Ren'Py Abandoned The Things We Do For Love [Ep. 1-2] [DSeductionGames]

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RoadWulf

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Nov 18, 2018
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The purple would be good for Alexander, not only because it's a gender neutral color, but because it's subconsciously a color we associate with abuse.

Oh and I went to a color picker and put it in, I like the shade.
 
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TiffanyMonroe

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May 29, 2018
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Alright people no need for being discourteous to each other. A measure of respect and acceptance for different opinions is appreciated.
I was just confused at what they were talking about. All I asked was since his sister is an alpha female can "we" turn him into a sissy and they attack me with a bunch of feminist rhetoric like I'm some normie that never attended a gender studies class and know the truth.
 
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TiffanyMonroe

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Very clearly, you were one of 3 people caught up in that. Had you not chosen a slur, you wouldn't have been. The majority of it was not aimed at you, but I wanted to be sure that the sentiment was clear to all who chose to use the slur. If if continues I will report you. No. I do not give a flying fuck about the patronage of one person who cares more about being able to say toxic shit than they do the effect that toxic shit might have on the psyche of the already marginalized people it targets.

Again, it is now, and will always be your choice to engage with my content or not. If content that challenges societal norms doesn't interest you, feel free to find a safe space in a game that doesn't elsewhere.
I honestly never knew sissy was a "slur". I've had it in my signature for the past few weeks and only received praise and people wanting to know where the animation is from.
We might just be talking passed each other because I have no idea where you got the idea of "content that challenges societal norms doesn't interest you" from. lol
For the record I LIKE YOUR GAME. I only asked a simple yes or no question. I wasn't asking you to change or remove anything.
I also would ask you nicely with respect to focus on creating your game instead of straw-manning me for some reason.:LOL:
 

Ilfenis

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Feb 7, 2019
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I was just confused at what they were talking about. All I asked was since his sister is an alpha female can "we" turn him into a sissy and they attack me with a bunch of feminist rhetoric like I'm some normie that never attended a gender studies class and know the truth.
I understand your comment about sissies was in jest. I personally don't have a problem with that term and I doubt most people here do either.

What I personally feel the need to challenge, and maybe some people do as well, is the whole load of terminology that you like to bandy about as if to advertise how "woke" you are and how much you like to visit 4chan.

" attack me with a bunch of feminist rhetoric like I'm some normie that never attended a gender studies class and know the truth". Wow. So redpilled. Seriously? Do you actually think this makes you look smart or impressive?
 
Jun 9, 2017
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I was just confused at what they were talking about. All I asked was since his sister is an alpha female can "we" turn him into a sissy and they attack me with a bunch of feminist rhetoric like I'm some normie that never attended a gender studies class and know the truth.
Let me apologize for my colleague's unintended affront.
 
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Walter Victor

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Dec 27, 2017
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I honestly never knew sissy was a "slur". I've had it in my signature for the past few weeks and only received praise and people wanting to know where the animation is from.
We might just be talking passed each other because I have no idea where you got the idea of "content that challenges societal norms doesn't interest you" from. lol
For the record I LIKE YOUR GAME. I only asked a simple yes or no question. I wasn't asking you to change or remove anything.
I also would ask you nicely with respect to focus on creating your game instead of straw-manning me for some reason.:LOL:
While 'sissy' is considered a pejorative by most, it is also a tag that can be used here. Not to mention the games that actually have it their titles.

To me, it was obvious that you were using the term to elicit information, and not to slur. Unfortunately, many people are very sensitive about this topic (and way too many others).
 

Ilfenis

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Feb 7, 2019
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Do not come into this thread to invalidate the experiences of those you don't understand. Do not treat this thread as a place to denigrate the manhood of others. I will not tolerate speech that may cause harm to people in this thread and will apply liberal use of the report feature. I ask that the moderation staff use extreme prejudice. My game does challenge the status quo of masculinity, heteronormativity, and misogyny in games. It will quickly devolve into flame wars if not moderated properly.
See this kinda gets me. We shouldn't even need to explain something like this. We all know Manhood is about more than just being pushy and faking confidence. We also haven't even taken account of the fact that Alexander is barely into adulthood and probably doesn't know what it is to be a Man yet.

I'm not being personally harmed and I don't really think anyone is either by these complaints about Alexander, it's just that I don't think they're justified, and it would be a shame for these guys to miss out on the promise that I see in this game just because of some hang-ups on what a Man should look like and behave - and it's not even necessarily that it's wrong to be macho, but that adding sensitivity and bashfulness in certain situations actually rounds out a guy and arguably makes him more interesting (and attractive to ladies).
 

Robert Monotoli

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Jun 16, 2018
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I honestly never knew sissy was a "slur". I've had it in my signature for the past few weeks and only received praise and people wanting to know where the animation is from.
We might just be talking passed each other because I have no idea where you got the idea of "content that challenges societal norms doesn't interest you" from. lol
For the record I LIKE YOUR GAME. I only asked a simple yes or no question. I wasn't asking you to change or remove anything.
I also would ask you nicely with respect to focus on creating your game instead of straw-manning me for some reason.:LOL:
I am neutral on the connotation of "sissy" but I want to note that the term "sissy" is apparently considered "derogatory" according to the Wiktionary entry . Considering the definition of what is "derogatory", I imagine that "slur" is "derogatory" in nature so it probably fits. However, I may be mistaken. I think what ultimately matters, though, is the actual intent behind the use of a term.

At any rate, I would not make a huge deal out of this since it seem to be a honest case of misunderstanding on both sides. Perhaps better clarification was in order.

Finally, I should note that the ideal and concept of masculinity has changed over the time (see this Wikipedia entry , especially under history section). Masculinity today is certainly not the same as it was thought of in the ancient Rome. To put it simply, no ideas or concepts is truly unchanging.
 

TiffanyMonroe

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May 29, 2018
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I understand your comment about sissies was in jest. I personally don't have a problem with that term and I doubt most people here do either.

What I personally feel the need to challenge, and maybe some people do as well, is the whole load of terminology that you like to bandy about as if to advertise how "woke" you are and how much you like to visit 4chan.

" attack me with a bunch of feminist rhetoric like I'm some normie that never attended a gender studies class and know the truth". Wow. So redpilled. Seriously? Do you actually think this makes you look smart or impressive?
All I'll say is the same dogma they tried to brainwash me in college with is spreading like a cancerous tumor all over society to all points of the world and at this point the damage has been done.
I'll tell you about the time I was red-pilled on feminism.
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Robert Monotoli

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I was just confused at what they were talking about. All I asked was since his sister is an alpha female can "we" turn him into a sissy and they attack me with a bunch of feminist rhetoric like I'm some normie that never attended a gender studies class and know the truth.
No offense, but I feel like the claim to have been attacked with feminist rhetoric is a bit stretch from what I can see here. One could just as well criticize the use of term "sissy" only from masculine perspective without being a feminist. "Sissy" might be feminist in a way but I fail to see the connection between feminism and that term because that term is generally insulting to any males labeled as such.

I think it is highly unlikely that feminists would really care about "sissy" one way or another because it does neither reinforce nor does it negatively impacted the feminism in any way. To my knowledge, feminism is all about female empowerment and gender equality but not female domination so "sissy" would have a very little relevance in that movement. Perhaps I am missing something in here so feel free to enlighten me. *shrugs*

I know the controversy is past now and we should move on but I just want to understand where this claim of feminist rhetoric is coming from. Perhaps that claim was just made in heat of passion?
 

TiffanyMonroe

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May 29, 2018
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No offense, but I feel like the claim to have been attacked with feminist rhetoric is a bit stretch from what I can see here. One could just as well criticize the use of term "sissy" only from masculine perspective without being a feminist. "Sissy" might be feminist in a way but I fail to see the connection between feminism and that term because that term is generally insulting to any males labeled as such.

I think it is highly unlikely that feminists would really care about "sissy" one way or another because it does neither reinforce nor does it negatively impacted the feminism in any way. To my knowledge, feminism is all about female empowerment and gender equality but not female domination so "sissy" would have a very little relevance in that movement. Perhaps I am missing something in here so feel free to enlighten me. *shrugs*

I know the controversy is past now and we should move on but I just want to understand where this claim of feminist rhetoric is coming from. Perhaps that claim was just made in heat of passion?
Oh no I meant the other things they said. lol Those feminist buzzwords but now that I reread his post, it seems like he might've been trolling me. And you're right it's all in the past. Cheers.(y)
 

Ilfenis

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Feb 7, 2019
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All I'll say is the same dogma they tried to brainwash me in college with is spreading like a cancerous tumor all over society to all points of the world and at this point the damage has been done.
I'll tell you about the time I was red-pilled on feminism.
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Ok, so it's obvious that the blow-hard teachers you had teaching you this bullshit in college had no idea what they were talking about. However, this doesn't represent every person or idea under the banner of "feminism", and I hope you had the judgment and perception to understand that.

I was also frustrated by some of the shitty nonsensical reading I had to do in University on Foucault and "Postmodernist Critical Theory and how it related to Political Exegesis", and I totally get that experience of thinking that these tenured "professors" were just blowing hot air in our faces.

I just hope you realize there's no sense in jumping into the other extreme, after realizing all of this. Shit you see from the other side, whether it be on imageboards or forums, can be just as dogmatic and cancerous.
 

Robert Monotoli

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Jun 16, 2018
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All I'll say is the same dogma they tried to brainwash me in college with is spreading like a cancerous tumor all over society to all points of the world and at this point the damage has been done.
I'll tell you about the time I was red-pilled on feminism.
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I will say, the idea of aborting male babies so they can't grow up to be rapists is quite.... bizarre. Considering that females have had part in the violent history of our human race, surely they are just as culapable as their male counterparts and therefore also qualifying for this extreme "solution"? Of course, it would mean human extinction so that is quite ridiculous.

It is very well possible it was said in jest but then, again, you did say students were cheering. It is quite bizarre, to say at least.

Indeed, as Mr. Spock is fond of saying on Star Trek, it is illogical. In fact, Star Trek: The Original Series has an episode very much relevant to this illogicality. I recommend watching "A Taste of Armageddon". To make long story short, two planets having been in a long war in a distant past agreed to a computer-simulated war to prevent any further horror, destruction, and carnage.

People who were at locations declared by the computer to have been "attacked" by the other planet must report to disintegration chamber. Thus, no sufferings, no destruction. It is a clever way to not face up to the real consequences. But it meant that they cannot resolve the problem, specifically the war, in a meaningful manner. Buildings is still there but people still died, the only real difference is that they were just instantly disintegrated, no prolonged physical suffering there.

Just like some people you were describing wished to avoid rapes completely, which is of course impossible and will probably never ever happen. Why? Because human are inherently selfish by nature. Wrongs by humans will persist in one form or another. It would indeed be only ignorant to not acknowledge this truth, as much as it hurts. No question that rapes is wrong. But the suggested solution would be basically committing suicide because you cannot even have female babies if there are no males around anymore. Sure, we could have sperms frozen but the real cost here is diversity. What kind of the world would that be? It is like asking for blacks to be aborted so we could have the society exclusively non-black. Of course, this "solution" is so ridiculous.

A proof that human illogicality has no bounds. As cold as the Vulcan people may seem in their sometimes over-zealous application of logic in Star Trek, sometimes I envy them and especially more so that I read your story. Yet, emotions and passions is not necessarily bad and can be useful but it have to be channeled in a constructive manner. These people you talked about failed to do that. And more to the point, passions and emotions is a fundamental part of our human nature.

Anyway, I apologize for going way off-topic and my long essay-like post but I think in consideration of all of this, I think the developers here is very much courageous in willing to challenge the ways that we traditionally think about how games ought to be designed, how the story should be told, and the societal norms in general. Not a lot of people would relish doing something that would surely provoke some unpleasant confrontations. Not everyone is cut out for this. But if it were not for the kind of these people, we would not have American Revolution, English Civil Wars, Glorious Revolution of 1688 in England, American Civil War, nay not even the Protestant Reformation. Confrontations is natural and necessary if the human society is not to become static and stagnant.

Even then, there is wrong ways to confront the important questions and your class you cited is a perfect example of this.
 
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DarthSeduction

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I honestly never knew sissy was a "slur". I've had it in my signature for the past few weeks and only received praise and people wanting to know where the animation is from.
While I wouldn't call the word sissy good, I was 100% talking about the word beta. As I stated in that initial comment, the entire concept of alpha and beta is unscientific nonsense. It comes from 1 man's flawed observation of wolf behavior. Said man has recanted the idea publicly. So, when human men apply the terms to humans, they're already making a jump in applying a false dichotomy, but it's a false dichotomy based on a false premise.

This word is a part of the Manosphere's language. The Manoshphere, from incels, to basic red-pilled douchenozzles, to the assholes who believe themselves to be "Alpha", and finally to the worst part of all, the death cult level black-pilled people, are clearly, by the actual definitions provided by the essay Ur Fascism, fascists. Repeating their rhetoric, even if one doesn't realize or intend is harmful. I am not saying that you are a fascist, hell, I'm not even saying that either of the others picked up in the comment are fascists. I fully acknowledge that it is a tactic of the far right to create catchy ideas that filter down into the general populace who use them uncritically. My comment's purpose was to get you to think critically about how the language might affect people.

Coming back to sissy, as a sadist myself, I fully acknowledge the value in humiliation play, and that calling a male masochist a sissy is a part of that. I do not have a problem with that word in that context. I didn't really have a problem with your question. You might actually like the patron reward scene that Spawn is finishing up and should be ready before the official free release of the game, because it does kinda put him in such a position, maybe not the way you're hoping for this time, but in a way.

Like I said before, you ended up in the comment merely for the use of the word the brunt of the comment was not aimed at you. If your intent was not ill then I apologize for making you feel personally attacked, I simply want to have positive conversations about this game and it's content, and feel that is difficult to do in an environment where the very premise feels under attack.

One day I was in gender studies class and we were having a discussion on privilege and equality. The topic of "rape culture" came up and the teacher asked if we could think of ways to reduce/prevent rape and someone suggested we start aborting male babies so they can't grow up to be rapists. I remember looking around waiting for somebody anybody to point out how evil that is but also stupid and sexist but they were all cheering. This was just one instance. The following day I dropped that class.
That's a horrible story, and not one I or any real feminist would agree with. If you play my other game, I've already begun to paint a group of radfems, the type of people who think all sex is rape, as villains. So you and I would be in agreement that this type of eugenic behavior is nothing short of fascism. I do not think women should be above men, I don't think I should have to say that, but clearly you had 1 bad experience with feminism and seem to have used that to draw inaccurate conclusions about me based on my language.

To expand on some of the ridiculousness that Robert brought up, I know science is clear that gender is not binary, it is bimodal. This means that there is a spectrum. And anyone who thinks gender is just about the flip of a switch on someone's SRY gene (which all it does is determine penis or no penis) is a silly person who ignores reality. So, aborting all babies that would be assigned male at birth would only eliminate the men that are born with the SRY gene flipped, and wouldn't kill all men. Furthermore, I know that women are just as capable, though admittedly less likely, of committing rape. A dear friend of my family suffered sexual assaults from her female babysitter. So yes, as Robert said, it's illogical on so many levels.

I think it is highly unlikely that feminists would really care about "sissy" one way or another because it does neither reinforce nor does it negatively impacted the feminism in any way. To my knowledge, feminism is all about female empowerment and gender equality but not female domination so "sissy" would have a very little relevance in that movement. Perhaps I am missing something in here so feel free to enlighten me. *shrugs*
I only quoted this to clear up a slight misunderstanding. Battling toxic masculinity is certainly a part of feminism, and sissy used in a non-sexual context is certainly a part of toxic masculinity. I fully acknowledge though, as I said above, the use was intended as bdsm humiliation language and not as a slur. BDSM can blur lines and make people uncomfortable, however, as long as there is informed enthusiastic consent between both parties I not only take no issue with it, but personally participate. I do still stay away from beta though, because I consider it to be a fascist slur.
 

batman666

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You play a story and you don't have to identify yourself with any of the characters and your so called "beta" is a character that experienced several traumatic situations so obviously he isn't Duke Nukem or Macho Man Randy Savage, he acts more like a normal person would do.
I prefer having a blank canvas where my decisions form the character and perception of the main character. In this game, with the trauma and his rather weak behavior, I feel like the factor of interactivity is completely out of the window. Sure, Duke Nukem or the Macho Man might be at the very extreme end of the masculinity spectrum, but this dude sits at the other side and it made me uncomfortable. I was just giving reasons why it wasn't for me, in a respectful way. I still stated that I liked the renders.

Is the story a no brainer like most of the Novels here? No. Is it for everyone? Obviously not. If you are just in for a quick wank don't play this Novel because the story will let your boner shrink.
It is not automatically a good story just because there is more of a story than in most games. I like games where the story gets a bit more silly and "out there". And I agree, my boner wasn't present throughout my playing session with this game. Didn't say it sucked because of that. Just gave my opinion.

Alpha and beta males are not a thing. Masculinity is not defined by muscle density or lack of empathy. Being a victim of rape does not make one less of a man. Dealing with the psychological damage of that victimhood does not make one less of a man. Not being heterosexual does not make one less of a man.
That's a really idealistic view, but from my experience, reality differs from that perception. You might be right when we're talking about a classic novel or a dramatic film adaption of a story that deals with such serious topics. I guess I was just caught off guard because 99% of the games here have the goal to get people fapping, not to tell a deep or personal story. Not saying there's anything wrong with it. But tbh, I'm not going to F95 to look for deep storytelling. I like quality renders, sexy girls and little details like a nice GUI or deep decision-making. But everyone's different and I'm still wishing you lots of success with your project. :)
 

DarthSeduction

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I prefer having a blank canvas where my decisions form the character and perception of the main character.
People are different, this is not a bad thing. However, since you've decided to be a part of this discussion, rather than leaving a review, I have to assume your purpose is in an attempt to get people to come to your point of view.

I love the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, not 4 as much, but overall, I love them. Why? Because as you say, it is nice to have a blank canvas that is meant to be a role I play. I also play tabletop games, as the game itself should have put up flags for, and what is a tabletop RPG if not an excuse to create a self insert character who does the things you want?

However, at the same time, I love The Witcher series, in which you play as the very defined protagonist Geralt of Rivia. Geralt is not a blank canvas for you to self insert onto. He's very much a more traditional masculine character. Similarly, I quite like the Mass Effect series, however, Shepard, no matter if you play them as Male or Female, Biotic, Engineer, or Soldier, comes off as a typical soldier type. Even though you get to create and mold the look of the character and their abilities to your desires, the character is by no means a self insert.

When it comes to adult games, the majority of my favorites are characters with defined personalities, The Deluca Family, Wicked Choices, Coceter Chronicles, Depraved Awakening. All these games give me choices, but the characters themselves are pretty well defined as is. I've found, what these stories have that self insert stories do not, is actual depth to the characters and stories. Personally, I don't play games for the art, while I think it's an important part of making a good game that your art be good, I have no particular liking for Daz, or for Honey Select. If all I wanted was to see characters fucking, I'd go to pornhub.

No, what I look for in a game, and hope to provide myself, is an emotional experience that leads to a more satisfying release when the sex is involved. One thing a relationship requires is give and take, from both parties. She has to have something she needs from you, you have to have something you need from her, and over the course of a relationship, those needs being met, you get a stronger sense of fulfillment. To drop the flowery language, in my opinion, the orgasms are better. Here's the thing though, that's impossible with a blank canvas.

You can design the love interests to need something all you want, but if your MC has nothing but a dick and a high libido, they're not getting anything from any relationship that they couldn't get from any other hole. What's more, because the MC isn't getting anything from them, but is giving something to them, every single blank canvas relationship in games ends up feeling like a one way "gold digging" relationship. The love interest ends up coming off as a superficial, selfish cunt.

When I decided to start writing games, it was to change the narrative, start bringing in these stories of actual relationships that matter. Sure, this one is dark, but it's dark because the darkness provides a canvas on which incest can easily be painted. Yes, I made the victim the male to challenge the societal norms. Yes, that might make you uncomfortable. No, that's not a bad thing. In fact, while I'm not saying you would be this person, if you would have been ok with the game if the roles were reversed, you need to re-examine yourself, your biases, and otherwise.

That's a really idealistic view, but from my experience, reality differs from that perception.
There's nothing idealistic about this. Scientifically, gender is bi-modal. That means that there is a spectrum between masculine and feminine and people lie somewhere on that spectrum. Alex is certainly near the middle. He's not strong and assertive. But at the same time, he would put himself in between an attacker and his sister, and he'd be satisfied in taking a beating, or even worse, if that meant she got away. If that's not masculine, I don't know what is.

You need to remember, your experience is not everyone's experience. You seem to acknowledge people are different. But you're not yet ready to drop the preconceived biases you have been trained to accept by a society that, even if you don't subscribe to it, is largely built on an Abrahamic religious hegemony. If you study other cultures, you'll find plenty of examples of differing expressions of gender, sexuality and otherwise long before Europeans conquered the world. Native Americans had their Two-Spirits, Indians have a legally recognized 3rd gender, and while it's less commonly expressed these days, after British Colonialism stamped down on it, it does still exist. Japanese culture is constantly fighting against our version of sexual morality from their cultural norms.

In closing, it's fine if this game isn't meant for you. But always keep in mind, your experience is not everyone's experience, and having a different experience does not make it wrong, unhealthy, or worse "degenerate".
 

batman666

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I guess we just have to agree to disagree on quite some fundamental, subjective views concerning different topics. Nonetheless, you seem like a smart person and I respect your opinion 100%. Thanks for making a discussion like this possible without discrediting any other views. :)
 

Robert Monotoli

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Jun 16, 2018
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That's a really idealistic view, but from my experience, reality differs from that perception. You might be right when we're talking about a classic novel or a dramatic film adaption of a story that deals with such serious topics. I guess I was just caught off guard because 99% of the games here have the goal to get people fapping, not to tell a deep or personal story. Not saying there's anything wrong with it. But tbh, I'm not going to F95 to look for deep storytelling. I like quality renders, sexy girls and little details like a nice GUI or deep decision-making. But everyone's different and I'm still wishing you lots of success with your project. :)
Well, I think it is a good thing that we have a greater diversity of games for everyone now, since you say that the kind of game that @DarthSeduction and @HellsPerfectSpawn is working on is 1% of the game that actually tells a deep or personal story. This is a niche they and a few other games like Melody (great game, by the way) are filling in. And, frankly, I'd like to see more romance and more deeper story-telling, though I don't mind sex scenes, quality renders, sexy girls and such. I generally prefer romance route whenever I can in any siblings incest game.

What I really liked in particular about this game, though, is that you are literally controlling both Alexis and Alexander, sister and brother, as the player. You could push them together if you wanted. Or you could just set them apart on their own paths. I can't say I know of any other sibling incest game that does this. And I think this is a very interesting premise.

I think this project is quite an ambition in light of the fact you stated about 99% of the games that doesn't do this which includes probably all of the top 10 games on this forum. For sure, it will be very challenging to penetrate (ironic word :p) the market more deeply given the demographics here and there but I think it is still doable and can make a decent profit, even if this type of games isn't quite lucrative.

In my view, making as much money as you can shouldn't be an overriding goal, although it is certainly an important goal to attain for a business or an occupation. But if you're doing something for money only, you will never be happy or satisfied.
 
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