VN Ren'Py Summer's Gone [S1 Steam + DLC] [Oceanlab]

[BobTheDuck]

It makes no sense to change the script after years, WIAB is no longer on Patreon and another one has a quote from Leia "I got my six from my mother".

He can change the script, decrease or increase the character's characteristics but it won't change the fact that she is a Zane by blood just like William.

Literally, changing the script DOES change whether they are Zanes. Dylan is the Zane with the name. If William and Leia aren't related to Dylan, they aren't Zanes. Unless in Wollust Zane is as common as Smith.

As much as we might think we can second guess Ocean, he will deliver his own S2 Ch1 for SG and his own Ch4 for WiaB that tell the story he's decided is sustainable for all the reasons. We can point out to all the connections we saw from old WiaB pre rework, old SG pre rework, but it's never going back to what it was.

This is a danger of playing a game that is a work in progress; the author is allowed to change their story however they see fit. The difference is here we see the drafts in public and we get attached to the draft. We'll maybe lose bit we like on the way, but if the end result is a thriving game, I'm okay with the authors decisions of necessity.

 

[LHDLLB]

Literally, changing the script DOES change whether they are Zanes. Dylan is the Zane with the name. If William and Leia aren't related to Dylan, they aren't Zanes. Unless in Wollust Zane is as common as Smith.

As much as we might think we can second guess Ocean, he will deliver his own S2 Ch1 for SG and his own Ch4 for WiaB that tell the story he's decided is sustainable for all the reasons. We can point out to all the connections we saw from old WiaB pre rework, old SG pre rework, but it's never going back to what it was.

This is a danger of playing a game that is a work in progress; the author is allowed to change their story however they see fit. The difference is here we see the drafts in public and we get attached to the draft. We'll maybe lose bit we like on the way, but if the end result is a thriving game, I'm okay with the authors decisions of necessity.

While I agree and am fine with Ocean changing the script - even if I might prefer one over the other- to maintain his income or for creative reasons, the change still has to make sense of the story. For all his works to remove any traces of Nika and Nami's original relationship, the story still treats it as something that needs to be hiden, forbiden, a race of impossible odds. Ocean can change what he think it fits on his story better, but he can't change and not change it at the same time.

 

[RNasc4444]

It makes no sense to change the script after years

I nearly shat and pissed myself laughing. You poor sweet soul. How new are you 'round here?

You gotta get caught up with the Ocean lore.

 

[RNasc4444]

This is a danger of playing a game that is a work in progress; the author is allowed to change their story however they see fit. The difference is here we see the drafts in public and we get attached to the draft. We'll maybe lose bit we like on the way, but if the end result is a thriving game, I'm okay with the authors decisions of necessity.

I have to push back a bit on this notion. This is the same argument yossa999 uses and I get it. Of course the dev/writter is allowed to do it but the consequences of constantly retconning the narrative are devastating. Tell me please what other media does this and to this extent? I've already used the manga example. The TV shows example. They can go on for years and years but each new episode/chapter that comes out builds on the existent narrative. It doesn't massively change it.

I get that some people will be bothered by it more than others but can anyone honestly tell me this is an even remotely good way of telling a story?

 

[dameromexxx]

While I agree and am fine with Ocean changing the script - even if I might prefer one over the other- to maintain his income or for creative reasons, the change still has to make sense of the story. For all his works to remove any traces of Nika and Nami's original relationship, the story still treats it as something that needs to be hiden, forbiden, a race of impossible odds. Ocean can change what he think it fits on his story better, but he can't change and not change it at the same time.

Yes, in the Ocean Universe, a romance between two tenants is an unforgivable act. We have a repeat of Three's Company with the unfortunate Nika Tripper all over again. If Nika doesn't have these problems with Mila and Robin, it's really unfair to Nami

 

[The Krogan Dude]

Tell me please what other media does this and to this extent?

Superhero movies.

 

[yossa999]

I have to push back a bit on this notion. This is the same argument yossa999 uses and I get it. Of course the dev/writter is allowed to do it but the consequences of constantly retconning the narrative are devastating. Tell me please what other media does this and to this extent? I've already used the manga example. The TV shows example. They can go on for years and years but each new episode/chapter that comes out builds on the existent narrative. It doesn't massively change it.

I get that some people will be bothered by it more than others but can anyone honestly tell me this is an even remotely good way of telling a story?

Me? Arguments? I just stopped for a second to ask what time it was. If only I knew what I was getting myself into...

You wanna examples?

7 Days To Die - over a decade in Alpha!, you can't be sure that the next update won't change the traits of a certain creature or even the game mechanics. In the previous version, you could dig an underground shelter and hungry zombies wouldn't find you, and in the next update, those bitches will dig up your ass and eat it.

Space engineers - another update and you can't figure out why your ship is now spinning like a top with the engines off.

Movies? Have you ever seen how at the end of some movies, when the credits roll, they put up a montage of the bad takes or the scenes that they cut out of the movie? Well, we're at the stage where the movie is just being shot and these bad takes or scenes that are going to be cut out are being made. It's early access not a finished product.

 

[Dr.TSoni]

Literally, changing the script DOES change whether they are Zanes. Dylan is the Zane with the name. If William and Leia aren't related to Dylan, they aren't Zanes. Unless in Wollust Zane is as common as Smith.

You are a Zane
And you
And you

 

[BobTheDuck]

I have to push back a bit on this notion. This is the same argument yossa999 uses and I get it. Of course the dev/writter is allowed to do it but the consequences of constantly retconning the narrative are devastating. Tell me please what other media does this and to this extent? I've already used the manga example. The TV shows example. They can go on for years and years but each new episode/chapter that comes out builds on the existent narrative. It doesn't massively change it.

I get that some people will be bothered by it more than others but can anyone honestly tell me this is an even remotely good way of telling a story?

Every single book that has been written has had this process. Especially once the publishers say, "hey we can't print your 1500 page book, but we can do 2 700 page books, and we'll print the second once we see there's interest in the first. You'll need to have a cliffhanger there." Or film. Why are there directors cuts? Because the director shot th film they wanted, then the executives said, "no get it under 120min kthnx, oh and lose that scene, you know, that one. It's central to the plot? Not according to our test screening".

The difference with TV is (like an AVN) it's pushed into the public space as episodes. Difference with the tv show to an AVN is that it still has a whole bunch or writing drafts in private. AVN's are the only form where I see creators publishing drafts. The early access mentality on gaming platforms legitimised this idea.

I'm not saying this is good practice, just that it isn't unusual for this kind of media.

THe other issue is every other form of content has executive teams that send the drafts back, while AVN writers are there own IT, HR, finance department etc. They're not just making the story up as they go along, they're making up their whole business model as a draft, stumbling along the way. It's less than ideal, but again, I can understand why it happens, and if it's too hit and miss, I can drop it and find something more consistent to play/read.

 

[RNasc4444]

Every single book that has been written has had this process. Especially once the publishers say, "hey we can't print your 1500 page book, but we can do 2 700 page books, and we'll print the second once we see there's interest in the first. You'll need to have a cliffhanger there." Or film. Why are there directors cuts? Because the director shot th film they wanted, then the executives said, "no get it under 120min kthnx, oh and lose that scene, you know, that one. It's central to the plot? Not according to our test screening".

The difference with TV is (like an AVN) it's pushed into the public space as episodes. Difference with the tv show to an AVN is that it still has a whole bunch or writing drafts in private. AVN's are the only form where I see creators publishing drafts. The early access mentality on gaming platforms legitimised this idea.

I'm not saying this is good practice, just that it isn't unusual for this kind of media.

THe other issue is every other form of content has executive teams that send the drafts back, while AVN writers are there own IT, HR, finance department etc. They're not just making the story up as they go along, they're making up their whole business model as a draft, stumbling along the way. It's less than ideal, but again, I can understand why it happens, and if it's too hit and miss, I can drop it and find something more consistent to play/read.

Every example I've read just shows me you guys suck at analogies Not a fair comparison in the bunch.

How is a damn movie in which the narrative is based on time travel and changing past events compare to SG or WiAB? (to address the not so clever superhero movies retort) How can you compare a test release, a screening for audiences or investors to a released AVN? There is already a published product here. A complete season 1 for which the developper has been charging money for years. It's not the same thing. A fair comparison would be releasing a movie in the theaters, having audience member buy tickets and watch it, then midway through the movie suddenly Act 1 has changed, one actor was recast and not a single explanation is given as to why the protagonists relationship with other characters completely changed.

Same with a book. Only the final version is published and monetized. Even if some revisions are made in future reprints and editions, they don't fucking turn the entire story or its characters on its head. And when a sequel comes out, 99.99% of the time it doesn't retroactively change the original.

But whatever this is just my opinion. We are allowed to disagree on this

 

[yossa999]

[...]A complete season 1 for which the developper has been charging money for years.[...]

That's how crowdfunding works. Only you are wrong, you do not buy anything from the developer, but financially help him in development and receive various privileges for this, like early access to beta versions of the game, roles in Discord and other bells and whistles.

Now that the first season is finished, published and sold as a standalone, complete entity, I agree that plot changes in it would be very strange. But it seems like no one is going to do that?

 

[BobTheDuck]

Every example I've read just shows me you guys suck at analogies Not a fair comparison in the bunch.

How is a damn movie in which the narrative is based on time travel and changing past events compare to SG or WiAB? (to address the not so clever superhero movies retort) How can you compare a test release, a screening for audiences or investors to a released AVN? There is already a published product here. A complete season 1 for which the developper has been charging money for years. It's not the same thing. A fair comparison would be releasing a movie in the theaters, having audience member buy tickets and watch it, then midway through the movie suddenly Act 1 has changed, one actor was recast and not a single explanation is given as to why the protagonists relationship with other characters completely changed.

Same with a book. Only the final version is published and monetized. Even if some revisions are made in future reprints and editions, they don't fucking turn the entire story or its characters on its head. And when a sequel comes out, 99.99% of the time it doesn't retroactively change the original.

But whatever this is just my opinion. We are allowed to disagree on this

There are multiple versions of monetised films. But I can recognise I'm nitpicking.

Maybe a better analogy then for you is building a house; you get progress checks, and see where the plasterer cut corners, or someone didn't follow the plan (far too common), or the price of material goes beyond the contract and there needs a variation. There are plenty of products that are monetised in various stages of completion. I don't see why this is a surprise with how long you've been around AVN's. It happens, and it's happened to a lot of games recently because of patreon. Ocean's being overly cautious maybe, but it's understandable even if it's not the desired outcome.

 

[RNasc4444]

That's how crowdfunding works. Only you are wrong, you do not buy anything from the developer, but financially help him in development and receive various privileges for this, like early access to beta versions of the game, roles in Discord and other bells and whistles.

Now that the first season is finished, published and sold as a standalone, complete entity, I agree that plot changes in it would be very strange. But it seems like no one is going to do that?

Fair enough. But let me ask you this. If at any point in S2 or any future seasons, Ocean retcons any aspect from the already finished and published S1, will you agree with me? Or admit that I had a point?

Not looking for a "gotcha" here or to eventually throw an "I told you so" at your face. I just don't trust Ocean to not keep tampering with the established narrative and I'm trying to figure out why most people disagree with my points on how the story is being told.

 

[yossa999]

Fair enough. But let me ask you this. If at any point in S2 or any future seasons, Ocean retcons any aspect from the already finished and published S1, will you agree with me? Or admit that I had a point?

Not looking for a "gotcha" here or to eventually throw an "I told you so" at your face. I just don't trust Ocean to not keep tampering with the established narrative and I'm trying to figure out why most people disagree with my points on how the story is being told.

Haha, I wouldn't bet a dead mouse on that! Because he practically promised to do it, and on this very forum.

I can't find the post right now, but he let it slip that as the story progresses, some old scenes will appear in a completely different light, or even take on a meaning that is the opposite of what they mean now.

And then, without changing anything in the first season, you can easily add to or change the meaning of certain scenes with flashbacks or new scenes that expand on old ones. In Lost, for example, they did this all the time.

What if the damn raccoon isn't just an Easter egg, but the spirit of the dead Summer?

 

[BobTheDuck]

Fair enough. But let me ask you this. If at any point in S2 or any future seasons, Ocean retcons any aspect from the already finished and published S1, will you agree with me? Or admit that I had a point?

Not looking for a "gotcha" here or to eventually throw an "I told you so" at your face. I just don't trust Ocean to not keep tampering with the established narrative and I'm trying to figure out why most people disagree with my points on how the story is being told.

I'll admit you have a point now - I'm not disagreeing but saying there are multiple ways to see this situation. I would prefer OCean to spend more time delivering nw content that second guessing the older content at this point, but if that's what's required, I'll just grin and bear it. Far more disturbing to me is the addition of multiple clothing styles to cause a massive spike in required renders for no major reason other than it's possible. That's my pet hate.

As far as the way the story's being told, it's partially because we weight the different aspects differently. I didn't rate the jacuzzi scene as important to character development while other people do. I prefer Nami now, while other people prefer her earlier. So in a sense, the changes have opened up parts of the story to me that I ignored earlier because of my preferences. Given that, there is no one way to understand whether it's be successful or not, noly whether you find it enjoyable to continue reading.

 

[RNasc4444]

Haha, I wouldn't bet a dead mouse on that! Because he practically promised to do it, and on this very forum.

I can't find the post right now, but he let it slip that as the story progresses, some old scenes will appear in a completely different light, or even take on a meaning that is the opposite of what they mean now.

And then, without changing anything in the first season, you can easily add to or change the meaning of certain scenes with flashbacks or new scenes that expand on old ones. In Lost, for example, they did this all the time.

What if the damn raccoon isn't just an Easter egg, but the spirit of the dead Summer?

 

[litbnwo]

Any news on S2?

 

[dlaskas]

Any news on S2?

late 2031, if we're lucky.
Ocean wants to make sure he releases S2 as a whole at once.
...

 

[underoath27]

Hey, did Ocean said who are all the LIs?

 

[yossa999]

Any news on S2?

If you're asking about the first chapter of S2, the only thing Ocean wrote was that it would be out later this year. But judging by the latest devlogs, the work is far from finished, so I probably wouldn't put much hope in it. Most likely, it will be early next year, imho.
If you mean the whole second season, I don't think anyone knows, including the dev.