Warrior's Heart to strike a chord with Pandora fans because, in that aspect at least, it's kind of "Pandora in space."

But, is that not what makes Pandora so special to people? If not, is it one of these things?
1) A relatively inexperienced MC going after a relatively inexperienced love interest
2) The fact that it's literally on a boat (so a space ship or a small space station wouldn't be the same)
3) The Greek gods/Atlantis
4) The character models (as in, "I just want to see more or the Rita model" etc)
5) The characterizations of the people (as in, "I really want to know more about how Rita got to the way she is")
6) Something else I'm missing entirely

Let us know what you liked and we'll see if we can reasonably do more of that in our games, even if we don't get back to Pandora itself in the near future.

Tlaero
Thank you for the interaction. I think you hit the nail right on the head with your initial assumption of the attractive ladies, namely Nikki, Rita, the helicopter pilot (?), that research assistant (?) I dont think there have been as many attractive ladies in the other games as you said. What was implied at end of Pandora that next game would be from the perspective of a more mature crew member with all these ladies as possible love interests, I havent been able to stop hoping till today. Inexperienced aspect isnt much of a concern for me. Apart from the characters, I think Pandora itself was a very light, heartwarming, soft, adventurous and uplifting story. The character interactions, events they all played a part in making it the special thing it was. The mysterious aspect also was a special thing, but it was that light and comforting kind, as compared to a dark and gloomy one. In the end it was the combination of all these, and as with anything else we won't know before experience, how other projects fare in respect to Pandora, so best of luck for the future endeavors, and hope to see what made Pandora great, continue in Pandora itself or in other projects.
 

Corellien

Member
Aug 19, 2019
183
176
I agree about the light in Pandora. It's essential. Characterization and beautifull ladies too. I liked the adventurous tone, like Indiana Jones, but without any violence. The setting is very original... Too many stories are at home, at school, at the office... This one is really something else. One of my favorites. Even if it's hard to choose one best. All your stories are over the top, anyway! With Ariane, Elsa and her verse are my first... And always among the best.
 
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Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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Thanks, folks! I'll add these comments to my understanding of what you like about Pandora and will think about them in future stories.

Tlaero
 

Cabin Fever

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Nov 23, 2018
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I've known about your work for at least a year and I've tried it multiple times. Elsaverse and Life changes for Keeley. I've actually given you a lot more thought and attention than I otherwise would have, just because of how good Mortze's solo work is.

The latest entry shows clear as day that you still have not even thought to learn anything at all about how to use visual storytelling. If you're clueless now, is it reasonable to expect you to have understood it before? So yea you might say I'm extrapolating. You're still stuck trying to do novels with pictures, not using the tools available to you. And stacking exposition text on top of exposition images. Trying to make me play/read everything else you've done is not going to convert me. If you want to convert me you'll have to show me that you understand what visual storytelling is all about.

You really should take some time to learn how using visual storytelling is different from text-only storytelling. That would be a wayyy better use of your time than trying to start internet fights with a cartoon bear.

Maybe try googling it one day. Here's (Google's top search result)
You really should take some time to learn about Tlaero's place in the pantheon of modern VN with good storytelling. Virtually all of the top story-telling devs were either inspired by what she has done, or were inspired by someone that was inspired by her. That would be a wayyy better use of your time than trying to start internet fights with the godmother of VN with good stories.

(Sorry Tlaero, I absolutely do not mean that you are old at all.)
 

_13_

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Oct 8, 2020
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I don't know what Discord's policy is, but I'm certainly fine with anyone sharing our discord channel with fans and potential fans. It's open an free for anyone to join.

Tlaero
Just what I needed, another Discord channel... I've happily (and quickly) joined.
 

slightchance

Active Member
Mar 25, 2018
860
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Tlaero writes the script first, the dialogues, the descriptions, and since it's text only she naturally, and masterfully, injects as much information as required to pass the necessary information to the reader. Then I make the pictures to match the descriptions and dialogues. Yeah, that may result in some redundancy where the text explains what the picture shows but better be safer than sorry;
Only actions and dialogue belong into a script, nothing more and nothing less. Minuscule descriptions of scenes and other informations belong into the step outline or scriptment. When you've finished a scene to match whatever she was writing about, the dialogue should complement/complete the final image, not repeat it.
 

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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Only actions and dialogue belong into a script, nothing more and nothing less. Minuscule descriptions of scenes and other informations belong into the step outline or scriptment. When you've finished a scene to match whatever she was writing about, the dialogue should complement/complete the final image, not repeat it.
It just depends on the narrative style of the writer. In a screenplay it would be as you say but that's not the only style allowed, despite being the most used in VN. But there's nothing wrong with choosing a more narrative style. Some people don't like the redundant text, others love a bit more exposition because it allows the use of more complex structures and more beautiful and erotic wording -and yes, some people are turned on by words other than 'fuck me hard with that big cock!

Then, of course, we all can lecture the 10+ years experienced writer and game dev if we don't like what she's doing but let's not forget that not all games are for everybody's tastes and the important thing here is that this team has found a style they both like and helps them to boost their creativity and productivity (they have released an insane amount of content in these 6 years of partnership)
 
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slightchance

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It just depends on the narrative style of the writer.
If they want to work hand in hand they have to use a language they understand and can work with. From what I understand, they have both different approaches when working alone. The language being used in good scripts is universal though and might give him more visual freedom while she'll be able to work on the finer details in post (direct/indirect speech).
 

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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If they want to work hand in hand they have to use a language they understand and can work with. From what I understand, they have both different approaches when working alone. The language being used in good scripts is universal though and might give him more visual freedom while she'll be able to work on the finer details in post (direct/indirect speech).
Except that's not how she writes at all. And, again, they have already found a language they understand and can work with, it's just not the language you like the most
 

slightchance

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Mar 25, 2018
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Except that's not how she writes at all. And, again, they have already found a language they understand and can work with, it's just not the language you like the most
It's what Mortze said on this very page!? Besides, I think you are confusing me for someone who dislikes their stuff.
 

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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It's what Mortze said on this very page!? Besides, I think you are confusing me for someone who dislikes their stuff.
He said he works that way, from visual concepts to story... and also that he thinks he gives his 100% when Tlaero is feeding him with scripts and ideas (in part because he feels he owes to her and, this is my personal take on this, because that approach helps him to structure his own work, guiding him through his creative process with a clear goal in mind). Which is why I said they've found a common language and reached a certain level of understanding that makes them better at their jobs (she's said multiple times that she's also inspired by Mortze artwork, and sometimes a single pic is the spark that leads her to write a new story). They are who they are and while they are always trying to improve, this improvement won't mean they will change the way they are and work. Which is what led to this discussion (I realize you were just commenting on the 'visual narrative language' thing and not asking for a change on their view, so please excuse me if you feel attacked or something, it wasn't my intention at all)
 

Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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Only actions and dialogue belong into a script, nothing more and nothing less. Minuscule descriptions of scenes and other informations belong into the step outline or scriptment.
This is absolutely true ... if you're talking about a movie. But these types of video games aren't movies. They're not voice acted and they have very little movement. Movies work the way they do because there's acting in them. You can't "act" with static images (though, Mortze does such an amazing job with facial expressions, that you can almost squint and think the characters are acting).

If I ever go into writing for Movies or TV, I'll write the way that's needed for them. Videos games, though, are much more free form and open to the artist's interpretation and style. It's fine for people to not like my style though, just like it's fine for them to not like my content.

Tlaero
 

Dragon59

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Apr 24, 2020
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This is absolutely true ... if you're talking about a movie. But these types of video games aren't movies. They're not voice acted and they have very little movement. Movies work the way they do because there's acting in them. You can't "act" with static images (though, Mortze does such an amazing job with facial expressions, that you can almost squint and think the characters are acting).

Tlaero
Agreed! There are some artists whose work look like they are posing RealDolls(tm). Others are so good at expressions, it wipes away/goes beyond much of the Uncanny Valley so common in this medium.
 

slightchance

Active Member
Mar 25, 2018
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This is absolutely true ... if you're talking about a movie. But these types of video games aren't movies. They're not voice acted and they have very little movement. Movies work the way they do because there's acting in them. You can't "act" with static images.

Tlaero
Think of "actions" in a (movie) script as a way to convey what should be seen on the screen. They're short descriptions of what happens to who and where, not just actions in a literal sense.
You wouldn't write, for example, that the podium speaker is standing up while delivering a speech - unless it's an important detail to the plot/scene of course. You set the scene by introducing the character, what they say and how the environment reacts to it.

That works with static images too and it shouldn't be much of hassle for you to omit redundant sentences when the renders are done. There are really only a few scenes where you describe the obvious for no particular reason.
 

Corellien

Member
Aug 19, 2019
183
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I think weird this kind of discussion without any example.
On my little experience, I write scripts for comics. I can say it's very different than movie or even short novel. The writing technics have some similarities... But to write great, you need to understand that codes are not the same at all.
And I'm sure that games and comics are two different medias, writing for them demands different kind of skills.
The game don't have words inside the picture, for example.
In short, Tlaero IS a great game writer for sure!
 
4.60 star(s) 129 Votes