Ren'Py The Sin Within [v0.4] [CigarRex]

[CigarRex]

Damn how did you make such a big and good update that quick? You work fast my dude, the game is shaping up to be amazing!

I'm actually pretty displeased it took me this long. Hoping I can do better next time.

 

[rspkers]

I don't know how else to put it, but the janky and hilarious bug-eyed pepe looking faces this game has actually makes it kinda endearing and charming. Normally I'd be weirded out, but something about your game keeps me interested, lol. I think unlike all those other games, you're actually putting effort into yours, and it shows. The extra animations, etc. There's a few character models, like the nerdy girl Carol, that makes it feel "realistic." It's like if you went to any regular school, you'd see "normal" looking people like that in addition to the hotties. Every other game has every single chick looking like these 10/10 bombshell women. Even the losers and social rejects are these goddesses lol. I'm not saying I want all of them to be "normal", just that I appreciate the variations. I definitely want there to be plenty of baddies in this game, but it's just refreshing to see that not everyone is, or that they are in their own way. It's unique among most games like this. I really dig it.

I have a few negative criticisms, though. Text speed feels off and honestly I was a bit disappointed to be thrown into a sandbox after the prologue with arbitrary "get to 100" grinding to progress. That's where it seems to have kinda dipped in enjoyment for me. I'm hoping the grind can be kept to a minimum, and the sandbox element not get too convoluted or overdone. You could always tell the story and have the player experience the same events without the need to do busywork to get there.

A lesser side gripe that isn't as important is that I understand your presence excites the girls into doing lewd stuff they normally wouldn't, but it's a bit weird when it's in public and other guys can see. Because Emily and Abbie going all out on each other right in front of your friends and a large crowd of dudes when just the day before they were shocked at you hugging your sister was a bit strange. I get they were all boozed and out of their minds because of your man musk, but aren't they supposed to be love interests in your harem? Seems like it would have been a better scene as a "not-canon" extra, or something. Again, not a big deal.

Keeping my eye on this one. Good luck dev.

 

[BlasKyau]

Yeah... As I said back in the release, some lesbian scenes were bound to happen in the story. It's tough to have them not happen at all, since it would compromise the story's integrity.
Making a game with choices always comes with a compromise between the variety of choices and the meaningfulness of the plots going on, as trying to cover too many alternatives gets hard very quickly.

I hope that the sandbox allows for more optional content going forward, so that people can pick and choose what they like most.

I don't mind that there is lesbian content as long as it's little and I don't have to watch it. However, I prefer to have the option to reject LIs with this content or prevent it from happening.

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I'm really only interested in the romantic paths, so if I can avoid the ones that are exclusively corrupt, that would be perfect.

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I would rather be able to choose that they haven't those kinds of scenes with anyone at any time.

Of the entire cast, there are 4 characters who are prostitutes. They show up only during the Night Club sequence.
Their scenes are exclusively featuring the MC, but even still, are entirely optional.
Their future content will also be 100% optional for the plot.

There won't be "prostitution" content for any other character other than them, as well.
Everyone else will be 100% involved with the MC, some cases with a few interactions with other girls.

I hope that any sex scene in the Night Club sequence is optional.

 

[CigarRex]

I don't know how else to put it, but the janky and hilarious bug-eyed pepe looking faces this game has actually makes it kinda endearing and charming. Normally I'd be weirded out, but something about your game keeps me interested, lol. I think unlike all those other games, you're actually putting effort into yours, and it shows. The extra animations, etc. There's a few character models, like the nerdy girl Carol, that makes it feel "realistic." It's like if you went to any regular school, you'd see "normal" looking people like that in addition to the hotties. Every other game has every single chick looking like these 10/10 bombshell women. Even the losers and social rejects are these goddesses lol. I'm not saying I want all of them to be "normal", just that I appreciate the variations. I definitely want there to be plenty of baddies in this game, but it's just refreshing to see that not everyone is, or that they are in their own way. It's unique among most games like this. I really dig it.

I have a few negative criticisms, though. Text speed feels off and honestly I was a bit disappointed to be thrown into a sandbox after the prologue with arbitrary "get to 100" grinding to progress. That's where it seems to have kinda dipped in enjoyment for me. I'm hoping the grind can be kept to a minimum, and the sandbox element not get too convoluted or overdone. You could always tell the story and have the player experience the same events without the need to do busywork to get there.

A lesser side gripe that isn't as important is that I understand your presence excites the girls into doing lewd stuff they normally wouldn't, but it's a bit weird when it's in public and other guys can see. Because Emily and Abbie going all out on each other right in front of your friends and a large crowd of dudes when just the day before they were shocked at you hugging your sister was a bit strange. I get they were all boozed and out of their minds because of your man musk, but aren't they supposed to be love interests in your harem? Seems like it would have been a better scene as a "not-canon" extra, or something. Again, not a big deal.

Keeping my eye on this one. Good luck dev.

Thanks for the feedback!

Regarding the "get to 100 love" quest in this version:

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And, regarding the Night Club scene - it's been discussed to death already. You are warned of the content beforehand and you can skip it.

Also, I may revise the use of slow text going forward. I can see why it's annoying

 

[anon280]

Great update!
There is no grind to this sandbox because there are so many scenes to see, if you like all 3 girls
I'm pleased that you kept it within the family for now as most incest games leave their content much more sparse, to milk audience

And although nothing in the sort of sexual acts with the girls has happened, you did a good job of all the teasing - i'm sure not many will like this approach as they can only get off on actual sex but for me I was holding back from cumming just to keep playing (those masturbation scenes were really hot!! - so much animation too)​

I think you could source some more female sfx, just for some variety​

I would have liked some sort of successful sexual endeavour too, instead of everytime MC walking off or being narratively cockblocked​

BUT i understand this version is the transition to more relationship building with the Harada girls which can only lead to one thing after . and i reckon other girls weren't nearly need as much work​

A lot of heart went into making those scenes i can see.
Something i noticed was how much sweaty scenes there are in this game - I dig that.

Anothr suggestion: the prologue pacing was top tier and really makes the sandbox not be a drag because it has context to it. So in future updates, if there could be more VN style versions, that may help the game and enhance any sandbox moments.

​

Man i love how MC treats Penny making her blush so much.

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CigarRex Now that your game may get much more traction with a second big update, you will get a lot more criticism as well as demands. Please be wary of how you engage with these demands - esp if they aren't your paying patrons. Maintain your own creative and sexual interest at the same time because I'm sure there are those who like what you like - if you just do what others want you will run your motivation dry. And i'd hate to see someone with this talent abandon his work.
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penny is such a cutie

makes me wana uwu
the fact that she's the biggest pervert makes it even better

 

[CigarRex]

I don't mind that there is lesbian content as long as it's little and I don't have to watch it. However, I prefer to have the option to reject LIs with this content or prevent it from happening.



I'm really only interested in the romantic paths, so if I can avoid the ones that are exclusively corrupt, that would be perfect.



I would rather be able to choose that they haven't those kinds of scenes with anyone at any time.



I hope that any sex scene in the Night Club sequence is optional.

1 - Shouldn't be a problem. Many girls will be optional, as will the lesbian scenes for those who aren't

2 - This is a story about corruption. And romance. There's nothing extreme going on at the moment, but it may be difficult to avoid the tag forever.

3 - (1)

4 - You can skip all of it

 

[CigarRex]

Great update!
There is no grind to this sandbox because there are so many scenes to see, if you like all 3 girls
I'm pleased that you kept it within the family for now as most incest games leave their content much more sparse, to milk audience

And although nothing in the sort of sexual acts with the girls has happened, you did a good job of all the teasing - i'm sure not many will like this approach as they can only get off on actual sex but for me I was holding back from cumming just to keep playing (those masturbation scenes were really hot!! - so much animation too)​

I think you could source some more female sfx, just for some variety​

I would have liked some sort of successful sexual endeavour too, instead of everytime MC walking off or being narratively cockblocked​

BUT i understand this version is the transition to more relationship building with the Harada girls which can only lead to one thing after . and i reckon other girls weren't nearly need as much work​

A lot of heart went into making those scenes i can see.
Something i noticed was how much sweaty scenes there are in this game - I dig that.

Anothr suggestion: the prologue pacing was top tier and really makes the sandbox not be a drag because it has context to it. So in future updates, if there could be more VN style versions, that may help the game and enhance any sandbox moments.

​

Man i love how MC treats Penny making her blush so much.

Spoiler

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CigarRex Now that your game may get much more traction with a second big update, you will get a lot more criticism as well as demands. Please be wary of how you engage with these demands - esp if they aren't your paying patrons. Maintain your own creative and sexual interest at the same time because I'm sure there are those who like what you like - if you just do what others want you will run your motivation dry. And i'd hate to see someone with this talent abandon his work.
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penny is such a cutie
View attachment 2786990
makes me wana uwu
the fact that she's the biggest pervert makes it even better

Thanks for the incredibly kind words, friend. I'm glad you enjoyed the update

I'm making sure that, with any feedback and requests made, any changes still resonate with what I want the game to be like.
Glad to have you on board!

 

[rspkers]

Thanks for the feedback!

Regarding the "get to 100 love" quest in this version:

Spoiler

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And, regarding the Night Club scene - it's been discussed to death already. You are warned of the content beforehand and you can skip it.

Also, I may revise the use of slow text going forward. I can see why it's annoying

There's a categorical difference between skippable content and optional content. One happens regardless of what you do, and one doesn't happen at all. Choosing to walk away from the scene happening in front of the MC only means you chose not to witness it happening anyway. Given that you understood the value of making a "non-canon" extras feature to clarify certain extra scenes, that much should be obvious. In short, while you'll always have people mad about something, the smallest technicality could have prevented people like me from even bringing it up as a first-time player who didn't read the entire thread, and would certainly have prevented it from being "discussed to death."

I don't think it's weird at all. The point I was making was that given the introduction of the money/hearts mechanic, I was hoping it wasn't indicative of any potential grind busywork in the future, and hoped that it would be kept to a minimum. But since you're saying the plan is to have it naturally unlock as you play, there's nothing to worry about here. Nothing in the game clarifies this the way you just did, however. I'm just a player, and I don't immediately know your intentions going forward.

Good luck.

 

[CigarRex]

There's a categorical difference between skippable content and optional content. One happens regardless of what you do, and one doesn't happen at all. Choosing to walk away from the scene happening in front of the MC only means you chose not to witness it happening anyway. Given that you understood the value of making a "non-canon" extras feature to clarify certain extra scenes, that much should be obvious. In short, while you'll always have people mad about something, the smallest technicality could have prevented people like me from even bringing it up as a first-time player who didn't read the entire thread, and would certainly have prevented it from being "discussed to death."

I don't think it's weird at all. The point I was making was that given the introduction of the money/hearts mechanic, I was hoping it wasn't indicative of any potential grind busywork in the future, and hoped that it would be kept to a minimum. But since you're saying the plan is to have it naturally unlock as you play, there's nothing to worry about here. Nothing in the game clarifies this the way you just did, however. I'm just a player, and I don't immediately know your intentions going forward.

Good luck.

Don't worry buddy. It's all good

 

[AggressiveCheeto]

Just played the game from start to the latest version and loved every bit of it. Game is already pretty loaded and seems like it has a solid foundation to begin with so I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. Can't fault people for not wanting to see certain things but I think it was handled well in the prologue and if nothing else, it's worth watching for the relatively subtle plot relevant details which I always love looking out for.

 

[Ruykiru]

By the way I forgot to post this but it's gonna become a tradition each time there's a new update:

 

[CigarRex]

By the way I forgot to post this but it's gonna become a tradition each time there's a new update:
View attachment 2787434

lmao

 

[illogicallity]

That's gotta be the most jarring switch to sandbox I've ever seen. Like a 2+ hour prologue of pure VN then suddenly bam now we're sandbox, have fun clicking everything trying to find the content now. VN was good, sandbox not so much. Good luck in the future, but hope you consider developing a VN-only mode.

 

[letmebackinmom]

I agree with other comments, the game would have been perfect without the sandbox element but if dev really wants it implemented then we we have to respect his decision. Just keep it at bare minimum I guess

 

[CubeD]

That's gotta be the most jarring switch to sandbox I've ever seen. Like a 2+ hour prologue of pure VN then suddenly bam now we're sandbox, have fun clicking everything trying to find the content now. VN was good, sandbox not so much. Good luck in the future, but hope you consider developing a VN-only mode.

Absolutely agree. It went from a nice progression with an interesting story to suddenly being lost. The whole time completing the sandbox I was wondering when the story would pick up again.
Then having the 100 points on three characters as a goal made me just lock onto one character, watch the scenes one time and then skip through them again and again until the task was complete, expecting the story to then progress when reaching the goal. But no.
It didn't help that previous scenes would play out the same way multiple times and not disappearing making me think the sandbox element was just a loop thing.

Sort of a bittersweet moment. I liked the prologue to a degree I was looking forward to the next update of the story but got pretty disappointed to see it switch to full on sandbox loop mode.
I can only hope the note book thing we will have good quest guidance so in the future you can stick to the story and then I guess use a gallery unlock to check the loop scenes afterwards.

 

[CigarRex]

This is, and always has been planned as a sandbox game.
Future updates will feature progression with more characters, which will in turn progress their plotlines further.
Everything you saw in the prologue is but a setup for this world, and the stories we'll uncover, all bit by bit.

Make of that what you will. This is just the start of this story.

 

[Tiur]

Seeing these reports about the sandbox being repetitive is very sadly disappointing. That's exactly the thing that makes most people avoid sandboxes, and the rest of the game was very promising after the slightly shaky initial release. I could've sworn CigarRex said that the sandbox wouldn't be grindy, but if we've got to repeat events that are literally identical to bring up stats for unlocks, that's a huge shame and runs counter to that statement.

The reason I have to go off what people are saying is that none of my saves from the end of 0.2.1 will even GO to the sandbox. I have saves at:
"This is still a mystery..." - end of prologue
Drink choice to see Penny, Mom, or Robin scene
Talking with Greed just after the skippable girl-girl scene in the office

All three of these give me the same "To be continued" from 0.2.1 and then exit to menu when I skip through to the end.

Edited to add: I've n ow spent 15 minutes holding Ctrl through parts of the prologue from progressively older saves, and all of them exit back to the menu after that "To be continued". Looking at the code, I don't even see any jumps at the end of the prologue file, so this guarantees saves from during the prologue will be broken, because the end of the prologue file acts as a return, but there's nothing on the return stack for those saves.

 

[Tiur]

This is, and always has been planned as a sandbox game.
Future updates will feature progression with more characters, which will in turn progress their plotlines further.
Everything you saw in the prologue is but a setup for this world, and the stories we'll uncover, all bit by bit.

Make of that what you will. This is just the start of this story.

The main issue here is that you're going from a very good VN-style prologue into a mostly-empty, very bad sandbox (if you have to play the same event more than once for any reason, it is a very bad sandbox; that may be temporary, but it doesn't change the state as it is). It's a matter of expectations and presentation. It also strongly discourages people from continuing to support, because they may have to wait several updates for storyline changes to the characters they care about, and storylines that may cross over between characters may fall out of sync as some update, and others don't.

 

[CigarRex]

Seeing these reports about the sandbox being repetitive is very sadly disappointing. That's exactly the thing that makes most people avoid sandboxes, and the rest of the game was very promising after the slightly shaky initial release. I could've sworn CigarRex said that the sandbox wouldn't be grindy, but if we've got to repeat events that are literally identical to bring up stats for unlocks, that's a huge shame and runs counter to that statement.

The reason I have to go off what people are saying is that none of my saves from the end of 0.2.1 will even GO to the sandbox. I have saves at:
"This is still a mystery..." - end of prologue
Drink choice to see Penny, Mom, or Robin scene
Talking with Greed just after the skippable girl-girl scene in the office

All three of these give me the same "To be continued" from 0.2.1 and then exit to menu when I skip through to the end.

This is very strange, since 0.2.1 always ended from the prologue straight to the sandbox, even though the scenes weren't ready yet. Don't know what that could be... Try just making a new save then. Haven't seen any incident of being thrown back to the menu.

In regards to the "grindiness" of it... Yes, of course you can repeat events, and they will still reward you with 'love points'. This is how any and all sandboxes go.

You get an incentive to max your relationship points with the 3 currently available girls to get 500$ from Greed, money which only serves to unlock extra scenes (detached from the plot) as of now.

The point of the update isn't 'maxing out the points' by grinding... It's interacting with the girls and unlocking all their currently available scenes... As I said, just playing the update.

Playing through all these scenes once each will naturally get your goal with Greed done. It is a placeholder quest anyways - just a means of giving the player money when there's still not any money-making systems available (you only walk around the house for now)

The plan is to simply open up this world. You can stay at home and experience the family scenes, and eventually go out to other locations to do the same things with other characters.
Special events that further their storylines meaningfully will be unlocked as you develop the relationships. No mystery to that. Though, such an event is still unimplemented for the family girls.

Hope I can come across with what I mean here.

 

[Tiur]

This is very strange, since 0.2.1 always ended from the prologue straight to the sandbox, even though the scenes weren't ready yet. Don't know what that could be... Try just making a new save then. Haven't seen any incident of being thrown back to the menu.

Yes, I had to start an entirely new save for the sandbox to load at all, and go through the entire prologue again. So you might want to warn people in the Dev Notes that saves made during the prologue in earlier versions may not work. In my saves (which were from a game started in 0.1), I had never seen the sandbox preview, either. It always, always dropped me to menu after the prologue, in every version.

In regards to the "grindiness" of it... Yes, of course you can repeat events, and they will still reward you with 'love points'. This is how any and all sandboxes go.

You get an incentive to max your relationship points with the 3 currently available girls to get 500$ from Greed, money which only serves to unlock extra scenes (detached from the plot) as of now.

The point of the update isn't 'maxing out the points' by grinding... It's interacting with the girls and unlocking all their currently available scenes... As I said, just playing the update.

Playing through all these scenes once each will naturally get your goal with Greed done. It is a placeholder quest anyways - just a means of giving the player money when there's still not any money-making systems available (you only walk around the house for now)

Yeah, having that goal/quest/extras in the game as it currently stands is probably a bad idea, then, even as a placeholder. Without guidance that you DON'T need to replay events, it incentivizes grinding. And if you don't need to replay events, why make them replayable in the first place, especially since they all show up in the Gallery anyway?

But this all just brings us back to how sandbox gameplay itself tends to incentivize repetition for both the player and dev, artificially extending the gameplay time without actually adding any engaging gameplay.

For example: What's the purpose of making empty locations clickable? Is it possible for little vignette events to happen in those? Is it possible to find 'hidden' events in them? If so, then you've incentivized clicking all the blank locations BEFORE going to any locations with known characters, and people may get annoyed at repeatedly clicking empty locations when the vignettes/hidden events don't play (if they're random, or time-locked, etc.). Are the empty locations truly empty? If so, why not just have a menu of choices for who to talk to instead of a map/set of sandbox locations? If empty locations START OUT as empty, then vignettes or 'hidden' events appear later on without any indication on the navigation, then you're incentivizing gameplay that will cheat people out of scenes.

In any case, sandboxes intentionally add friction to story/gameplay by forcing multiple clicks to get to events that a VN would simply play, or give access to via a menu choice.

Beyond that, since there's no guidance for the sandbox, dropping from prologue straight into a sandbox UI is, as others have said, very jarring.

The plan is to simply open up this world. You can stay at home and experience the family scenes, and eventually go out go other locations to do the same things with other characters.

The "eventually" there is doing some pretty heavy lifting, and is a discouragement from supporting.

As for opening up the world, what's the purpose? It unnecessarily limits story options, because you've got to keep most of the world relatively static, or you start to have to test for certain event completion orders for every event that would otherwise be affected... At which point you're just recreating a branching VN with more work for both you and the players.

If events/characters are limited by time periods (which they are in this game), it's even worse, because you artificially extend gameplay time by incentivizing the click-click-click of trying to find the right time/day for the event you're waiting for (and hoping you don't trigger any automatic events that push past that expected time). It also brings up the specter of potentially-missable events.

It also means now we're stuck click-click-clicking the Pass Time button to try to get the right character in the right place at the right time to be able to trigger an event we didn't unlock yet... Which is artificially-extended gameplay time that doesn't engage, but is instead frustrating.

Special events that further their storylines meaningfully will be unlocked as you develop the relationships. No mystery to that. Though, such an event is still unimplemented for the family girls.

Ah. Then I guess it's an even longer wait for meaningful story progression. Very disappointing even setting aside the grind question.

Fundamentally, I understand you've made the decision to stick with sandbox, and that's fine for your game, but any time there's a promising VN that turns into sandbox, I try to explain why people dislike sandboxes in the hopes that I can convince at least one dev to switch back to a prviously-promising VN.

EDITED TO ADD: You also aren't showing any indication on the navigation when you've already completed an event, so you're making it much more likely that people will ACCIDENTALLY replay events. There's no difference between the icon showing that an event is available that you've never seen, and an event is available that you HAVE seen.