- Sep 6, 2020
- 275
- 3,831
Don't worry, I'll stick to my vision. Otherwise, I would've changed the whole setup in Beta.
Medb will still be harder to romance through decisions and points later on.
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Medb will still be harder to romance through decisions and points later on.
- Dec 17, 2021
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Well, yeah... forgive me. I'm new to that so, I didn't think to promote it. It is definitely an excellent solution as well. Plus you pick up on a bit more lore and story insight along the way... Of course we are speaking of Maviarab's excellent Walkthrough found on the OP.
- Jun 14, 2020
- 2,446
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You know I was one of them who said the end scene should be easier to get. We had this conversation and all your points you made, and some of them you repeated here, are valid and after several playthroughs I made I'm saying you are right. That's why I want to make a big THIS under this statement of Maviarab:
Ceo, don't change it to 13 points. If you really feel the need to make it easier, make it 14 points (minus the "bitch" point), but I think you shouldn't change it. The more time I play this Chapter and the more I learn about Medb and the Ljosálfar culture, the more I believe the current state of the requirements fits the best.
That I've never questioned and I'm happy you do. I've seen too many really good games going downhill after devs changed their visions to please demanding players. The best stories are those which are unique and yours is, because you do it your own way.
- Apr 29, 2023
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It makes sense once you do it and see her response, but why would you pick that unless you were trying to piss her off? That's a classic 'task failed successfully' type scenario.
- May 11, 2020
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About the funeral scene, I'm pretty neutral,I had no problems to get it, also don't really understood what was Enames point, I agree about bringing up the Information that Finabair is the daughter, I think that should be adressed, at some point.
My question is if someone without any for me understoodable reason, decides not to go the Ljosalfar, or to just close that door what alternative has this player to achieve the Story outcome, or to prevent a war, ?
My question is if someone without any for me understoodable reason, decides not to go the Ljosalfar, or to just close that door what alternative has this player to achieve the Story outcome, or to prevent a war, ?
- Jul 12, 2020
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I'm not sure the war actually can/will be preventable. The only difference in the paths will be if you are an enemy of the Alfar, on good terms with them and whether or not you're going to actively help the Templars either way.
I was looking at some of the files in the game and came across this dialogue, but can not figure out how to get it play in the game. I think this is a better ending to Chapter 5 
Ceolag
Is this play through in a future revision? I personally think it would add a new dimension to the game between the Alfars and the Templars... just saying. Keep up the good work.
Ceolag
Is this play through in a future revision? I personally think it would add a new dimension to the game between the Alfars and the Templars... just saying. Keep up the good work.
In my head i always thought it would of been neat had finnabair gotten pregnant just from that one encounter but it was probably scrapped. Can't imagine the dev pulling some kind of 5d chess move were she got pregnant and transferred the egg to someone else all within a 1-2 day period.I was looking at some of the files in the game and came across this dialogue, but can not figure out how to get it play in the game. I think this is a better ending to Chapter 5
Ceolag
Is this play through in a future revision? I personally think it would add a new dimension to the game between the Alfars and the Templars... just saying. Keep up the good work.
View attachment 3924785
I was at 16 out of 17 points for Medb and, with the Walkthrough, I was able to get the missed point when I chose not to refer the Alfar women as bitches...
I think it would be enjoyable if, much further down the road, Medb asks him about favorite moments he's shared with the Alfar and he told her:
'I liked that you smirked after telling me to never call you a bitch again. It showed me a sense of humor that I might some day enjoy.'
Whether or not we will get that level of lighthearted moment any time soon given the high likelihood of war is doubtful, but If we get that down the road, it will be something I enjoy and recognize as the MC and Medb having moved far from the beginning of their relationship.
I think I will break out the champagne when the MC points out something so humorous to Medb that she laughs so hard she has to hold onto him - shared humor being so important to any good relationship, especially one that grows into a romance.
IMO, that kind of laughter accepts vulnerability and clearly shows connection.
Cheers!!
- Jul 12, 2020
- 9,151
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Ohhh I would love that. But then I'm a sucker for being an old romantic so...I was at 16 out of 17 points for Medb and, with the Walkthrough, I was able to get the missed point when I chose not to refer the Alfar women as bitches...
I think it would be enjoyable if, much further down the road, Medb asks him about favorite moments he's shared with the Alfar and he told her:
'I liked that you smirked after telling me to never call you a bitch again. It showed me a sense of humor that I might some day enjoy.'
Whether or not we will get that level of lighthearted moment any time soon given the high likelihood of war is doubtful, but If we get that down the road, it will be something I enjoy and recognize as the MC and Medb having moved far from the beginning of their relationship.
I think I will break out the champagne when the MC points out something so humorous to Medb that she laughs so hard she has to hold onto him - shared humor being so important to any good relationship, especially one that grows into a romance.
IMO, that kind of laughter accepts vulnerability and clearly shows connection.
Cheers!!
- May 11, 2020
- 9,256
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Oh shure, just tell her that Kaija is an inocent, honest and unpoluted lamb and sooo femenine......I was at 16 out of 17 points for Medb and, with the Walkthrough, I was able to get the missed point when I chose not to refer the Alfar women as bitches...
I think it would be enjoyable if, much further down the road, Medb asks him about favorite moments he's shared with the Alfar and he told her:
'I liked that you smirked after telling me to never call you a bitch again. It showed me a sense of humor that I might some day enjoy.'
Whether or not we will get that level of lighthearted moment any time soon given the high likelihood of war is doubtful, but If we get that down the road, it will be something I enjoy and recognize as the MC and Medb having moved far from the beginning of their relationship.
I think I will break out the champagne when the MC points out something so humorous to Medb that she laughs so hard she has to hold onto him - shared humor being so important to any good relationship, especially one that grows into a romance.
IMO, that kind of laughter accepts vulnerability and clearly shows connection.
Cheers!!
- Sep 29, 2023
- 507
- 777
Alternatively, have another option (besides the bitches-one) also give +1, like "And you're still rude."
In my playthrough I lucked out with the "bitches"-option. I only tried it to see how Alex would say it, and if it would become a nasty discussion. But this made me decide to stay with that choice:
Alex: "Snitch."
Finn: "What does that word mean? I don't know it."
Alex: "It means you're good at communicating with others."
I just like Alex's reply here, it also shows a bit of his growth. A few weeks back, he would've gone into his shell and apologized instead.
- Sep 20, 2018
- 3,282
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You're welcome, of course; feedback is the least I can do given how much I'm enjoying the game. And I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond.Thanks for the long post, ename
I've taken my notes for future updates.
One thing I'd like to address is the ending part. I got that suggestion in Beta too. With pretty much the same reasoning.
It's not an oversight, it's done on purpose in this case. While I understand the demand of the player to see everything, it doesn't fit Medb's character.
She's the one in charge at that moment and it's her decision. Not Finnabair's, not MC's. And just because you're friends it doesn't automatically mean you're allowed to participate in that specific scene.
I had seen that happen a few times myself. Even very close friends or family weren't allowed to participate.
It would be completely against Medb's character to invite MC if she's not convinced about him.
The "MC could watch from a distance" is very close to a plothole imo. How would he know where and when? How would he get there while being considered almost an enemy at that point? Ailill could bring him in... against Medb's and potentially Mab's will?!
No... character motivation trumps everything in this scene for me. Every other solution would be a stretch at best.
HOWEVER:
I understand that it might be too hard to get that scene even if you're trying for it. With a wiggle room of 2 points and 1 point being very "unintuitive" to get there's not a lot of room for mistakes.
I'll drop the requirement for that scene to 13 points which is in line with all other LI's thresholds for their story (~75%).
The Steam version will get rolled out with that change and Patreon will get it with the next update (or a minor update...).
Thanks again for your long and exhaustive feedback.
Cheers,
Ceo
I can believe Medb would bar people from the event based on her own feelings rather than what she might have thought Finnabair would want; it's one of the reasons I'm not overly enamored of Medb. I still think the game suffers in the absence of some sort of capstone to tie up the emotional threads of the chapter, but dropping the Medb point requirement to 13 is a big step in the right direction. It should give players a decent chance to see the scene on a general run and an almost certain chance to see the scene on a Medb-focused run. That substantially increases the odds a player will recognize that there IS some closure to the chapter even if they don't see it on their preferred route. So thank you very much for that.
As far as my suggestion of the MC watching from a distance, I didn't mean to imply he'd sneak in without permission, just that it might be a way to invite him without letting him intrude on the ceremony proper. Sort of like the difference between lining the roads to wave at a celebrity marriage vs being inside the church. Just an idea, and it's a moot point now.
Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thoughts, and good luck on the game. I'm looking forward to Chapter 6.
I do take your point, but I don't think refusing to make ANY changes for fear of the slippery slope is a good idea. No one is perfect; mistakes will happen despite our best efforts. Doubling down when someone points one out rather than correcting the mistake is a recipe for disaster.
Obviously it's up to Ceolag to determine what is a mistake and what is a plot point (or at least a necessary evil), but making that sort of tough decision is why we pay him the not-as-big-as-he-deserves bucks.
I checked back when this was posted as a dev update and it did not show up here so I am posting an old dev update with information re: light and dark elves -- Ceolag's take on these and more:
Hey there,
I had this idea for another BTS to shorten the wait for Chapter 5 a bit.
DISCLAIMER FIRST:
The following text will contain slight spoilers for the background of my Elves.
Nothing important or story-relevant, but if you want to experience everything within the game first, skip this text and maybe come back after release.
As you might have noticed, I use Norse mythology quite a bit for my story.
The idea for the "function" of Neverwhere is basically inspired by what Norse mythology calls Yggdrasil although my version connects more than nine worlds.
The same is true for my version of Elves. I based the idea on Norse mythology and did my own thing after that.
Following the Prose Edda, there are Light Elves (Ljósálfar) and Dark/Black Elves (Dökkálfar/Svartálfar) although it's not entirely clear if it really means Dark Elves or "just" inhabitants of Svartálfheimr which might mean/include Dwarves.
Of course, I have my "own" idea of the Svartálfar but that one has to wait for future content.
In TNT Book 1, you'll only meet the Ljósálfar and this text is about them.
The homeworld of the Ljósálfar is Álfheimr and it's connected to Neverwhere.
When starting to gather ideas for Book 1 and thinking about how I want my Elves to portray, everything between "Mystical woodland creatures" and "Warhammer 40k Sci-Fi-Elves" was possible. From Bows to Laserguns, from basic hut in the trees to cyberpunk city.
The only thing that was clear from the beginning was that they'll be a long-living species.
My fascination for the conflict between a long-living species and one with a shorter lifespan goes back to R.A. Salvatore's Legend of Drizzt. In one of the books, Innovindil (a female Moon Elf) talks to Drizzt (who is in love with a human woman - Cattie-Brie) about what it means to live a long life together with species with shorter lifespans.
I loved that conflict back then and still do so it was an easy decision to include it in my game too.
Outside of the long lifespan, nothing was set in stone. Some things even changed a bit throughout the development of the first 3 chapters.
I kept asking myself the same questions over and over again.
How would a society look like if the individuals had literally thousands of years to live?
Would they develop faster compared to humans? Or slower?
Would such a species have a significant technological advantage?
Or would they even be behind "us" because "it worked in the past"?
How would being able to use magic openly influence it?
Why is Neverwhere not overrun by billions of Elves if they live that long?
Would there be the same conflict between generations (old vs young) as we have it? And will it be even worse if it has a thousand years to develop?
Over time my idea for the Elves went from typical Fantasy Elves to Cyberpunk Elves to what they're now: A society in between. Between tradition and technological progress. Between individuals who've been alive for more than a thousand years and ones who were born into our "modern" times.
Chapter 5 will pick up a few of those things and will give you a first impression of the image I came up with.
It will also give you the first few pieces of backstory for the conflict between Elves and Humans and a certain LI - if you make the correct choices.
Cheers,
Ceolag
Also - props to Ceolag for getting some of his inspiration for Alfar relationships with shorter lived species from the RA Salvatore classics with Drizzt and Catie-Brie!
For those who like the word Epic - IMO - Drizzt Do'Urden is an Epic hero!
Cheers!!
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Hey there,
I had this idea for another BTS to shorten the wait for Chapter 5 a bit.
DISCLAIMER FIRST:
The following text will contain slight spoilers for the background of my Elves.
Nothing important or story-relevant, but if you want to experience everything within the game first, skip this text and maybe come back after release.
As you might have noticed, I use Norse mythology quite a bit for my story.
The idea for the "function" of Neverwhere is basically inspired by what Norse mythology calls Yggdrasil although my version connects more than nine worlds.
The same is true for my version of Elves. I based the idea on Norse mythology and did my own thing after that.
Following the Prose Edda, there are Light Elves (Ljósálfar) and Dark/Black Elves (Dökkálfar/Svartálfar) although it's not entirely clear if it really means Dark Elves or "just" inhabitants of Svartálfheimr which might mean/include Dwarves.
Of course, I have my "own" idea of the Svartálfar but that one has to wait for future content.
In TNT Book 1, you'll only meet the Ljósálfar and this text is about them.
The homeworld of the Ljósálfar is Álfheimr and it's connected to Neverwhere.
When starting to gather ideas for Book 1 and thinking about how I want my Elves to portray, everything between "Mystical woodland creatures" and "Warhammer 40k Sci-Fi-Elves" was possible. From Bows to Laserguns, from basic hut in the trees to cyberpunk city.
The only thing that was clear from the beginning was that they'll be a long-living species.
My fascination for the conflict between a long-living species and one with a shorter lifespan goes back to R.A. Salvatore's Legend of Drizzt. In one of the books, Innovindil (a female Moon Elf) talks to Drizzt (who is in love with a human woman - Cattie-Brie) about what it means to live a long life together with species with shorter lifespans.
I loved that conflict back then and still do so it was an easy decision to include it in my game too.
Outside of the long lifespan, nothing was set in stone. Some things even changed a bit throughout the development of the first 3 chapters.
I kept asking myself the same questions over and over again.
How would a society look like if the individuals had literally thousands of years to live?
Would they develop faster compared to humans? Or slower?
Would such a species have a significant technological advantage?
Or would they even be behind "us" because "it worked in the past"?
How would being able to use magic openly influence it?
Why is Neverwhere not overrun by billions of Elves if they live that long?
Would there be the same conflict between generations (old vs young) as we have it? And will it be even worse if it has a thousand years to develop?
Over time my idea for the Elves went from typical Fantasy Elves to Cyberpunk Elves to what they're now: A society in between. Between tradition and technological progress. Between individuals who've been alive for more than a thousand years and ones who were born into our "modern" times.
Chapter 5 will pick up a few of those things and will give you a first impression of the image I came up with.
It will also give you the first few pieces of backstory for the conflict between Elves and Humans and a certain LI - if you make the correct choices.
Cheers,
Ceolag
Also - props to Ceolag for getting some of his inspiration for Alfar relationships with shorter lived species from the RA Salvatore classics with Drizzt and Catie-Brie!
For those who like the word Epic - IMO - Drizzt Do'Urden is an Epic hero!
Cheers!!
- Sep 20, 2018
- 3,282
- 13,608
I don't want to pour further fuel on a fire that seems to be dying, but my point was this: if you play through the chapter without seeing the "Daughter of the Sun" scene (and assuming you spared Finnabair's life), it feels very much like the television cut out in the final act of an episode. The events of the story come to a sudden halt, with no chance for narrative or (especially) emotional resonance. Seeing the "Daughter of the Sun" scene changes that experience *completely* - in ways that extend far beyond Medb. IMHO, that's too large a difference to be healthy. It's one thing for a chapter to be longer or more satisfying if you're on a certain path, but it should never feel gutted unless you're on a path.
I'm not trying to make Medb's path easier or horn in on her exclusive content, I just want the other routes to get *something* to help put the events of the chapter into a context beyond 'stuff happened.' There are plenty of ways that could be done beyond lowering the requirements to see the final scene, but most of them are a lot more work for Ceolag.
I mean you going to the funeral doesn't even make sense unless you we're doing Medb / Finnabair content. Your not suppose to have everything if your not willing to play threw their parts of the game. You don't see me complaining because i don't go for Kaija or the red head or the nerdy girl and i miss a lot of content by doing that but it is what it is.
It actually does feel like you want to be "shoe horned" in content for paths your not even on.
- Sep 20, 2018
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I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.
Forget the funeral. Have the MC meet Lugh on his way out of the city, or even just show the MC packing his bags and wondering to himself what he accomplished by coming to Alfheim. There has to be something to tie up the events of the chapter at the end that doesn't involve Medb, because however important Medb is, she is not Finnabair! Saying goodbye to the latter should not be tied irrevocably to the former.
- Jun 14, 2020
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- 7,502
Why? Medb is family, the mother of Finnabair. MC is..., well,... nothing. Just a friend, maybe. Finnabair reports everything to Medb. That's why you get Medb points when you're talking to Finnabair. When Finnabair's mother don't like MC enough, why should she invite him to one of the intimatest moments of a family?
I actually thought about that earlier today and your right but i also believe the pregnancy clinic scene that someone posted earlier that seemed to of been scrapped made Medb realize that the MC was more then just a "friend" to Finnabair, hence why he got the invitation.
- Jan 6, 2024
- 130
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You keep emphasizing that she is your friend and it gives you some rights.
So, hypothetically your friend dies in some accident, his parents/family don't like you and they not only don't invite you - they explicitly tell you to fuck off, and instead of respecting the family's decision and their need for privacy you decide to barge in... not sure, I believe you...
On the other hand, I dunno were are you from, so maybe in your country and culture that's fine...
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